Took a girl I met at a party last week out for coffee. She's very smart and mature for her age but seems very shy and straight up said she was an introvert. I did the whole seductive listening and eye contact thing. Our table was small so I positioned my hands on the table very close to hers, grazing at times. I even reached out for her hand and started caressing it cause according to 60 years of challenge that's way better than going for a kiss. She didn't resist but she didn't reciprocate at all. We talked about a lot of non-superficial things and I for the most part let her break all the pauses in the conversation and also let her break the tension by letting her look away first. Then we went for a quick walk around the block cause it was nice out but asides from placing my hand on her back while crossing the street we didn't even hold hands. Few questions:

1) Do I just pull my hand away and keep trying to get mutual hand caressing?

2) How do I smoothly try to hold her hand while walking? Just grabbing it seems really abrupt.

3) 60 years of challenge seems to say just shut up and stare. Obviously you can't do that 100% otherwise it's just legit creepy and weird but how much talking is too much? Or better question, how much is too LITTLE? She definitely made an effort to fill those silences but we definitely had a few that were just awkward and uncomfortable.

4) Am I fucked (friend zoned) for not escalating enough? As she was getting out of the car after I drove her home she did say next time let's do X but I can't tell if she was just being nice. Maybe some shyer girls you just gotta take it slow and I did fine. Or maybe I'm just a pussy. You guys tell me.

When you hold her hand, don't let go until she pulls back the second time. On the first pull back, pull her closer. She'll get a shocked look on her face. If she pulls back for the second time after a few seconds, let her hand go. Usually, it's going to take several minutes before a girl pulls back her hand for the second time.

As you're holding her hand for several minutes, start with plain holding and then caressing her hand. Just caress her hand until she pulls back for the second time. After several minutes of no hand holding but continuous sticky eyes with the girl, you hold her hand again. Proceed to caress. This time she shouldn't be pulling back for a longer time. If this is the case, escalate by intertwining your fingers with hers. If she's comfortable with that for a few minutes, escalate by placing her hand at your knee. Just let it rest there. After a few minutes and she's still comfortable with it, escalate by rubbing her hands on your knee.

If she's comfortable with that for a few minutes, escalate by placing her hand at your thigh. Let it rest there for a few minutes. If she's comfortable with that, use her hand to rub on your thigh. Take it slow. Make her comfortable until you're rubbing her hand at your thigh just near where your cock is.

The rhythm is rest-rub-rest-rub-rest-rub.

The escalation points are:

1. Sitting down - her hand --> her fingers --> your knee --> your lower thigh --> your upper thigh --> your crotch --> your cock

2. Standing up - her hand --> her fingers --> your forearm --> your biceps --> your chest --> your abs --> your crotch --> your cock

The conversation part is quite long and complicated. What is important though is to focus on the nonverbals I described above. You can join my Trello Board if you want to address the convo part. This way, I can reuse the huge material on conversations that I have given to several newbies in the past. And maybe develop new ones for specific situations I have never addressed in my advices before.

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I just think coffee dates are shitty in general. I know there's a debate about it, but I think it's best to avoid them.

Maybe she's shy, maybe she's not into you. Time will tell.

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Why did you take her to a coffee?

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WTF is it with all the coffee dates? Is it a marketing ploy?

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Bad news. I just woke up to a text saying basically this:

"Hey, I was under the impression that I was just there to help you learn Spanish but you made it clear you thought it was a date. I don't feel the same way about you. Also, I would like you to learn Spanish from someone else."

Turns out she was just being polite mentioning "next time" when she did not want a "next time" at all. It doesn't really surprise me so I'm not too upset. At least she was honest and didn't leave me with false hope.

I'm sitting here scratching my head trying to pinpoint what went wrong. Either I did not attract her enough at the party (spent like two hours talking to her without much kino) or I did something wrong during our "date". I'm thinking it's more the "date" cause if she was 100% uninterested and actually thought she was just there to help me learn Spanish she wouldn't even meet up with me. Also she didn't pull her hand away when I caressed it, but did pull her hand away when I tried to grab her hand to lead her away from a puddle (forgot to mention this). So it must be something I did during the "date" that either creeped her out (staring too much, too many uncomfortable silences) or something I didn't do that as a result failed to attract her (not be persistent enough with kino).

What's wrong with coffee dates? Good set up for kino if the table is small, you aren't paying $30 for what could be a failed date and great for when you only have an hour.

Monsignor what's up with this Trello thing? Can you PM me? Also you said if the second time you hold her hand and she pulls back quickly, let it go. As in give up and accept the fact that she's probably not interested? Or try again in a few minutes? I'm trying to figure out where the line is between persistence and harassment.

Next time, escalate early before going on a date. Coffee dates are only good for instadates.

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Approach. Open. Escalate. Isolate

Here are my two essential rules on texting that will save you tons of time and money:

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Coffee dates are for friends, hence where the confusion may have possibly arose.

First things first..

Not every failure to escalate on the first time attempts result in you not getting laid. Upon the girl developing more comfort with you on later dates you can still make this happen. This only would suggest that the girl may be a bit more closed off than others and that you could just use a bit more work on your game.

Also, its not about the "mutual hand caressing" or the "kiss" that you're looking for. It's the right vibe. You can still kiss a girl successfully and never hear from her again if the vibe wasn't right prior to the kiss. You can sleep with a girl and the same thing could happen. Many guys come to the forums and report a girl going missing after the one night stand.

So when you're focusing on the physical contact that you're reading about instead of focusing on the connection you can run into this from time to time. If you're only touching her because a book told you, the touch will likely be null. You have to get yourself into the mind state in which you actually want to touch her. More so than touching her to get to a desired goal.

Its common first date problems for the average guy. Give it another go around and things should loosen up a bit.

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Since it appears that you're not yet well calibrated, I would like to clarify the following:

If she pulls back quickly (a few seconds) the first time, she's not interested. Let her hand go. It's harassment if you persist. You could get into trouble with the law if you hold her hand again the second time.

If she pulls back after awhile (more than one minute) the first time, don't let go. Pull her a little closer. Not too much, just a little. Continue with your conversation and sticky eyes like you didn't notice.

If she pulls back the second time after some 2-3 minutes or more of escalation on her hand, let her go. After awhile, she's going to miss the comfort of handholding. Hold her hand again after (this is a rough estimate) 3-5 minutes of NO handholding. The odds that she won't pull back her hand as fast is higher in your favor after the first handholding with proper escalation.

Btw, op. Are you the same guy here:

general-questions/how-are-you-supposed- ... 00780.html

If you have been doing your sprints for awhile, create a new gmail address and pm it to me so we can work on your convo sticking points. If not, don't bother. I don't want to waste my time on people who don't take action. If yes, I'll get you on board Trello soon enough.

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Approach. Open. Escalate. Isolate

Here are my two essential rules on texting that will save you tons of time and money:

general-questions/topic137931.html

YES! Something clicked. It's all about the vibe, not about following 60 years of challenge religiously. I was under the impression that even if the vibe is off, kino/sticky eyes would still create attraction when really it probably just makes girls I'm not vibing well with feel creeped out and uncomfortable. And sometimes the vibe being off is probably not 100% my fault cause some people are just not compatible with each other. The vibe was definitely off yesterday. Everything felt forced and although we talked about some interesting stuff, the overall mood was just not fun. I should probably focus on having fun instead of "omg omg I have to touch her or stare at her until she's creeped out cause some book said looking away first makes you a pussy". Because if I'm worried more about following a book than actually enjoying the moment she will sense that and it's super unattractive.

Now I know what to (not) do next time. Thanks Eddie.