This will probably turn out long. I've been lurking this forum for some time, so Eddie, R.C, Charlie and everyone else, take a few mins and help a brother out.

Hi guys,

You know you're fucked when you create an account specifically to ask about one girl. Goddamn.
Anyway, I've been seeing a coworker for a few weeks. To keep it short, she's office eye candy, smart, cute, all that. We're a good match for each other - or so I think. She's very affectionate and receptive when we're together, but she gives mixed signals otherwise. Either that or I'm being paranoid.

For example, we were supposed to go out last Thursday. While walking home, she said she can't make it tonight but is available Friday. I said Friday doesn't work for me so she said she's available Saturday as well. 2 counter offers on her part, so that's good right?

Saturday comes along:
Me: Yo, half cute girl. You available tonight?
Her: *very cute girl. and yes.
Her: but only later tonight cuz I have some things to do
Me: That's fine, I'm busy up until 21. So 21:30?
Her: don't know, I need to attend a bday party at 19:30 and not sure how long it'll last
Me: A'right, let me know when you're done and we'll see if it works for me
Her(@ 21): Can't make it tonight. Coffee at your place tomorrow morning?
Me(@ 1 am): Sure. See you tomorrow.


She follows up, comes by my place and we have a great time. Before she leaves, I tell her we're going out Wednesday and she agrees.

So yesterday morning we talk a little bit, I say I'll see her tonight and will call when I leave the office. She was working from home. And I do. I call, she doesn't pickup but texts that she's with her brother to the mall and will call me when she gets home.
I trust my gut, don't hold my breath and go out with a few friends. She texts me over facebook at 22:30:

Her: whats <petname> doing?
Me: he's doing fine, what's <petname> doing?
Her: she just got home 10 mins ago
Her: :-*
Her: and she's dead tired
Her: :-*
Me: Great. Go make yourself cute and get over here
Her: I'd love to make myself cute
Her: that's why I had a bath
Her: so my hair is wet


In hindsight I probably shouldn't have invited her over. I mean I wasn't even at home, but I just wanted to confirm the flake is a flake indeed. I didn't reply anymore after this snippet. I mean I don't get it. Fine, you flaked, but why are you then initiating a conversation with me if you have no intention on anything other than throwing more excuses my way?

She's been at my place 2 times before. First time things got hot but we didn't have sex. Some LMR's and I kind of choked, but then again I'm in no rush.

Second time was Sunday, but she was on her period. We were making out heavily and she had no issue with me running my hand all over her body. She was also very affectionate, acting as if she was my girlfriend.
We have a conversation about relationships in general and she says it's not ok to go for someone if they're in a relationship. I tell her it's irrelevant if someone has a partner or not, because if you like them you should go for it. Anyway, as we make out she asks with a grin on her face "So is what we're doing here relevant?" I brush it off playfully.


I don't get her behavior. She shows massive attraction, she escalates with me, initiates kino, grabs my hand while we walk on the street... and then this?
I have 2 theories.
Firstly, up until a few days ago she's been the one chasing. Initiating more, all that. I always kinda playfully kept her at bay and didn't give her much validation. Worked like a charm. Recently though I may have started giving her a bit more attention, not sure if it was a wise choice.

Secondly, by my demeanor and everything she knows I'm not necessarily the relationship type of guy. That's because I'm really "picky" and it takes a lot to make me wanna commit. I'm liking her a lot so far so this possibility is not out of the question. Except she doesn't know that. Can my stance on the matter possibly scare her off?


At the same time since we work together I know she's in a very stressful period with the job. Overtime everyday, working weekends, etc. I guess that's a factor as well. Maybe she forgot with all that going on. Happens to me sometimes.
Don't know what to think here. This is the first flake with no reschedule on her side. But flakes with reschedules don't make me that entirely happy either.


This morning as we were going to work (we share a car with a few other coworkers) she asked if everything's alright with me, because I seem a bit upset. I was pissed but not at her. Slept really bad because my roommate turned the heat up to 28 degrees for some reason and it was a damn sauna up in that apartment. I'm not entirely pleased with her behavior either but I'm by no means that affected by it. I think brushing flakes off like they never even happened the best approach. Confronting her on it would be counter-productive in my opinion.


So yeah, what's going on here? How can someone show so much interest in person and then get so and so over texts?
Since we live in the same area I might walk with her home after work today. Gauge at her reactions a little bit, see if she's receptive towards kissing as we usually do. Either way tomorrow I'm going on a ski trip till Tuesday and I'm probably gonna go ghost on her until then, regardless of how it goes.

This sounds very similar to a situation I am having.

The girl would be very affectionate in person, talking about things we are going to
do in the future and all that stuff, but via text or when we weren't together it would
be a different story. I think some girls are just like that.

Maybe switching to calling her a few times a week is a better option?

With my situation she also flaked out on me about 3 times, rescheduled each time and
we continue to meet up... Seems like odd behavior to me so I'm interested to see what the experts think. She always initiates the meets too, I never do.

I was a bit too attached with the girl I am dating but I have managed to get my head straight and it's
gone from potential oneitis to just another girl and that has really helped me out.

I'd say back off a bit, maybe call instead of text and just see if she chases or initiates meet ups.

I need to get my head straight too. It's not affecting me.when I'm directly with her. Fortunately. It does when I'm not though.

It's just weird. If she has plans to go out with her friends she always invites me along. Went a few time. Her girl friends loved me and her brother was buying me.drinks at the end of the night. I just see no logical reason that can explain this.

I think you're the problem here, not the girl.

This isn't a compliment, but the way you ask her out is too alpha "yo, come over" - people are busy and yet you think she wasting your time, but in fact you're just not being considerate of her time.

Why don't you text her like this instead:

"Hey, I wanna see you this week, which days are best for you?"

This way you can pick an choose a date. Please make sure it isn't a friggin morning day time day, make sure she isn't with her friends that night. Make sure it's just YOU AND HER. Don't meet her if you are the 2nd best option. Dont lose man points.

If she starts to flake on a very well scheduled plan with you. Then you know you're in damage control. But if she meets up with you. Then happy days. Go grocery shopping together, Cook a nice meal together at your place. Get some wine and a nice DVD.

Escalate and get around the LMR. Job done. If she wants to "determine the relationship" - tell her the truth that you're picky but you're not against the idea as long as she ticks all of your boxes

So stop being lazy. Stop with the alpha Bravado. Empaphise with her schedule and act accordingly. Good luck

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You know, I did take that possibility into consideration. You may be right, but look at the first text convo. I asked if she's available. She said yes. Then proceeded to flake. I mean how do you not know you have a birthday party? and if you know, why do you say you're available?
The problem I have with something like this is getting a "Don't know, will let you know" type of reply. Then again that makes it pretty obvious her interest is low so I can just move along without wasting much time and energy. Right?

I probably will try that next week. You're right about losing man points too. I'm kinda a social guy so I knew I'd have little issues with befriending her friends / brother and thought that can only work in my favor after all. But yea, job done in that regard. Won't do it again unless things get more serious between us.

I appreciate your criticism as it indeed provided some insight, but I still cannot explain the seemingly huge contrast between her behaviors.

Lol.

I threw up in my mouth a little.. This is a possibility? You're making a post about her. Its not longer a possibility lol.

And she DOES know. What makes you think she doesn't? Because you didn't look her square in the eyes, and spell it out for her plainly? Give me a break. Women are intuitive. They operate on intuition and sub communication, they are not direct and to the point like we are.

So they aren't listening to your words per say, they are interpreting the meaning behind your words. Just as the would do with their girlfriends. This is why women think "men are stupid" and men think " Women are stupid". We don't understand the basics of their intuitive communication the way their girlfriends do. And they don't understand our logical and philosophical conversation.

She knows bro. You can't hide what you feel unless you speak women (which we should all learn to) and communicate only what you want them to know.

A chick is going to exploit any amount of wiggle room you give her. So because she knows, based on what she has analyzed about you, that she can GET AWAY with a couple flakes hear and there and still keep your interest, she will use what was given. Its like sick days at a job. You would never call out of your job three days in a row because you know if you did they would FIRE YOU. But you'll call out one day here and there, because you have wiggle room to do so. You can enjoy some leisure and still keep your position. Now lets say you were the best employee the company ever seen; and they let you KNOW this.. You would call out two or three days in a row because you know and they've shown you in subtle ways that they NEED your contribution.

So thats all thats going on here. She's only operating from the wiggle room that you have given her. She has sick days.. She's using them. You've made it clear enough to her that her contribution to your life is valuable enough that she can get away with certain behavior. Its simple.

Now how does the "job" fix this problem? ITs tough. If they need you they need you. They would have to find a better employee to replace you, or thats at least be competitive with you so that they can take away some wiggle room. Or they can just say "fuck it.. you're fired. I believe we're a great enough company and i'm a great enough boss to train someone new to be just as good".

You're the boss bro. She's only doing what you let her.

Anymore questions?

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BINGO - you got it

Asking her out in a aloof way isn't gonna make an uninterested girl suddenly interested. The only thing it does is waste time.

The way I ask girls is that I put on the pressure and force her to meet or procrastinate. But you soon find out where you stand. It's the same logic as escalating. You know if she is a time waster or not by her reaction.

If I get the "I don't know, will let you know" I will not text her. If she is interested she will send the "hey how are you? X" - if not, then I move on with life.

If she messages you on FB, don't give her much attention. Just answer her briefly (or not at all) and don't ask her anything. She will get the jist that you're more formal, serious and busy don't even mention that she didn't get back to you.

Regarding the birthday party Flake, Sometimes girls need to cancel but still doesn't mean she can be still interested. Stay postive. It's hard to get context from your post. But you can just tell when a girl likes you. Especially when she messages you on FB so it's worth to stay positive and not ditch her because of one cancellation, if she cancels 2/3 times. I will stop asking.

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Lol.

I threw up in my mouth a little.. This is a possibility? You're making a post about her. Its not longer a possibility lol.

And she DOES know. What makes you think she doesn't? Because you didn't look her square in the eyes, and spell it out for her plainly? Give me a break. Women are intuitive. They operate on intuition and sub communication, they are not direct and to the point like we are.

So they aren't listening to your words per say, they are interpreting the meaning behind your words. Just as the would do with their girlfriends. This is why women think "men are stupid" and men think " Women are stupid". We don't understand the basics of their intuitive communication the way their girlfriends do. And they don't understand our logical and philosophical conversation.

She knows bro. You can't hide what you feel unless you speak women (which we should all learn to) and communicate only what you want them to know.

A chick is going to exploit any amount of wiggle room you give her. So because she knows, based on what she has analyzed about you, that she can GET AWAY with a couple flakes hear and there and still keep your interest, she will use what was given. Its like sick days at a job. You would never call out of your job three days in a row because you know if you did they would FIRE YOU. But you'll call out one day here and there, because you have wiggle room to do so. You can enjoy some leisure and still keep your position. Now lets say you were the best employee the company ever seen; and they let you KNOW this.. You would call out two or three days in a row because you know and they've shown you in subtle ways that they NEED your contribution.

So thats all thats going on here. She's only operating from the wiggle room that you have given her. She has sick days.. She's using them. You've made it clear enough to her that her contribution to your life is valuable enough that she can get away with certain behavior. Its simple.

Now how does the "job" fix this problem? ITs tough. If they need you they need you. They would have to find a better employee to replace you, or thats at least be competitive with you so that they can take away some wiggle room. Or they can just say "fuck it.. you're fired. I believe we're a great enough company and i'm a great enough boss to train someone new to be just as good".

You're the boss bro. She's only doing what you let her.

Anymore questions?

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Yeah. How do I not let her do it? I can understand if it happens from time to time, sick days, it's not like we don't have personal lives. I just don't want it to become habit or happen 3 days in a row as per you analogy.

Both you and PEEBLE make valid points but with different approaches. He suggests offering her that wiggle room as a way of determining where you stand, you suggest (by what I understand) not doing that.

Of-course I think I can find someone just as good, but that involves time and effort. I can, but like any good employer, I'd rather become more competitive. So in that regard, I should become less available myself. Right?

I mean this feels like a burned out light bulb. It's just a bulb, you replace the thing not buy a different house. Now if the foundation starts going to shit, than yeah, time to find a different place.

I consider Peb a brother on these forums, but I disagree with him strongly here.

There more wiggle room you give, the more shit you have to deal with. Of course we're humans with lives, but YOUR JOB doesn't want to hear your excuses.. Even if they are valid. Now depending on your position they will opt to hear a few, but even then, you have but so many.. Even if its " My mom passed".. And I feel like I'm more important to any woman than her job. That job uses you just for labor, it may come or it may go, but I will still be here. And I complete your life and give you energy. Your job takes it. I'm more valuable. If a woman had to choose between me and her job, I believe I'm valuable enough that she would choose me. So I take less excuses, and because this is my frame.. I don't have to hear excuses.

Give someone a foot and they take you a mile.

I love the women in my life, and I love them enough to NOT allow them to make me unhappy (by doing things like flaking), because if they make me unhappy, it will have a negative influence on our relationship. As the leader, my unhappiness will make her unhappy. So I have to protect my happiness by limiting the wiggle room. And so if I'm happy and I'm the leader, I have no choice but to make the one I'm leading happy. They may not always like it in the moment, but they will love you for it later.

You know that professor or teacher who was tough.. Gave NO wiggle room to miss any assignments? You always respected that teacher, you loved that teacher, and you were always on time to class because you didn't want to disappoint that teacher. You didn't always like the teacher, because they were TOUGH, but you loved them, respected them, and credit them for part of your evolution. Now what about the teacher that just lets you do whatever you wanted? Sure they're cooler, but you don't learn as much. You probably don't remember anything they've taught you once the class was over. And You may even laugh at them with your friends.. Same concept.

Too much wiggle room has been the DOOM of almost every relationship I have worked with guys on. Once they limit that wiggle room, the respect is there, and a woman can only love a man that she respects.

The wiggle room shit is cool in the beginning, its like " I'm FREE.. WEEEEEE" but then its like " Theres no structure...no respect.. I need a MAN. I can't do this"

Be loving, be gentle, but also be strict. Women will love you for it.

And in no way am I saying that you have to fire her, or get a new girl.. It was a metaphor. What you need is a mentality switch. You have to be WILLING to fire her or WILLING to hire someone new. Take a 2 day break from contacting her and get your mind together. Wrap your head around what I said.

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Hey, look, I got a shoutout. I gotta say though I'm quite offended to have my name next to that Eddie guy and Charles.
Kidding, I love you guys.

Man, what it is with everyone dating coworkers of late? I swear it's becoming a trend around this forum.
OP my man, there's a book called "How to make logical sense of women". It has one page with 2 words on it:
"You can't".

Here's the deal. Men talk primarily to trade information. Women talk primarily to fluctuate emotion.
If a man says "We're having beers next Saturday", you better believe you're having beers next Saturday.
If a woman says "We're hanging out next Saturday", what she means is "Right now I feel like I want to hang out with you next Saturday".

When we make a decision it's 80% logical, 15% emotional and 5% external factors. You're hot, I wanna fuck you. Today, next week, 2 years from now. As long as the premise doesn't change(aka you let yourself go), neither does our decision.

When she makes a decision it's 80% emotional, 15% logical and 5% external factors. Right now she's feeling a really strong connection with you and will say yes to just about anything, but later her roommate left the dishes unwashed again so her mood is completely ruined and she doesn't want to talk to anybody. I exaggerate a bit for effect, but the point that needs to be taken from this is that these things do affect their decision making in ways we simply cannot relate to.
You could get fired right now and still go on a date with her and have a great time regardless. Having a dick does that to you. That thing is like a sociopath constantly urging you to "Do it do it fuck it do it".

Like Eddie said, that's why women think we're stupid and we think they're crazy. She can throw the biggest fit right now that you're "going out with your friends again" today, and then in the most loving and genuine way encourage you to have "guys' night" tomorrow. In the first case she feels emotionally neglected. In the second she feels secure.

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I understand the logic behind it, I don't understand the "how to". How do I be strict? It's not like I can call her out on it without seeming needy, because it feels needy. Maybe if I do it in a playful manner to let her know I value my time, but whenever you have to yell "I am the king" you're no real king, right?

So that leaves actions instead of words. The only way I can think of showing that willingness is being true to myself and restricting the amount of attention I give to her until I feel she deserves more.

I don't even understand all these metaphors to even defend the disagreement lol

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This makes so much sense it's as disturbing as it is reassuring. So you think flakes are sometimes a result of her emotional state at the time?

Well, yeah, in a sense. She knows she can't do it 2-3 times in a row without losing you, which will generate another emotional response in her and if she is interested (aka does not want to lose you) she will act accordingly.

That's why I hate it when people say shit like "Well, think of it like this. If you were Channing Tatum or Brad Pitt would she flake?". Fuck yea she will.

I really can compete with Eddie's metaphor. I mean look at me, I'm writting this while at work. If she starts feeling valuable to you, she will at times slack a bit. It's human nature to get comfortable. But it still is a risky move and you just have to remind her of that.

Think about texting. You have a flowing conversation and then send a "risky" text. Whatever it may be. She suddenly stops responding. Doesn't even matter if it's on purpose or just a coincidence, because at that moment your hamster starts spinning. And the more time passes, the worse it gets, right? Same shit here. If you take away your attention for a little while she'll start panicking and will be less inclined "take you for granted" so to speak.

_________________
I know my place. It's me on top of the world.

My in depth texting & dating guide.
There's no such thing as shit-tests.
How to keep a girl.