Irrelevant?

Relevant to some degree?

Relevant @ first, and becomes less important as she gets to know you?

Something else?

I think in terms of looks there are things that are outside of your control. These are genetics. Stuff like height, face etc. These ones you should not worry about because you can't change them. You have to accept this as being unhappy about things you can't change will make you miserable.
Now the other part are the things you can change. These are, dress, grooming, physical health, body shape etc. You should always try to maximise the things you can control. Try to look your best, try to dress as best and stylish you can (don't confuse this with peacocking), do physical activities, hit the gym, stuff like that.
Looks matter a lot. In the beginning of a relationship and in the relationship.
The thing is the girl might like you in a t-shirt and sweatpants with a beer gut. But the same girl will like you a lot more in a tailored shirt with smart jeans and muscular shoulders because that shows to her that you take good care about yourself and you will be able to take care of her.
I know that gurus say that good game is worth more than good looks. What they forget to say is if you have two guys with the similar sort of game guess who will win...
Always work to be your best self, inside and outside.

Looks are very important.

Decent looks + turn women on + masculine behaviors = game.

I tell guys that looks will determine the quality (physical wise) of women they get, "game" will determine how many they get and how fast they get them. Some guys will disagree with this because they have been brainwashed by the "gurus" (read: marketers) into thinking any ugly guy can sleep with models. While you can get women whos better looking that you, they wont often be that much more better looking. If we put it on a 1 - 10 scale, without money or a lot of social status, you will rarely get a women thats 3+ points above you in looks. This is why I tell every guy to max out his looks.

Here is why a lot of "gurus" say looks don't matter. Marketing. The community is filled with less than good looking guys. If you want to sell a product on getting women the best way to do it is to say "hey, even if your ugly you can have hot women!" Telling the guys the truth would make the marketer lose out on a lot of money.

To illustrate my point even further i'll use an example. A local guy here in Cincinnati goes to the clubs and day games a lot. I've ran into him a ton of times and we became friends and often go out together. He discovered the community back in 2001. His technical "game" is better than mine. His escalations are smoother, his verbals are more on point, he is a comic genius. Hes very charming and can make women feel at ease. I, however, get much hotter women than him and with much less effort. Why? Because most women rate me an 8 - 9 and most women rate him a 4 - 5.

Looks matter. They aren't the ONLY thing that matters but that are one large piece of the puzzle.

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Looks matter, but they aren't the only thing that matters, and you can still get really hot girls without looks (just the pool of them is smaller).

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http://www.joshsway.com -- dating, online dating, fitness, fashion, and more...

Looks need to be decent, but it all comes down to how well your have your fundamentals handled and how well you can escalate the vibe.

Wallie

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Game can sure get you some advantage, it rises the bar of which HB's you can get. But looks are a limiting factor. They limit the maximum HB you can get. Gave this a thought more than once and developed a theory about it. Comes down on the basic needs and how we show them. Men merely seek for replication value = looks. But as we know women are attracted through a few more things. Basicly in our modern society it is like:

Looks = Replication value
Money/status = Survival value
Game = Bonus. As it can make you turn on switches intentionaly even if you aren't such a top guy.

Now realize that people seek for a partner who's genetic level is at least equal to them. Best would be to even get a partner who's better but that can be scary and involves some more risks (also for women it's not likely to commit themselves to a man who is far above her league, as he is more likely to leave her!)

Take a close view on the womans needs and you'll discover that they change in different phases of the contact and that a mans characteristics have different value depending on what phase you're in.

We all rate women HB 1 - 10 and a lot of people think that below 6 doesn't excist. I've also seen people claim that a 10 doesn't exist: 'A 10 is actually a 9 on a very good day'. Sounds reasonable, as we all have good and less good days and there is also some personal taste involved. Now let's explain it by analyzing a man's rating.

From 1 till 10 you'll need at least 3 points to even be capable of being a potential partner

1 point for being the right gender. Aproaching someone of the same gender or as a male aproaching a lesbian won't result in atraction.

1 point for being able to communicate at all. If you're mute and lost your hand because of an accident or whatever you cannot initiate contact and there is almost zero chance that someone will be attracted to you without communication.

1 point for not being a retard. If you're a retard you're not able to maintain a satisfying relationship, even contact, with a 'normal' person. No need to mention that, to say it in a rude way, you're just inferior genetic material and therefore are not capable to produce any valuable offspring with a normal person.

So you now have 3 points earned, even if you're the most ugly socialy awkward poor begger dwelling on the streets.
Then the proces of evolution first focuses on replication, as it comes before survival. No replication = no worries about survival because there won't even be offspring that has to survive. What's most important are the features that instantly draw attention to the fact you are the best catch: looks. Therefore during the phase of atracting someone for replication, good looks get 3 points. Money displays survival value, which is in the stadium that you don't yet know eachother is not as obviously visible and also doesn't make up for the fact that despite the money related survival value your kids still are gonna be ugly and perhaps unhealthy, thus at this moment money is not as important. 1 point for money is enough. However, even if you don't look like a supermodel you can still influence her feelings about you by steering your behavior to turn on the switches, so maxed out Game gets 2 points.

Your maximum value at this stage:

Basic requirements: 3
Looks: 3
Money: 1
Game: 2
____________________
Total worth: 9

You now have 9 points if you're goodlooking, have an excellent game and have some money in your pocket, which makes you a 9. If you have a good day you're a 10 and you'll perhaps attract a 10, which is a female 9 who has a good day.

Now if you want to keep the relationship going you have to provide her a solid life to guarantee survival, money becomes more important especially if it's a high value female who knows what she can get out in the streets. In this stage money gets 3 points. Looks 1, as they don't feed her and what more. Game still gets 2 points because through your actions you can still influence her thoughts to keep faith in you. Let's say that you're a bum. But a good looking bum, so you closed the target. But you don't have MUCH money. Now with the focus turning more towards survival, you have only 4 points.


Your maximum value at this stage:

Basic requirements: 3
Looks: 1
Money: 1
Game: 2
______________________
Total value: 7

Voila, as your wife is a 9 you are now below her standards and are likely to lose her.

Ofcourse there is that picture in your mind. The ugly fat banker and the 20 years younger supermodel. If looks matter, how did he then got her anyway? Reality is that he most often didn't 'get' her at all. If you think about the fact that people are looking to date people who are on the same sport of society's ladder, with the same amount of social proof then you realize why this picture excists. A girls social proof almost entirely depends on her looks. A man's social proof depends largely on his succes, and that can be accomplished by game and money. She isn't fishing in the water where you poor guys are in, so you won't get a chance to game her and thus those girls will often accept a less goodlooking man but who DOES HAVE the same social status for the survival value. Notice here that most often they don't replicate together! Because it's not atraction/love, it's just a partial lower standard to fullfill only one need, the survival need, as the other appearantly cannot be fullfilled. She just accepted him and to satisfy her needs for replication she is probably cheating on him with her goodlooking personal trainer.

In the end, the picture of the fat banker with the beautiful girl makes us think that looks don't matter. But this picture does only show survival. Looks DO matter for replication, which is the main concern during the attraction phase. Therefore within the margin of PUA that is about the atraction phase, if you are an ugly phuck you'll never end up with more then 7 points and thus will not close the absolute top girls. 7's are your max, perhaps incidentally an 8 when you have an extraordinary good day and you have almost no pimples and just got a haircut.

Looks are definitely important. Being as hot as you can should be an important part of your overall broader "game".

That being said, personality can work wonders.

I'm pretty short, and not very muscular (and while I do work out frequently, I can't do much weight due to a back injury I've had to do phys therapy for), so if I want to get more attractive girls, I generally have to be /VERY/ aggressive. This seems to compensate somewhat for my smaller size.

It doesn't ALWAYS work, but it works frequently enough that I've noticed it working.

Another thing is familiarity. When a girl recognizes you consistently (whether it be at a club or elsewhere), and you frequently act properly behavior-wise (dominant), especially in front of other men who are "hotter" than you, she'll be attracted. I see a pair of girls frequently at this one night club I go to, one of whom is really hot. I flirt with them frequently, oftentimes in front of whatever hot boy they've brought along. The hot one gave me fuck me eyes and was kinoing me two weeks ago enough that it made her super muscular companion jealous.

I also dress stylish (I get a lot of compliments on how I dress), have a great haircut, and I'm thin, so that is probably part of it too.

Eh. this is wrong. The rich ugly guy with the hot girl DOES get the girl, he does bang the girl at will, etc. etc. You can get a 10 even if you are ugly, you just need to have a lot of other shit going for you.

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http://www.joshsway.com -- dating, online dating, fitness, fashion, and more...

Dude this isn't a math problem... why the fuck is there math here?

Humans don't have the same value to everyone. All that matters is how you feel about yourself, if you feel high value you'll exude high value behaviors.

Realize this as soon as you try and add rationality to a woman you're fucking up. Read her as a human emotional sexual creature and you'll do much better that adding values... the value you add is how you make her feel whether that is related to looks, making her wet, making her laugh, etc. It's how good you make her feel.

Peace and Love,

Vic

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Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Looks do matter but less than you think, some good looking dudes came to the forum saying "man, everybody tells me i am hot but i can't pull a girl for shit" so it's not insta-win, also it is not insta-lose if you are not good looking, all in all everybody has his own theory about how much looks matter but for me i think making yourself look as good as you can is definitely a priority but it is a lengthy process and i do not need to waste my time doing nothing in between, on the other hand i may be at an advantage here as rely my only fault is that i am overweight, apart from that i am quite tall, dark and masculine so my only fault is my own, i can fix it just by being persistent, for a guy that is short, balding or has an ugly face it may be harder overall but in essence what they say, try to hit on every hot girl you see, if you see a hot girl, you hit on her and you fail you are not having any less sex with her so nothing lost nothing gained.

On the other hand i had rely good looking girls, like straight 10s give me a chance when i had almost 300 pounds so it is not just looks. Our problem is that we are looking at the world from male perspective, but if male and female perspective were the same there would be no need for pickup as all you would have to do is treat a woman the way you want her to treat you and that's it.

There is another thing, there are, definitely more good looking girls then there are good looking guys, like rely, i once heard that women rated 80% males below average so in essence, if you are waiting to meet female standards of beauty you are going to wait a very long time, all this talk about looks just serves to depress guys who are not Adonis reborn(like 99.9% of guys) stop making excuses to not do anything, as i said if you hit on hot girl and you fail you are not having any less sex with her, however there is a slight chance that she just has a fetish for your kind of imperfection, and if she does you do not want to miss it.

Looks matter. They do, its an absolute truth. Every guy here has certain physical traits in women that are turnoffs and turnons

Fortunately, the old adage is true that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Yes, looks matter, but what is attractive is subjective. There are women who think about the kind of guy they want to met while they prepare to go to the bar that night, and some of them are thinking of my image, almost exactly. Some are thinking of the OP, most probably think of Vic (just a guess).

So if you have a type, and are getting consistently shut down, you have to decide what to do about that.

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These hos ain't loyal

Realest post I've ever read.

Look the best you can. That's all you can do right?

Why would you focus on something you can't control? Women look beyond looks, sure they matter but not as much as most people think.

If you're confident, funny and ambitious you'll be able to date an attractive woman.

I'm a pale ginger, receding hairline and I may be in shape but I don't have huge muscles or rock solid abs. I've had no problem with dating beautiful women.


Focus on the shit you can improve about yourself and take action. Period. Worrying about your looks that you can't change, penis size or whatever will only be counter productive and effect the most important thing, YOUR CONFIDENCE.

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Woah. Did not expect these responses at all. Every PUA brah I talk to irl goes on and on about how looks don't matter at all. Totally cult-like. Good to see you guys are making the most of what you got/ maxing out things that are changeable instead of just straight up lying to yourselves. +1 for this forum.

I am not the HOTTEST guy on earth, I think I range from a 7-9. Varies on the girl, but I know that I can work with that by looking my best. Of course looks are taken into account. I try to use my style and my health as a way to keep myself in the game. Going to the gym and eating right really do help. Girls like men that are fit and healthy. Girls like men who have good hygiene and decent to good fashion sense. That's all you really need in the looks department. No model looks necessary, but as long as you try to do with what god gave you, you will get some brownie points for trying.

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