I often find myself having this dilemma.

When gaming a girl in a club I will buy her a drink if I feel she's earned it after maybe 10-15 minutes of good conversation. None of that buying affection bullshit. I'd do the same with a friend.

Same thing goes for regular dating. I've been seeing this coworker for a few weeks now and if I've ever paid for something it was always in the context of "I'll buy this round and you buy the next". Or "you can treat me with some icecream tomorrow". And she then insists on doing so. I'm fine with that.

But when I take her out I sometimes find myself contemplating whether or not I should pay. Maybe it's the social conditioning talking. I don't know. I don't particularly care for money but then again I don't wanna fall into that provider frame. Plus we have the same job and the exact same income.


I need some perspective on this.

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On first dates I just pay for everything, to avoid any awkwardness. With that in mind, I usually pick cheaper venues for first dates. After I shelled out around 15 dollars (10 Euros) for a cocktail once, for an absolute dud of a date, I promised myself never again. These days I try to get them to my place pretty quickly, where there is endless quantities of liquor anyway. Also I don't really like women, who don't want to pay for their shit, or don't at least offer to pay. I think it's pretty attractive if a girl is willing to pick up the tab. And later on, after a couple of dates, it tends to become more of a "I got this one, you can get the next one" type of thing.
With my previous gf it got so messy, I just stopped trying to keep up with it, after a while. Maybe I owe her 500 Bucks, maybe I spent way more than she did. No way of knowing. I used to know a couple who would go over ever penny spent and divide it up fairly afterwards. I think that's bullshit. First of all it's about as romantic as getting finger-banged by a mexican gangster and secondly it's just too much fucking work.

That being said, I am a cheap guy by nature. I buy generic brand food, I never buy clothes for full price, I hate spending more than a couple of bucks on a drink and so on, but I also try not to worry about money. As long as I can live comfortably and buy what I need and want, it's fine. I'd rather buy cheap stuff than be the guy, who writes down every buck anybody owes him (used to know one of those too).

So, ultimately as long as I don't feel like I am being taken advantage of by a girl, I try not to worry about it. I just don't want to be that guy.

I don't know. She tells me stories from time to time. The extents to which some guys have gone to buy her attention.. it's so cringe-worthy it's not even funny.

I know it's a matter of perspective, frame, all that, but even the slightest chance of being associated with that makes me wanna throw up in my mouth a little bit.

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You have no idea, man. I hate that guy, that guy is everything that's wrong with the dating world. It's that guys fault that so many men look for PUA to help them out, cause so many women get massively inflated egos, because guys like that keep swarming around them, kissing their feet and trying to buy their affection. Yeah, I "over-adjusted" for awhile because of that exact reason. I didn't want to be that guy, so I made it my rule not to pay at all. When I was about 15 or 16 I had a girl literally reach into my wallet, looking for change cause I was out of money and she wanted another drink. After that I wouldn't pay for girls out of principle. And you know what, that's just as stupid as the other way round. As you said, it's just a matter of frame. Both things I did came from the same anxiety and low self-esteem. Now I try to just not think about it. If I feel like paying, I pay, If I feel it's her turn, I tell her so.

Does it make you feel good to be able to provide?

Does it make her feel good knowing you're capable?

Just because the "system" has changed that doesn't mean that our basically biologically functions aren't still in affect. I don't have real issues with paying; it doesn't make me feel any less "manly" , but I will not pay for a woman who expects it. Meaning; if her attitude is one that says " I would never pay" she will be paying. But usually, I don't end up going out with those types.

I actually discuss this on a live radio show interview I did on vimeo. Look it up.. Google 'Vimeo Eddie Fews schools women on how to attract a man'

I discuss it with the girl in the video who claims to be a "non payer".

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I would generally pay but agree with Eddie, all depends on their attitude.

Went on a dinner date yesterday and she offered to pay her way but being the man I took the bill
even after some protests.

So the bar we went to afterwards and she bought the drinks.

These are always the best kind of girls in my personal experience.

I pay for the first dates. But I don't reject the girl offering to split it or buying me a drink. A woman who expects me to pay...yeah...not happening.

This reminds of a little number I met off Tinder who was older and apparently married but in an open relationship. She was saying about "oh I am used to being wined and dined, I don't understand why I am chasing you"....

K

Date comes and I pay for her, she then STARTS to bring up that mindset^ but I refused to play into it. I did a same night lay that night. Her exact words "Wow, you skipped all my steps, I usually don't leave the bar before 2, or have sex on the first date. I am used to guys taking me out on more dates and spending money on me".

After sex I told her I will be in touch.

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I know right? I don't even. I can't even. I refuse to even.
1. No. Having my shit together is what makes me feel good. Being able to "provide" is a consequence of that, not the reason. What also makes me feel good is being with a woman that has her shit together herself, and no need of being provided for. Financially.

2. Yes, it's an evolutionary trait. But me being capable doesn't mean I necessarily should. Unless she needs it. And she doesn't.

Anyway ofcourse it depends on their attitude. You could hold a gun to my head and I'd still not pay for her if she was "expecting" me to. That's not the case here. I don't give women like that a second glance.
Nice, obviously the right move to make. Would've done exactly the same.

So far I think that "I buy dinner, you buy drinks" is the way to go about it. It's how I've always done it, but something goes off in my mind from time to time. I don't know what's up with that.

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Then why pay for anything?

Why not just split everything 50 50 if this is your philosophy?

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Because it feels cheap at times. And it's not like I can't afford it. I have no problem spending the money, I have a problem with what that correlates with.

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Because than you'd have to explain your thinking on the subject to her and that just makes you seem like you are looking for an excuse to be cheap. Paying for first dates is just part of the game. It's like making the first move on the dance floor, holding a door open, kissing her. There is no sensible reason why women can't do that shit themselves in 2015 but if you try to break too many of those rules early on you are just gonna lose more than you gain.
Refusing to pay for dinner or drinks on the first date is about in the same ballpark as refusing to make the first move in terms of kiss closing or even approaching. Sure you can make a statement or try to change the frame, but more times than not you're just gonna lose the girl or not even get her attention in the first place. Yeah the whole wining and dining routine is bullshit, if you think about it with a modern mindset. But unless you are Daenerys Targaryen, you have to spin the wheel, not break it. #nerdreference

Splitting it 50/50? No complaints from me.


I think that's a learned feeling. Feeling cheap. There are different forms of cheap...splitting 50/50 to me at least, isn't terrible.

By learned I meant like how shame is learned throughout your life. We aren't born with shame as a feeling.

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Yeah.. I was simply saying if this is the case " But me being capable doesn't mean I necessarily should. Unless she needs it. And she doesn't. "

And if this is the case " What also makes me feel good is being with a woman that has her shit together herself, and no need of being provided for. Financially. "


It would only make sense to split everything 50-50 if thats your belief. The response given sounded a bit contradictory to those statements. Its almost as if you are saying that you pay because it makes you feel emotional (cheap) not to.. sometimes. She doesn't need it AND you like a woman who can provide for herself.. yet you still pay anyway.

I have a different philosophy and so I tend to just take care of it, but I was just curious about your philosophy.

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I'd say forget about falling into the provider frame, what's more important is that both of you are contributing to the fun equally. You can pay for everything if the chick is cooking you dinners or surprising you with backrubs. Dating with 2 people paying equally = boring. Because it's just about going out and spending money. The provider frame is far less worse to be in that the boring frame. If your contemplating whether to pay at this point, you haven't gotten her to do more than come out, have fun or have sex. Make sure she is doing things to actively please you. Who pays doesn't matter. As long as she is proactively trying to make you happy.

You're not wrong, but logically understanding the cause doesn't have a very significant impact on the result in this case. Feelings tend to be like that.

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My in depth texting & dating guide.
There's no such thing as shit-tests.
How to keep a girl.