Being a PUA is like getting breast implants... It's the geneticly weaker of the species mimicry of the geneticly superior.

Just because a milk snake looks like a coral snake, does that make it's bite equally dangerous? Of course not, the mimic is basically a colorful garden snake and the real one is neurotoxic.

The problem we have in all of these scenarios is the focus on symptoms... DHV stories are a symptom of a High Value life, Negs are symptoms of not believing someones value is higher then yours, and not needing thier approval, even being the Prize is a symptom of being preselected, confident, and self sufficient... PU is all about mimicking symptoms.

Does the Coral Snake value his stripes for thier protection? Of course not, he has venom for that... However the mimic places so much value on the symtoms because he has no venom... in essence the symtom is the cause for a mimic.

I think this is why PUA's often get 'addicted to Sarging'.. because theyre value system is setup as a mimic. They value the symtop without the cause and blindly try to define thier incompleteness. This is also why I think most PUA's fail in relationships where naturals tend to succeed... things change in a relationship, for it to be truly successfull it's not about the symptoms anymore, it's about the causes the person beneath the person... the inner you. A mimics inner them is the same as always, and gravely dissonant from the symptoms they have been portraying.

The only way around this is to alter your very R and S values... not portray higher R and S values... but obtain them. You can never achieve this through anyone elses work but your own... no amount of sarging or closes or forum posts will create this... you must become a great human being... or risk the neverending cycle of incompletion and distain that results from being a mimic.

Agree, good post. But then again you can probably learn how to be good at relationships too, but you have to want to learn that too.

_________________
300+ page FREE body language Ebook: http://bodylanguageproject.com/the-only ... s-to-read/

1000+ term FREE BL dictionary: http://www.bodylanguageproject.com/dictionary/

Main site: http://www.bodylanguageproject.com/

absolutely absolutely absolutely.

I often feel like all the PUA strategies, methodologies, tactics, etc. are like putting a band-aid on an infected would. Yeah, it externally covers up the bleeding, but it doesn't heal the infection. That's why "inner game" is so important. That's why it's important to positively augment all areas of one's life. Yeah, you can get numbers and sleep with girls, but you can't make someone of real value become attracted to you unless you are attracted to yourself.

That's not to say that using "negs" does not have a time and a place. Sometimes starting out with some of that stuff leads people down the road to advanced lifestyle augmentation, which is a good thing.

_________________
- Zip

I COULDNT AGREE MORE. MOST FOLKS SEEK PUAING (OR MASTER SEDUCING AS I CALL IT) TO BECOME GREAT WITH WOMEN, BUT THE TRUTH IS THEY ARE TRYING TO FILL AN EMPTY HOLE AND ARE AT BEST ONLY GETTING HALF OF THE EQUATION. SECOND, THE WUSS STUFF THAT WE USED TO DO THAT LABELED US NICE GUYS IS REALLY GOOD STUFF (not all of it, just some of it)THAT WE MUST USE IN RELATIONSHIPS, BUT IN OUR QUEST TO BE COME MASTER SEDUCERS WE PURGE THE NICE GUY STUFF INSTEAD OF JUST KEEPING IT ON HOLD UNTIL IT IS TIME TO BE USED. AS A RESULT WE SUFFER THE SAME PROBLEM WE HAD BEFORE BECOMING PUAS BECAUSE WHILE WE CAN GET SOME FROM A WOMAN WE CANNOT KEEP HER.

I must respectfully be the first to disagree for many of the same reasons outlined in:

Does Pick-Up Have a Negative Connotation
What you are claiming is that there is a universal artificiality to the world of social dynamics. That simply is not true, because to accept that implication would be to acknowledge pick-up as something more than a tool.

This would be akin to claiming that fitness is centric around the dumbbell weight; instead of recognizing that fitness revolves around your discipline, exercises and your goals. You aren't going to curl that 50lb free-weight if the underlying criteria are not met.

Similarly, your success with woman is going to be limited if you don't have the lifestyle to support your value stories, your charismatic C&F and the plethora of other things that this community helps you refine.
True Pick-Up is about recognizing that those 'symptoms' exist within you. The whole reason this community spawned was because we are never taught to nourish, embellish and present those things we have which attract the opposite sex. You are not copying fallacy, you are merely learning to portray your own reality in a different way.

The exception does exist...and that is the "robotic PUA." However, I do too much justice to this disease than I should by even calling them PUA. This is what you refer to -- and just like that impersonator in Vegas wasn't the true King, these clones are not the genuine Venusian. It's important to distinguish between the two, otherwise you may end up buying the rip-off that was 'Made in China.'

Then who is really being fooled? The girl who will never know if the stories are real or you knowing that you have to put up a front of something that you really aren't just to satisfy your needs?

I don't mean to use this as an example but it is obviously a perfect one.

relationship-doubts-sorry-puas--vt18585.html

He ran into a road block while in a relationship because she became uninterested. Why? Because once all the preplanned stories and routines run out, what is left? Little old you, no more stories to hide behind.[/u]

_________________
I'd rather go out swinging than strike out looking.
A lifestyle is a terrible thing to waste.
What I say when I see her is what I'll say.

I had a friend in med school describe to me the exact procedure women undergo for breast implants. I gotta say it didn't help my AA to know people are crazy enough to do something like this to their own bodies.

Doc, you're right on with this post.

PUA is just like all other facets of life, it all starts from within.

_________________
afc-challenge-to-the-masters-social-anx ... 10108.html

I honestly saw right thru this post, it was something I first thought before posting on this forum. What my worth is and how much can I do, social life is fun but it doesnt complete me or give off anything that says I need to be a PUA for a long time. Honestly, thru this I hope to me the girl of my dreams and the girl I deserve to be with. While Sarging is fun, its not gonna be my life just something I do apart from it.

_________________
AA what, Im full PUA NOW BIOTCH!!!

www.myspace.com/zheruto

Inner Game

But yeah. I totally agree. In short, it's not so much about doing as it is about becoming.

And hence we have that beautiful little word called subjectivity. It all depends on how you define success. If you're just looking a 7 hour tank and spank you will be successful in the field, indefintely, with all the robotic material your can store. However, if your desires extend beyond that initial foray, than the definition changes and limited success begins.

I put forth my statements with a desire to extend those relationships beyond that 'breaking' point. Perhaps that shall help clarify my sentiments.

Hehe, cool this is what I've been doing the past year My amount of closes are lower then most of my PUA mates but my lifestyle is a lot richer. I got a good job, Good house, good education, Rich social life, my own company is doing well.

These are things a mimic doesn't have. It's cool to be a mimic but when it comes to biting I rather be the real deal

_________________
< Insert Hilarious quote here >

Body language does not come natural; everything you are doing is actually a mimic of the proper studied way to do it. Does that make the act of improving body language mimicking, and fake?


How do you build ones core without first "mimicking" steps? NLP, Hypnosis, and meditation can only go so far. You have to see that you've actually "got it." You have to spend time in the field to reinforce those positives that you started to mold into. What do you consider a better human being? What is your idea of a great lifestyle that will give you these values? What type and amount of "work" can one do to give himself these things?



I don't like when they say "fake it till you make it" because then you are right, everyone is building their frames off of falsities - a core that will blow over once the wind picks up. It creates a faux core that is a lie to yourself and to others. Eventually, it will crumble - like you said, congruency in an LTR.

A strong core is built from the bottom up with high quality materials (your confidence, beliefs, and self improvements). But again, how can you build this 'pyramid' (if you will) when you have NO knowledge on how to create a solid foundation? Thats where canned material and sarging comes into play. People go out sarging to gain these attributes. Sure sometimes its about new material, and testing things, and number scrounging....but all of those have the hidden benefit - a giant reason behind sarging - to generate and reinforce the slate on which you will grow. You have to go out and mimic to reinforce the foundation you have started.


What I am saying and asking is what can one do to truly increase the S&R values? I believe it takes a bit of external recognition (sarging, nclosing, blah blah blah) before you can really reinforce those traits inside yourself.

Take a homeschooled kid for example. He can be the most intelligent and funny person when he is at home. He spends all his time in his house. He knows (by studies and internet surfing) that he is in fact a genius. His mom tells him every day that he is good looking (which...he is) and when he leaves his house to go to the store to pick up another book on overcoming social fears (because he is not familiar with interaction _ he spends most time at home) he walks with broad shoulders, a squared jaw, and a twinkle in his eye. He knows he is smart, good looking, and funny. Yet when he approaches people, he mumbles and doesn't use good body language...he talks inappropriately, and no one cares about anything he is saying - since he doesn't know what to talk about.

These are all things that sarging, stories, and pua methods teach. they teach how to build off the S&R traits. So, I agree, sarging should not be used to BUILD frame or core...however, it is a necessary part in realizing what needs to be "worked on", what needs to be fixed, what you need to do to improve your S&R basics. You have to start out as a mimic so that you know exactly what it is you are missing, exactly what parts of you actually need self improvement****. Sarging helps to assist in that process.



I'd like to use myself as an example. Sarging gave me the opportunity to realize my potential - it actually made me aware that I should push myself even further!

To finish my rant though, I will say you are right in some aspects. Sometimes I find myself a little more emotional than a good PUA should be. A little less organized and strategized than a good PUA should be. Sometimes I actually have to think: what should I say back to this/her. Things for me don't come natural (well, a lot more natural now than before, but not completely); does it mean they are fake? Does that mean that I have a false core? No. But I do think that everyone to some extent does have a little ego (the "false stuff") on top of their core. Ya know, as insulation. I also think everyone will always have to improve their inner core because none are perfect.


So Doc, any tips you can give the forum (and myself) on how to truly increase your value and mimic less?



****note: although you should FOCUS on the things that need the most improvement, all aspects of your personality and life should constantly be worked on and improved. Maslow is an idealist - getting to that roof of your pyramid rarely happens

_________________
[color=red:7c51ae7520]email is a better option: thelockestar@gmail.com[/color:7c51ae7520][/size:7c51ae7520]

I wholeheartedly disagree, and I think it stems from this poor analogy of "building a house from strong foundations strong foundations".

First, we have to agree to a point that each one of us has certain inborn talents--some people have personality traits such as extraversion, etc. that are genetically influenced. Now the debate on the degree and interplay of genetics on said internal traits is irrelevant, all I need to do is make the distinction. Naturally, we cannot change out genetics, so any subsequent augmentation of these traits must come through some sort of learning.

Now learning can be conscious (I have been attempting to learn Chinese consciously for quite some time now--it has been painful) or it can be unconscious (I learned most of how to operate a computer unconsciously just through tinkering around on it). More often than not our skills have been learned partly consciously and partly unconsciously. I wrestled for eight years, for example, I read a few books and worked consciously on some moves--others, particularly the basic skills of balance and movement involve in wrestling, came almost like osmosis as I completed match after match after match.

Now the only conscious actions we can take in learning unconsciously is placing ourselves in a situation in which we will learn, so it seems most prudent to focus on the conscious learning for the sake of this issue.

When it comes to conscious learning, once we have established what to learn, our job involves merely answering two questions: that of pedagogy and that of motivation...in other words, how will the student learn the most effectively, and how will the student be most driven to succeed.

Now returning to the initial issue--what will make us successful with women, I think a bottom-up approach neglects the motivation aspect. Yes, of course it would be most efficient to start from the bottom and work our way up, but that is not how people become motivated. People become motivated to learn when they understand the relevance of it in their lives.

This relevance can be internal or external, but unless exposure comes by accident--say a visit to an art museum that moves one to being painting--exposure often beings as external. Consider a dancer. There are very few male salsa dancers that I know that suddenly had a calling to go to a salsa dance club and give it a whirl. No--they went because there was a plethora of beautiful, sensually dressed women who moved their bodies in very provocative ways. With many of them even their initial motivation to improve was based on their desire to appear more skilled, and thus more desirable, for the women there. But over time they grew to have a genuine love for the activity itself--they derived great pleasure from it. In fact, many of these guys who started out as just wanting to hook up with some women, became truly gifted dancers who are amazing at their art. More importantly, they dance not for the results it brings, but the for the love of the activity itself.

In advocating some sort of bottom up approach, you destroy any sort of motivation for the activity itself, and thus will rarely get a person engaged enough to pursue it deeply. It is like teaching someone dance steps without them knowing that skill at this will bring them inches away from gorgeous caramel skinned beauties.

Moreover, I think the analogy of the snake is even worse. We are not dealing with evolutionary mimicry, which in both cases in natural and unchanging without a few hundred thousand years to spare. We are talking about learned behavior. A better analogy would be an athlete. Some people are naturals--at my University, there was a guy who was the most natural athlete I had ever seen. H was a three time state champion wrestler and an all-state football player. He played softball from the first time in college (intermural) against seasoned athletes and beat them handedly. Then there is the runner Steve Prefontaine, who everyone said was a very genetically ungifted athlete, but busted his ass to make it to the top, and outworked everyone else. he never had "it", but he had the determination to succeed. This is mimicry in a way, but certainly not in the evolutionary sense.

_________________
Lo' there do I see My Father.
Lo' there do I see the line of My People, back to the beginning.
Lo' they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them.
in the Halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.

To sum up, I think that Inner Game is important, even crucial, to a complete and successful PUA, but it comes typically AFTER, not before, initial contact with the Pickup Arts. Inner Game is developed because a PUA cannot be complete without it. However, appreciation for Inner Game development will quickly follow (because it will almost certainly be internalized as a love of self).



Sorry if any of that was muddled, I realize it was poorly organized and tangential.

_________________
Lo' there do I see My Father.
Lo' there do I see the line of My People, back to the beginning.
Lo' they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them.
in the Halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.

I didn't read all the other posts but I think thats when the other side of PUA should appear, first you will try to fake it but later on the whole idea is to really improve your life until you have social value, you can tell your own DHV stories you really NEG because you don't care if you get laid or not, etc...

_________________


My website: www.pualife.webs.com

New TWITTER account: http://twitter.com/xfman1

Facebook: xf_pua@hotmail.com