Hey guys,

I took a look at my YouTube feed not too long ago and apparently the manosphere is boiling over the brim and out of the pot lately. This post was originally intended for the Roosh forum, or ReturnOfKings, but I realized it applies to all of the community in general. And I'm sure more than a few of you junior poo-ah's in training might have one foot in the MRA movement (in which case RUN!!!)

Either way, I logged into my account on the Roosh forum, and apparently I've been banned as "Scatological Troll", no definition is given in their "guide to the types of trolls here" I think I only ever made one post there, and I think it was pretty matter-of-factly, or "by the way", kind of stuff.

A few things have been cited that has gotten the MRA community in an uproar;

1. That video that shows a plain Jane (I'll agree 6.5 at best) with a resting bitch face, getting cat calls as she walks. The manosphere blogs acknowledge that it does seem most of those guys just walk off. But to be fair, some of those guys were creepy as fuck. I think one did follow her for about 5 minutes, like by her side. Would a girl think that the guy would be a rapist be a stretch? Some guys had angry follow-ups when they got no response (more of the mentality of butt-hurt trolls here, lol, only in their case; they're sitting up on a stoop drinking from a brown bag.)

2. Some guy posting videos of guys grabbing strangers' asses, and losing his YouTube partner status; the decision of one of the new feminist moderators.

Roosh is upping his promotion ante, with more videos, and graphical covers/thumbnails to each talking about whatever the video's about, and more tantalizing titles.

Guys, there are no shit, TWO VIDEOS, EACH TWO HOURS LONG, that are podcast recordings where guys complain about "boo-hoo!! Women have it so easy and we have it so tough, and they'll never understand; and I was a nice guy who played by the rules and it got me screwed over in the end! It's a social war."

It's really occurred to me that this movement is dangerous to guy who simply got into this to get theirs - be it a girlfriend (most), the ability for increased % if they want to just go out for ass, or a stable of girls.

The war isn't just about gender, although there probably is a culture war. When my company laid me off in 2008, within 18 months they had hired a hot blonde to fill my old role.

I recounted that stuff to a female friend of mine. She said, "Women aren't taking over. Women that're in any positions of power...they're being put in those positions by men."

I had to think about that for a second and couldn't agree more. Women hate each other, and if some woman who's busted her ass to get up to a major position of authority, see some little floozy, coasting on her looks, hotter (and younger!) than her, getting flirted with all the time, she wouldn't give the idea of hiring/promoting her the time of day. Now GUYS on the other hand, seem to know what they can do with a few hot women at the helm.

(Think of the nightclub owner who hires only hot women to tend the bars, host, and wait tables)

Anyway, the manosphere / MRA movement for that matter is not about men helping other men out, to enhance their game as this community was intended to do, it's about whining about how tough guys have it.

Here are some things that've happened to me over the past year.

1. I don't know many people in my town, so found a guy on the DC Lair who was up for sarging that night. We sarged a few spots; it was a good night. I checked back with him the next week and he said he only sarged with a "random forum dude, LOL", because all of his friends were out of town and he usually just "sarges with his friends"

Fellow PUA's can't be your friends??!

Don't you think this needs to be looked at and addressed, if some PUA's think of game as a second office job, where you leave everything at your desk and go home to your friends and family, then that's a big fucking deal!!

Way more important, I'd say, than simply whining about "women have it better, boo hoo!" There were a shit load of hot girls in the venue, and we a good wing match, so we had great social proof for walk-ups all night. Never once did someone come up to us and say "How dare you approach girls in a bar??!!"

2. A guy I knew from a job I had in another area also relocated to DC on his own. We go out for beers and two hot girls strut right in, straight past us, and take a corner table for 2 that looked important.

I suggested we go up and introduce ourselves.

"Naw man, you've gotta have like 10 guys with you to be able to do that"

Are you shitting me??!!? You need 10 guys with you so you'll get the time of day from these girls?!?

Any chance that mentality needs to be looked at before worrying about supposed "deteriorating men's rights"??!

Again, there are **men who believe this!!**

I think the MRA movement is screwing so many guys over, that they just buy into this angry, party-line, and never get out of PUA, what they came here to get out of it in the first place!

Anybody have any thoughts or disagree?

_________________
Http://Dating-Musings.com

Too tired for a full response but found this point interesting. You say "within 18 months" as if that's not a long time to fill a job. That's a year and a half. If you had said a week later I could understand. Then you say she was a hot blonde...I don't see how that proves anything. Do you know if she was under qualified. Aren't you assuming that because she was hot she was not qualified? If not I dont get how you connected the points. That's like saying, I'm ugly, my girl broke up with me and 2 years later she was with a good looking guy...so looks are a factor in all this. By referencing this example, aren't you just one of those bo-hooing guys.

Also, your other pt about the floozy who gets promoted, tbh, it's not really found in corporate america. You refernce the bar scene which is different entirely. Yes, in the bar scene, modelling, tv, hotter girls win but these are industries based on looks. Their nature is to pick the most attractive people who can attract more customers. Once you get beyond lower management (like high school GED manager lower management), women are rarely promoted for high positions due to looks or fucking. That's a myth and porno fantasy. Truth is, senior management who busted their ass to get somewhere, don't promote floozies for positions because if the dumb blonde fails, they themselves lose and get fired. Business men are about money first, they may put someone in a secretary position, but they're not gonna put someone to run a team or manage a division off of some good head.

And can someone tell me how the manosphere is a pickup thing? If it's Men's rights let them discuss or complain about men's rights.

Easier to do it this way than to screw around with quote tags on my phone, so please excuse my failure to exert my technical prowess while I tear you to shreds:

1. Yes, a year and a half later, the company was in a position to refill a lot of the positions they laid off. Well they hired me in 2006, and next round had the same pool of candidates to choose from; maybe with a few variations (a few hot chicks added). They picked her and didn't call me back

2. The floozy who gets promoted. First off, WHO IN THE WORLD said anything about hiring and promotion based on sexual favors. In that job, I flew to New York, LA, and Dallas weekly. I was responsible for tens of $millions of dollars of partner business. My job was to engage the media partner and get them to get us more exposure. I was on track for making 6 figures on Richmond Va at 26 in 2008; not fuckin bad. Much of this came from marketing initiatives that would run forever and I'd get a handsome commission at each monthly occurrence (because I was making the company a shit load of money; why not just take what Rob built, and cut having to pay his commissions by cutting him?

I majored in a subject relevent to the business. The Hot blonde higher was an art history major. So as far as your argument about hot girls not being given a chance because they give good head, falls flat right there, because for one, this girl wasn't hired based on head-giving skill, nor on fucking skill,it was simply that she was a hot blonde and an art history major which made no fucking sense whatsoever, and they looked at the applicant pool, I obviously wasn't applied for my old job, and they went with the hot blonde.

Leading a team? Wholly accountable position? Position with lots of authority? This position had it all! Again tens of millions of dollars of business flow through this position, and I handled it superbly. It just so happened it after things started recovering a little bit they had a fresh applicant pool, and why not she is a pretty fresh young hot blonde face?

And your point about the MRA's being a pick up thing… You obviously have no clue about what this community is about, or what any of the interconnections are. The manosphere is an outgrowth of the PUA community, these are guys who decided that men are legally held back and are set up by the structures of society to be totally screwed over by women and treated unequally in every way shape and form.

But if you want real proof of why the MRA suddenly became a PUA thing, I'll tell you right now: RooshV.

His books and clips in YouTube posts are all about which cities suck for meeting women in, he's a sexual tourist and a proudly proclaimed men's rights activist, that's all he does, and it seems he also, and you may be able to get substantiation elsewhere in this forum as well, that he doesn't see the success that he claims, but he just goes about eastern European cities and writes about how Ukrainian girls are supposed to be hot and then writes about how they weren't after all, then no girls in Toronto are hot and then Rights Paola missing the girls in Poland must be. Then he writes, "girls in Poland suck!" Every city he visits is followed with a blog post: "Los Angeles, the worst city in the world to try to pick up women" although he is never been to any US city aside from DC and it's MD suburbs.

Want to teach guys the best cities for meeting women? Okay! Awesome! Well done bud, and I'll have your back. The only problem is he then footnotes all of this with this paranoid bullshit about women are taking over the world and men have no rights and every night, are dragged off to jail just for going up to a girl in the bar and saying "hey how's it going?"

His "pick up" part of the business if that's what you want to call it is totally merge with the "MRA" part of the his deal.

So when you say that you don't know how MRA became a PUA thing, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about!

_________________
Http://Dating-Musings.com

Firstly, most companies have policies against hiring ex employees they've laid off. So you not getting a call is typical. Second, I'm confused...was your position this important and valuable? If so, it's just bad business to give it to a girl for being hot. So was you making this company all this money and they just gave all that up for a dumb blonde? Doesn't seem like they'd be in business long. Even if you say the wanted to take your commissions, if you're making more for them than this chick commissions are negligible.

So this art major submitted a resume and they knew she was hot and called her into an interview?Let's say she did. So someone at this company thought "Hmm, this is a job that manages million dollar deals, Rob did great at this job and made us a ton of money, we could get him back to continue making it for us, but this interviewee is hot to might as well hire her." You can't have it both ways. Either your job was valuable and important or it wasn't. I can't say my job is so important then say well a few months later they hired a monkey to do it.

Also, what's this Roosh stuff. So one of a few dating coaches talk about or try to merge PU with men's rights. So now it's linked to the community in some serious way? There are guys who link PU to magic and hypnosis but that doesn't theres some substantial link. From your own words you mention Roosh, which is a NOBODY in the PICKUP INDUSTRY. Mystery, Tyler, AFC Adam, Badboy...who really takes Roosh as some PUA? And you're connection to MRA and PU is this one dude with this one forum and a few books. I don't see alot of men's rights stuff on pickup forums. And Roosh is probably the last name mentioned in any pickup discussion lol.

I aint coming at you dude, just genuinely confused. You talk about MRA boohoing stuff, but you come with boohooing some girl who has your old job. Your post is all over the place and sounds more MRA to me than pickup tbh. Is your post about how MRA complains, or how a girl got your old job? Is it about how Pickup guys don't call each other friends? How guys are afraid to approach? I didn't know from reading your post whether you were Roosh trying to spam, pro MRA or anti MRA, pro pickup or anti pickup, pro approaching women as a game, or pro making friends.

Post all over the place. Ok. After coming off from listening to an MRA podcast, I had a lot to reflect on, along with what I wanted to post, so sure, this could've easily been broken up into 2 posts. But bottom line; yes, PUA guys are following MRA in droves, and getting sniped off as well; the point was to demonstrate that PUA issues

(those two examples, and only two of a myriad of problems) are being ignored and thus worsened by MRA thinking.
I've heard of no such policy. Ever. Name one company.
They treaded water, and from what I understand, they're sustainable; not at pre-recession levels, but they pay the bills, keep the lights on, and keep the people they hired, post-recession employed.

The point is they hired a hot blonde because she was easier on the eyes and that's all they saw.

As far as MRA making inroads into PUA, this discounting of Roosh is laughable, and no, I don't support him. This guy has several **hardcover books**, that and the audible/kindle stuff, I'm sure he's seen as a reasonable force, and what's he talking about?

Red Pill vs. Blue Pill thinking: a common tenant of PUA.

If some wacko homeless guy found an iPhone somewhere and wanted to jerk off on a street corner while posting about how he's a PUA, and women need to be stopped before they go too far, "all in the name of MRA!", I might be more inclined to agree with you, but there is clearly an established MRA presence in PUA, and my post is to address that.
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You got it. Simply put; MRA has dug in too much, just by my getting on youtube this morning.

MRA keeps guys from focusing on the real problems PUA faces, like, "Why do I think of a 'wing' as this secondary co-worker, then ditch him at the end of the night like a late night office acquaintance at a second job, to chill with my friends, call myself a 'PUA who only sarges with my friends, then wonder later why I haven't quite established a real wing relationship with someone because all I do is treat my other wings like co-workers, and I'm seeing it affect my game??"

or

"If two girls walk into a room with 4 inch stiletto's, side by side, noses raised high in the air, walk past you and your friend in a strictly linear fashion to a table for 2 that more looks like it was set up for them, why is my friend telling me 'naw man, you've gotta have 10 guys to be able to approach those girls'"

MRA is getting in the way of the men getting their own in PUA, that's all I'm saying.

_________________
Http://Dating-Musings.com

I forgot I never wrapped this up.

Your post to me was the equivalent of a heckler screaming "YOU SUCK!!" from the shadows, without having to answer for his claims - seen in your non-reply once I satisfied every one of your questions, leaving you with nothing.
This was a heavily client-facing and partner-facing job, and I did damn well at it. They knew that if they hired a hot blonde, she could flirt and flirt and flirt, and maybe make them more money, or at least as much as I did.

I don't know how well she did for them money-wise, but she quit like a year and a half later and her position looked like a lateral move, from her LinkedIn profile.

THAT is how men put women in these positions, rather than women doing the placing. Women have a natural hatred of each other, and no powerful female executive would give the time of day to the idea of putting a girl who has clearly been able to coast on her looks, in a substantial position, **especially** one where one could benefit by touting their looks, and especially if the decision-maker is an older woman. Now, **dudes** will do that, thinking of the value of a hired gun.
Roosh isn't remotely pickup? He's got books about getting laid! Many people in the community I've met, including an expert day-gamer have told me that they've read his main/popular books, "Bang", "Day Bang",then I think it gets into country-specific.

No, I've also mentioned that RSD has taken on this new heading as well, as Tyler has started saying stuff in his lectures to his 15 year old audiences:

"I was that nice guy who 'played by the ruulles!!!'" (mocking tone)

then, quoting the average hot woman as thinking:

"Back off! You little twerp! Don't be getting any ideas! We're gonna need you when we're 32, and we're done with all the hot guys." - a classic MRA tenet.

_________________
Http://Dating-Musings.com

I'm still confused. You're bashing MRA for things that aren't associated with MRA. How do guys seeing you as a wing have something to do with MRA? Truth is most PU stuff talks about finding wings. Sure I agree wings should turn into friends but that's not due to MRA. I've met many guys into pickup, some became friends, but many guys have the lets sarge and talk about pickup then go home mentality. It's not an MRA thing

And how is a guy being intimidated by a chick or chicks caused by MRA? Only naturals or guys who are good at pickup wouldnt be intimidated by a group of girls...but that has nothing to do with MRA

You are anti MRA, but you sound pro MRA in describing this girl/job situation. Your referencing your old job saying that the chicks looks are what she was hired for, but then you say her looks would be an asset? I don't get it. If you work as a bartender, or salesperson and you're attractive it's a good thing. So maybe she got hired for her looks but it sounds like it was a job where looks help. Would she have beaten you for the job? Yes. Would she have beaten you if you were an engineer? No. Accountant. No. If her looks get her as much money as you, thats the nature of the job

You don't understand.

- With the blonde in the office I was talking about how this can't be attributed to an unfair social system and structure that's stacked to fuck guys over, as the MRA's claim, it's just a few people being dickheads. I did a good job because I was saavy and driven; these assholes thought they could do better with a hot blonde, which from what I heard later, they weren't really (knew a couple people who still worked there).

This totally meshes up with what that girl told me about "the hot girls are placed in these positions by men", etc etc

So this totally supports that you can't make the MRA claim and say it's a system or structure set up to fuck guys over based on an example or two. It's just a few decision makers being inconsiderate dickheads.

In fact, I don't think the MRA's even provide documented examples.

- About the wings and the guy being afraid to go up to the girls. First, the big thing you really need to take away from the first one was that nobody came up to us and said "How dare you approach girls in a bar!" MRA's will claim all day long that this happens all the time.

As far as the second example, the guy scared shitless to go up to girls, and said that you have to have a group of 10 guys with you if you want to talk to those girls, he clearly bought into some sort of mindset that someone taught him The guys are essentially supposed to be afraid of girls, and the girls value is so off the charts that an average Joe has got fucking nothing, and needs that much social proof if he wants to stand a chance.

You never answered my question about Roosh, he has books on getting laid. Most PUAs talk to say that they've read his main books. Yes Roosh is a big MRA guy, And I believe those teachings are sleeping over too much into the pick up part, and people like him are starting to ruin it.

I use the Tyler, RSD, "you little twerp" thing as a second example showing that a lot of pick up now is kind of veering towards the MRA side. Why buy into some bullshit mindset like that, when you can simply learn how to get better with girls?

Instead you've got these guys teaching 15-year-olds to approach pick up from more of an "us versus them" mindset, and that they should pretty much not give a fuck, and not worry about how much of an ass they look like, because most girls would fuck them over anyway, reject them, and then plan on them waiting on the line at 32 when their looks of shot and they finished fucking all the hot guys.

_________________
Http://Dating-Musings.com

I think the primary link between MRAs, Roosh and RSD is an intense level of faggotry, which tends to lead to the same conclusions(though independently crafted).

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RSDTyler

This post would be so much better if the OP didn't seem really offended someone else has his old job.

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These hos ain't loyal

Well I'm not now! I'm talking about years ago, and how I thought it was pretty shitty that they thought they could do better, once they were in a position to hire again, and knowing my track record. And again as I heardit didn't work out so well for them.

_________________
Http://Dating-Musings.com

Ok, so now one came up to you and said how dare you approach us. So MRA is wrong. What does that have to do with MRA and pickup? How is that a pickup concern when actually most pickup stuff says just approach and I've never read anywhere anything doing with pickup that tells guys girls don't want to be approached.

The mindset you describe about guys being afraid to go up to groups of girls is not an MRA thing. Many guys have this. You're really blaming MRA for approach anxiety or guys having low self esteem? Like MRA is what keeps guys from approaching?

Again, Roosh my be a pickup guy or whatever, but he's not big. So even if he is MRA, most of the community doesn't follow Roosh. He's probably the most obscure PUA out there. For eg, Mystery is way bigger than Roosh and he does magic tricks. But it's not like most guys into pickup do magic tricks. And your mentioning Roosh like well if he does it, it's a problem for the community. Who really is following Roosh? If RSD was pushing it, I could see the link...but Roosh?! lol.

And Tyler referencing "twerpy thoughts" is MRA? I'm not even an RSD guy, but if he is saying that here are some loser thoughts I used to have and you probably have and I'm going to mock them, if the thoughts are MRA, he's mocking them. That's like me saying "Oh...I remember when I was a loser and jerked off 10 times a day" would you then link that to I'm pro jerking off?

Never heard of one pickup company telling guys that women will fuck them over. Not even RSD. Never heard "act like an ass because women will fuck you over." I have heard "Act like an ass because it's self amusing." Youre trying to link things and seeing MRA stuff in everything.

Roosh and Return of the Kings actually has a pretty large following. I believe Roosh has the most successful of all pickup blogs.

The reason he's not all that well known within PUA, is because PUA is mostly appealing to guys still going out and approaching women. Most of Roosh's fans sit around pining for the days when they have enough cash to go visit Europe and bang some Eastern European women. Which are apparently radically different than Western European women and ugly guys easily get laid there according to Roosh, except for how he only gets laid once every other month, despite literally living his life exclusively to get laid.

According to Roosh, he spends $6,500 and 700 hours for every chick he fucks. He says the maximum number of women you can bang with "perfect game" is 8 per year! And this is with a hard cap of 7s. Again, quoting Roosh So basically, he uproots his entire life, travels to random foreign countries and spends $6,500 and 700 hours of "running game" to bang 5s and occasionally a 6.

He is honestly the shittest of all PUAs(yes, I'm including David D and Tyler).

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RSDTyler

You mention that this "Roosh" guy (though i've never heard of him) is not a good PUA at all and you mention that he is the "shittest of all PUAs".

Who do you think is a good teacher for all around game (getting laid AND relationships)?

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PUA Maxim: Leave the woman better than you found her.

Chase Amante is good. He has my endorsement for the best stuff I've seen.
60 YOC is also very good for getting laid(though really has nothing about relationships).

Between the two, I feel that 60 is more critical, just because he's so much more simple. Chase has great insight, but he basically covers everything. 60 pretty much covers screening for sexually interested girls quickly, amping up sexual tension and moving things quickly towards sex. Since that's the most important part of seduction, I place priority on it.

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RSDTyler