Intro/Disclaimer

It seems like this community is advocating sexual openness and a particular view on how men should behave toward women and their own sexuality, while they fail to really understand the bigger picture and the other people around them who are not identical to themselves or the group they belong to(in our case the community). I Decided therefore to write an essay about what has often been reffered to as the matrix. Again this a rather philosophical essay. I do share some insights on evolutionary biology. You might disagree with what I write on this concern, but the main point of this essay is to illustrate how the secret society works, why it exists followed with a description of the members. I hope the discussion will be based on these facts and not the part concerning evolutionary biology, because I have to admit it, I am no expert. Also keep in mind that this is a very abstract text. This is just how I see the world. Your view might be different and I accept this fact. This post is based on an old post by Tyler Durden called "The Secret Society". You can find a link to the original post here: http://www.bristollair.com/2008/inner-g ... t-society/



The Sources Of The Secret Society


Morality In Our Society

Our society is made of a vast population - people from different backgrounds, values and desires. Groups will be created, then norms and from there constitutions as well. These moral norms have been created with an intention. Sometimes, and even often these intentions are good, but sometime they are made to create order in our society, without really having a good normative justification. Some of these moral laws have the purpose of limiting our primitive nature for the welfare of the majority. It can be argued whether this solution is a normative good thing or not. However, as a matter of fact, this is the status quo these days. We have some moral laws that have become somewhat accepted by the majority and thus become conventional. This means that each individual in our society expects us to follow these “rules”.



Human Nature, Mating And Sexuality

As an example, which this topic is about, is our sexuality and our relationship to the opposite sex (I am not taking into consideration homosexuality). Human beings require sex, all off them. It is part of our survival instincts. Evolutionary biology has ingrained in us a drive to reproduce - to bond with other human beings and have sex with them. However, the reproduction process is unjust and works like a system of “survival of the fittest” which means that some humans will be better off in their search of mates than other. The explanation is that humans get sexually attracted to people with better genes, such as looks, attitude, and behaviour. Sadly, humans are not equal when it comes to genetics. Some are more attractive than others as some have better genes. The mating game was rather hypergamous. Only the best men would have a female mate and vice versa.

However, things turns out to be even less egalitarian for men than for women. In fact each women have pretty much equal status. Men, still being interested in finding mates of good genes (especially when it comes to looks) they are still not so dependent of it. This is because men are more independent when it comes to survival than women. Men are thus less desperate about finding the mate with the perfect genes, but instead have more interests in spreading their genes to as many women as possible in order to guarantee their reproduction and hopefully impregnate one women will good genes. However on the other side, women can only be impregnated by one man at the time, and getting impregnated for a women is not an easy deal. She is stuck for 9 month with pregnancy, and if we consider we lived as the cavemen’s did, which means that no constitutions nor laws were created, but simply allowing our natural instincts ruling, then we can conclude that men have no obligation to raise up the offspring, whereas the women has to do so due to her maternal instincts. Consider that women are also in hurry to reproduce, as the longevity of her fertilely is limited.

The main point we could take from this is that most men cares more about quantity whereas females more about quality. Women are more selective than men – only the men with the best genes will be attractive to women. This however, creates certain problems that many believe we should not live with in our society. The problems lies in the fact that a little group of men, will be extremely attractive to women (often referred to as alpha males – a minority), resulting in the majority of men, who are less sexually attractive, remain useless (often referred to as beta male – the majority). However, for females, the story is a little different as most women have a chance to find a mate, and the mating game is rather egalitarian – in general the numbers of mates per females is rather equal. However, for men, it is only this group of very attractive males that gets all the females. Nature is mean. All humans have a reproductionary instinct, and this instinct is of a great importance. The problematic occurs when there are males who are not able to find a mate – in fact, this goes for the majority of men, as most women only seek the most attractive males and therefore only have sex with males from this small group.


The Introduction Of Monogamy And Equality

Men were able to kill each other in order to gain values, mates and welfare. This is indeed very relevant as we have seen, men are very jealous at other men who are getting a lot of positive female attention. This has resulted in killings, exclusion and any other means to acquire power. Some ended up victorious, often the strong males, whereas some lost the battle.

As nature is mean, humans have gathered and creating contracts – this is called contractualism. This is when most men, especially the majority whom were the losers of the battle of fittest, prioritized security over the freedom of fighting for their own welfare. Their desire was to introduce a contract that could guarantee each man a level of security in order to guarantee their belongings. A lot of positive effects for everybody have been generated this way. We have introduced laws and constitutions that guarantee our security, our belongings while allowing a development of our society that has benefited us all. However, not every aspects resulting from these societal contracts have benefitted us all. In fact, on the mating scene, the introduction of monogamy has taken place to guarantee everybody’s safety on the prize of his or her freedom. As we have seen, the majority of men were not the winners in the mating game, and only a small minority of attractive males (the alpha males), ended up with all the females. Therefore as the genetic weakest men were the majority, they introduced monogamy with the purpose of making a more egalitarian society, which guaranteed and secured each man one single mate – for life. This has been amplified by the introduction of religions (such as Christianity), constitutional laws and conventional moral laws. Marriage was one way of worshipping this new order.

This way, our society became egalitarian on the mating scene. The few very attractive men, who were taking all the mates, were now supposed to be more or less equal to any other men, and the men who used to be the loser of the mating games, are not anymore as big losers as they used to be. This is why the majority of men not only enjoys monogamy as a chose of life, which is in their freedom, they also defend the ideal against anyone who challenges it, disagrees with it or simply choose to live differently. Most women are also defending the ideal of monogamy as this guarantees them perpetual security and provision, for themselves and their offspring.


The Introduction Of Sanctions For Anti-Conventional Behaviour

It is also very important to point out that men were introducing this concept of monogamy. Therefore in order to control and force women to join their new order of the mating scene, they had to use rather severe means. The use of punishment all the way to capital punishment, sanctions, and high use of shaming have all been introduced in order to make women obey to the rule of monogamy. The most common type of sanction was shaming, especially the “slut-shaming” where a woman was judged for having promiscuous activities – these women who practiced the following were often excluded, viewed as incorrect, unclean, sluts, whores… This could ruin the social status of women, as exclusion could work against their need for security they so much seek. Therefore women have become rather protective and careful about their actions and sexuality.


The Secret Society

However, even though the introduction of the new order of monogamy which worked against human nature, did indeed appease it and created some order. However the laws of nature still remains and biology can only be appeased but no social norms can rule it out. As a matter of fact, women are still biologically the same, and the most attractive men in the mating game that used to have many options, remains as attractive and will still has the same options. The only big difference is that the conventional views, morals and values that have been introduced with the new order of monogamous thinking were working against them. As a result, these few men have continued their sexual activities with multiple females. But as these businesses were viewed as rather shady, bad mannered and immoral, they became underground and secret. A secret society was thus born.

This society, which would be more indirectly described as an abstract sub-culture had to remain secret in order to not awake the anger of the majority of men and guarantee the security of female members – as we just covered, was severely sanctioned for having promiscuous activities. Therefore the membership of this society was secret, with the purpose of protecting the members from sanctions from the majority. As this secret society was allowing for “promiscuous” activities to take place, which was usually seen as immoral by the majority (who were outsiders), the members who were practicing these activities inside this secret society accepted them. Therefore levels of non-judgementalism became a core element of this underground movement. The activities who were normally seen as immoral by the public - the outside world, was in the secret society seen as completely normal and maybe even moral.

Jugementalism inside this “secret society” would destroy the main values of it, and result in killing itself from within. Therefore mutual acceptance and respect of desires were the primary values that kept it alive. As most people, especially females feared the sanctioning from having promiscuous activity, these people had no choice than to behave like the rest in public. But behind closed doors, reality was completely different. The members, who again contained a majority of females and a minority of men, who were the most sexually attractive, could now be allowed to unleash themselves and let themselves loose. However the member tend to have a “normal” life in public beside their membership of this underground society. Most of them were acting like the rest – publicly defending monogamy, especially women, as the consequences of behaving or speaking out against the ideal of monogamy were severe. Therefore, the female members would act like “well-mannered Madonna’s”, non-promiscuous and hide their true sexuality in public. However, their behaviour was far from reflecting their true self. Their secret society behaviour, were these were sexually free, had to and undercover, almost non-existent to the public.

As a result, women would only behave like secret society members – being sexually open, open for promiscuous activities and being honest about their true sexuality only in the presence of either female members, or in the presence of the few men who were also members. But as the secret society remains truly secret, nobody from the outside would be accepted into it. This means that even if some members gathered, the secret society would not be revealed if any one from awareness from the outside were taking place. If an outsider were present the member would simply keep acting like they would do in public – behaving according to the conventional moral laws.


The Communication of Membership

Since the minority of men are members of the secret society, women could not risk being open about their membership – they, more than men had to keep their membership very secret due to the severe punishment, which men was less of a victim of – at least to a certain degree. Therefore the men had to reveal their membership to the women in order to allow the female members to express their membership in return. The other way around would not have been possible as if women could risk expressing their membership to men who weren’t members (which is a majority), they would not only have higher risks of meeting men who would sanction them, but the sanction would be very high. Therefore, men have to reveal their membership first in order to allow women to respond.

The way the male member communicated their membership was by showing signs of sexual openness and acceptance of human nature - by understand their own and the women’s sexual nature. This is done by communicating a non-judgemental attitude toward sex, mutual understanding, communicating an interest in committing promiscuous activities, in other words understanding the purpose of the secret society. The purpose as we have seen was to keep promiscuous activities between a regulated group of people away from the public as these activities had big consequences for them, especially women. When a man has communicated his membership, a woman will communicate hers in response and the rituals could finally take place.


A Sexually Liberated Society To The Rescue Of The Current Order?

Today the idea of monogamy still lives, yet is challenged as religious influences has decreased, our laws are more liberal as a result of sciences and awareness of our own nature. Still, the idea lives strong today but as our awareness of our of own sexuality has increased, many have questioned this ideal. Many have been thinking about other ways of doing playing the mating game that might sound more appealing. An example of what have been advocated a lot is the idea of introducing universal polyamory as a replacement to universal monogamy. However, these who advocates this new possibility fails to understand the differences between what works in theory and what works in practice. In fact, there is a reason, as we have covered for why monogamy was introduced and why the ideal is so strong – it is because most men are not attractive on the mating market. The ideals of monogamy were made to secure the majority of getting one mate, and keep it forever. With the introduction of universal polyamory, we re-introduce freedom of sex – the same problem that was around before monogamy was introduced, that is that the it will favour those few men who are very sexually attractive to females, which is a minority, on the cost of the majority, the men who are not so attractive on the mating market.

However many have argued for a change in our society by making it more sexually liberated, where everyone would behave like members of the secret society. That monogamy disappears, and polyamory would become the new doxa. That men and women would have sex with each other without implications and sanctions, no judgement for sexual behaviour. A world were everybody enjoys each other sexually, an egalitarian world where everybody is happy.

Of course, I agree that this ideal of universal sexual liberty sounds like a positive idea, but it remains a utopia that can’t take place, for multiple reasons. First of all, it will put things back where it all started – the same minority of men will get all the females and the majority will be left out without mates. A lot of conflicts as a result of the frustration of the majority of men who are left behind will take place. There will be no structure on the mating game; resulting in no peace and the society will stop moving forward. Monogamy and restrictions of human sexuality was in fact introduced with the purpose of creating justice, as a response to nature who was acting unjust. Therefore it is practically impossible to introduce this utopia. Also, if we leave out this problem and consider the mating game completely egalitarian (which it is not), then the introduction of a society that is completely sexually free will result in the death of the secret society, which will remove from the members all the privileges we have gathered. We might sound egoistical, but that is what an attractive male is, and deep inside of us, we do not want to risk our privileges for the common good, especially when there other solutions that are better such as having universal ideal of monogamy in our society, while having a secret society that remains underground. This way, everyone becomes happy. The males who were usually not attractive on the mate market will now be under control, while they will remain ignorant of the fact that their woman, who still seeks the most attractive males, will keep having sex with these males in the context of a secret society.



Equality – Making All Men Into Secret Society Members?

Many would argue that all these men, who are not favourable on the mating market, could simply work on themselves and thus become secret society member on their own. All that is required to make the mating game just and fair was to hope that men would simply work on their beliefs, attitudes and confidence and thus become sexually attractive secret society member. There are multiple objections to the following. The first one is that not all men are fitted for development – in fact they lack ambitions to do so. They are lazy. Laziness and lacking motivation to pursue any higher goals is one of the greatest signs of weakness – which is unattractive to women. These men do not want to get better. On the other hand, we need those men – not everyone can or should become winners. Of course some men can become more sexually attractive and become secret society members, simply because the required ambitions, they have the ambitions most men doesn’t have and they are willing to fight for welfare, status and their own well being. This is a rare trait, and even if those men don’t have any success yet, they still have the potentials. That is all that matters.

Keep in mind that looks shows good genetics and is attractive to women, but attitude and confidence is also very important, maybe even more. The good thing is that these things can be handled, and a man can develop himself into a sexually attractive male. He can also better his looks for that instance. Women find men with potentials really attractive as well, of course less than men who already have success, but if a man wants to succeed and pursue his goals, he will get there. Some men would have to work more than others, but if a man truly seeks victory, victory should follow. But the majority are not among those, they are not willing to change, they are not willing to challenge their beliefs, they are not willing to move away from their misery and these men simply want to be stuck in their weak life. Therefore the idea of monogamy will remain to exist, because these men will remain the way they are, and would remain “happy” about it.


The Traits Of The Secret Society

However, a man with ambitions and willing to change will not be guaranteed an entrance into the secret society. Many men do have social success, often when it comes to power, and social values. These things are indeed attractive, but are not secret society like. These traits are attractive to women, but in a way that is not purely sexual. In fact, women become rather interested in the man’s social values rather than sex. This makes them rather good providers rather than good lovers, men who are used simply for sex, the sex itself. Instead, these men who are good providers, are actually well fitted for monogamy. Women in fact, have nothing against keeping a man for a long time, in a monogamous relationship, as this guarantees her security and welfare. However, they will still seek the best genes and the best sex. The men who are the most sexually attractive to women are secret society members. These members are very confident about sexuality, have an attractive attitude and positive mindsets around sex and women. As we have covered above, any “rituals” that takes place in the secret society are viewed as taboo, and therefore a man needs to sub-communicate his membership to women in order to allow them to take place.

Therefore a man who wants to become a member of the secret society need to have ambitions to challenge themselves and the conventional views about sex (such as those of monogamy), to become more confident, to develop an attractive attitude. They also need to learn the rules and the codes of the secret society. If they don’t learn the rules, they can’t be accepted as members, as the secret society is created as an underground movement, with the purpose of allowing selected members to live out their sexuality in a protected environment, and therefore a lot of precautions have to be taken – therefore there are a lot of rules and codes. The first rule is being non-judgemental about sex – nobody is allowed to judge anyone for their desires and sexuality, people gets judged a lot in society and the purpose of the secret society is to exactly allow activities that the public is judgemental about. Another rule is mutual understanding when it comes to sexuality. The secret society has been created as a result of a mutual interests between selected members, therefore understanding each other is a requirement. Other rules could be described as being passionate, adventurous and positive toward sex, the secret society was made as a result of individuals (the selected members) not being satisfied with the conventional practice of sex.

As the secret society had to remain secret, in order to become a member, men have to communicate their membership. If they don’t, they will just be perceived like one of the rest. They will simply not appear as members in the eyes of the other members. Therefore a man needs to learn how to communicate their membership. This is often done by sub-communication. Acting non-judgemental, showing mutual understanding, accepting others view on sexuality, being adventurous, displaying a desire to have sex without any implications (such as following any conventional rituals such as having sex in the context of a monogamous relationships) , displaying a desire to experience sex for the sex itself, willing to experiment and willing to make sex happen under the frame of the secret society. Basically, it is all about communicating the elements of the secret society, it’s purpose and it’s rules. This way, a man can communicate his membership.


Conclusion


Nature is unjust. Some men were very victorious in the mating game got all the female mates, whereas others were left behind. Sadly, only a little minority were victorious in the mating game. As the Majority were the losers, they have gathered together with the hope of creating an order that would help maintain justice in the mating game. This was done by the introduction of ideal such as monogamy, putting restrictions on men who had success in the mating game, in order to redistribute an equal share to everybody. However, this went against human nature, and those who used to be successful in the mating game before the introduction of these new ideals, gathered together into a secret society, hidden from the outside world, where they could practice activities that were normally disapproved by the public. This secret society had to remain secret. Therefore a lot of codes and rules were introduced. The main elements of the secret society was acceptance and mutual understanding, being non-judgemental and having a desire to commit promiscuous activities. While some has advocated the necessity of reform in our conventional views around sex, monogamy will remain as it guarantees safety and security for the majority, who, without it would gain big losses. Therefore the secret society will remain, forever.


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Hope you enjoyed this read.
Comments and questions are welcome.

PS: I might edit this post in the future with the purpose of spellchecking.

-Teevster

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Teevster (aka TVA_Oslo)
Offering Freakshows and fuckfests since 2007!


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This is so good man! Thanks for taking the time, this should be sticky!

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Thanks man! Much appreciated!

-Teevster

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Good post, agree with skills, it's a must read for people. Keep up the good work !

Wallie

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Discussion about the Normative aspect of the secret society - is it's existance morally good?

I have presented the following to multiple co-students. Many have agreed on the descriptive aspect of this post - how things are while some haven't agree, and argued that I was simplyfying different aspects of human nature when it comes to sex. But I have been getting a lot of criticism normative aspects - why the excistance of the secret society is morally good - what legitimize its excistanc.I am therefore willing to share the objections here. I hope many of you have good counter arguments to them, so that I can use and defend this view. Of course, anyone can use these arguments to legitimze what we do as a whole.

I know silvertree is against moral talking on this forum. But he has basically allowed me in the past to do so, mostly because I am not trying to make this place legitizime its purpose, but instead find sound arguments that legitimize what we do. The objections I got were against polyamory and promiscuity - the secret society as a whole. Their arguments were good, and sound. These arguments are not from random feminist bitches, but by professionals or students who has some training in moral philosophical discussions. Therefore these arguments are to be taken seriously. I will present you each of them. I will write them down in first person, as if they were writing them themselves.

Objection 1 (Somone else):

I agree with the descriptive aspect of your article. It explains [in a simplified way] important aspects of human nature. It is true that women seek the best mates in order to guarrantee the best offspring, and that it might be ture that some males will be better off than other (even though I might disagree that this minority is so small). I however agree with what you said about men introducing monogamy. One of the purposes was to forward a common good, that is security that most human beings seeks. However you argue that it is at the same time correct to introduce monogamy in order to create a peaceful and productive society, while you legitimize cheating, promiscuous activities... outside of monogamy. You first of all argue for a plausible order that might solve the problematics that occured during the human state of nature... but at the same time you argue that it is morally correct to challenge and disregard the aspect you have been arguing for - namely the descriptive enquiry on why monogamy has been introcuced and its normative purpose (why it should exist). In other words, what does then morally legitimize the excistance of the secret society?

Reply (me):

Yes, the laws of nature are playing an essential role in defining human behavior. Living, or making norms that goes directly against human nature would thus be silly, impossible, and maybe at worst immoral. However, if we base the following on a rational premise rather than a descriptive one, we could say that the laws of nature make us human being seek the best genes - which is undeniable, which means that women are seeking men with the best genes, and therefore, the secret have a legitimate ground to remain, because first off all, there are not ways we can work around it, it allows our offspring to be of better genes, while as it remains secret, it avoids any conflict for those who are outside as they can live in a life of ignorance- for the common good.


Objection:

How can hiding any truth and do something behind someone's back be morally good, is that an ideal society? something isn't really making sense here.The main issue is that you seem to use the laws of nature as a premiss to legitimate the excistance of your so-called secret society. There are a multiple human actions that are grounded in our instincts that are seen as immoral. Such as killing other. If we consider that laws of nature, it would thus been ok to kill each other? We do make moral rules and laws to supress these things as we do not want them in our society. Therefore monogamy has been introduced with a similare purpose.


Reply:

To adrees the first issue. It is important to remain on earth. While I agree it doesn't sound really good, there are no way we can escape from it. Morality is not black and white, some people will be hurt, harmed for a common good. Now, you might say a majority would suffer, but they would not as they would be ignorant of what is really taking place - the secret society would be non-excitant to them.

The excistance of the new order of monogamy has been introduced with the purpose of the common good. However, many moral laws have been introduced to supress human urges on aspects we find beneficial. However, it does not "remove" or "replace" human nature per se... as a matter of fact, even if the ideal of monogamy is isn't grounded on a descriptive aspect (how things are) it is instead grounded on the normative aspects (on how things should be), but human nature as I said can not be fully express and it would thus have been contradicting to hope that morality would hold back any of the human biological aspects.

Objection:

Then we all agree that monogamy has been introduced on a rational normative ground, for a good purpose (creating order in society). But it has also been created for other reasons - but still under the purpose of creating security, which is the main element of contractualism. What you seem to advocate is that it remains ok to cheat, or participate in the activities within this secret society just because the laws of nature argues for. Does the laws of nature, the primitive state of human beings argue positively for the promiscuous activities taking place in the secret society?

Reply:

Yes, the laws of nature are playing an essential role in defining human behavior. Living, or making norms that goes directly again human nature would thus be silly, and maybe at worst immoral. However, if we base the following on a rational premiss rather than a descriptive one, we could say that the laws of nature makes us human seek the best genes, which means that women are seeking men with the best genes, and therefore, the secret have a legitimate ground to remain, because it allows our offspring to be of better genes, and thus works positively - for the common good.

Objection:

But then, if the laws of nature are arbitrary in defining what is morally good, then killing somone might be accepted as human nature contains instinct that makes us kill each other. In fact, talking about surival of the fittest, would it be morally correct of me to attack you if the purpose was just to challenge you and see which of us would surivive? The laws of "the surival of the fittest" does apply for your these of the secret society as well. If you think that behaving according your idealized secret society, just because laws of nature accepts it, then it is okey to kill as explained above. The claim goes for both.

Reply:

But as I have just said, we make laws to supress them, in order to guarratee each others safety. You are fully right that human nature allows of to kill each other, under the pretext of "survival of the fittest" but our society do not wish to live in a world allowing the following. We have therefore made laws that punish people who does participate in certain activities. But as a matter of fact, killing does still occur, no laws can supress human nature. If we consider the theses of the secret society, monogamy was introduced in order to work against human nature, to remove injustice between men, but morality or law cannot in any case win over human nature but only work against them and supress them. Therefore, this legitimize the excistence of the secret society...

Also it is important to point out that killing is a much worse action than participating in adultery. It has much bigger consequences. Therefore, in my opinion this example falls and isn't valid.



Objection:

It maybe legitimize it excistence but it still doesn't claim it is morally good. What works in practice has nothing to do with what is normatively (morally) good. In fact, monogamy has other purposes that guarrantee the common good. It guarrantees men that their offspring is their, it does guarrantee women the security of being supported under to raising of the offspring (which would not happen in a world of promiscuity), nor does it guarrantee the offpring of being secured, taken care off by two mates, considering that females might be incapable of raising the offspring of themselves... etc The existance of monogamy is for the common good, as without its excistance, many offsprings would have difficulties of survival ... so if monogamy that guarrantees the common good, and the secret society works against its purpose, then the existance of this secret society is not morally correct.

Right now... I am stuck. Please, feel free to come with counter-arguments to the last one. I do have counter arguments, but I don't feel that they are strong enought and I feel that a similar problem will occur and that I will keep getting similare objections in return. You can disagree with the objection, disagree with any of the earlier disagreements or find an argument of your own for the legitimation of the secret society - why it should, why it's existance is morally good.

The secret society argues for:
- Polyamorous tendencies
- Promiscuity
- Hypergamy (can be discussed).
- Sexual openess.

So when you are arguing for the secret society, legitimating it as a morally good thing, you are indirectly arguing that anything on the list above is also morally good.


EDIT:
Possible counter argument to the objections - a normative argument for the secret society:

It is sad that the secret society has to exist behind someone's back, allowing married people to challenge their trust and act against their pact. Both monogamy and polyamory seems to remain problematic for that instance. Polyamory seems to allow the problematics that was around before the introduction of monogamy, jealousy, conflicts will arise as a result of a majority of men being left outside, without mates. Thus universal polyamory should thus not exist on any normative grounds.

Therefore monogamy is a morally good thing and it is well justified, however it works against human nature, especially for those who doesn't benefit from the ideal of monogamy. An ideal of monogamy was created to satisfy the majority and it has a good rational normative ground. The ideal of monogamy is thus justified.

However... as a sad fact, the men with options, and females (who seeks the best genes for reproduction) will not live by this ideal, at least not for long, and if they do, they won't live out the idea as it fullest. Therefore, neither morality or laws we hold them back, they will practice their "promiscuous" activities no matter what, there the secret society remain existant. Not only is it good because it satisfies its members, but it is also a good thing because it remains secret, which means that those who are left outside will not be aware of its existance. They will therefore take no direct harm of it. These men who are left outside will live with a well-justified ideal of universial monogamy, as long as they believe the world is a monogamous utopia, these people will remain happy. As the secret society will remain secret, these men will not take any direct harm from its existance and live a pleasurable life remaining ingorant of the secret society. The members will be able to practice their "rituals" outside of the social worlds, so that no conflict between the members and the outsiders will occur and both the members and the non-members will live happily togheter. From utilitarian principles, If something sums up most pleasure for the majority, while minimizing the level of harm, while avoiding conflicts (creating harm) by keeping the secret society equals pleasurness, it should also be taken into account - it is thus morally good thing going on.

- This is my last possible answer. Some might disagree with me as they are not following utilitarian principles (good action = the one that guarrantees biggest sum of pleasure for most while minimizing the level of harm). You are still allowed to share arguments on your own.

Thanks for your help. This is indeed very interesting.

-Teevster

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Great read.... Im assuming that the "secret societies" are a metaphor and not whats in the VIP Private Membership Zone on this board?!?

Its funny the progress in life that you never expected to find... I joined PUA to get better at picking up women so I could find the perfect woman to spend my whole life with. Ive never been bad with women but figured if I had my "pick of the litter" I could find one that worked for me and didnt cheat on me. At the time I didnt understand "swingers" lifestyle and polyamory. I honestly thought people were just unhappy in their marriage and used that as an excuse to cheat or whatever its called.

After reading post like this, The Red Queen, and one of the PUA explaining the Coolidge Effect I have a completely different look on sexuality and no longer judge. (Lol, can I join the club yet?) I can no longer imagine just one woman sexually for the rest of my life because of it.

So, I did find this amazing women. I actually talked to her about this aspect of science and despite being young and inexperienced thought it sounded sexy. Neither of us have had a threesome or swung...but I find myself in this place I never thought I would be. I have a great "monogamous" woman and the opening to be poly...

Whats the first step to blending both worlds? Im not sure I can go back now.....

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This post is totally awesome.

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For objection # 1:

If we agree that monogamy is an invention of our own society and that polygamy is the natural thing, then we aren't doing anything immoral. Cheating became immoral since the creation of the monogamous society, therefore if the monogamous society is false anything contained by it will be false, so we can dismiss the argument.


If we inverse the point of view of this critic, we could argue that it will be incorrect to hide the truth to alpha males creating a monogamous society by lying and limiting the potential of the alpha males. In the other hand it's correct to kill someone when they threat your security and that's the innate instinct; cavemen didn't kill each other just for fun, only when they felt a threat to their security.
Survival of the fittest is referred to an evolutionary process of being adapted to survive, but rarely focused on being the strongest of the pack; not all individuals are alpha, there are many betas that survive, the only ones dying are the weakest betas, but they aren't killed by alphas, they're killed by environment or just unable to reproduce. In most species if there's a fight they don't kill each other, the wounded animal just retires, becoming a beta male. That's the whole point of natural selection, making the best genes survive and not get killed by environment, therefore I don't agree that killing is in our instinct unless is for protection purposes in which it's legal nowadays (self protection).

The only babies dying would be the ones with weak genes therefore we will be creating a greater race. (This sounds bad but is true)

Monogamy stopped natural selection so we are infected with weak genes everywhere, weak individuals that are eating resources.

Before monogamy the alpha males tend to stay with the best suited female (with best genes) guaranteeing the health of the newborn, therefore in terms of a better human race we are against our common good, letting weak genes stop us from becoming a better race; therefore we can state this argument is invalid therefore the secret society isn't morally incorrect.



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Just some quick answers. Feel free to discuss my points.

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In this society that you're saying definitely used to exist, why would the powerful tribal leaders let the weak majority take their power away from them? The fact that there were fewer of one and more of the other doesn't come into it. I know as little about European ancient and medieval history as you do about evolutionary biology, but I'm pretty sure that feudal laws or even ancient democracy would have prevented that. From the rest of your post it sounds like you've been reading Freud, would that be right?