There are a few topics that are debated on the forum over and over. One of them is natural vs indirect game. The other is routines vs no routines. And then we have, oh my material is outdated, how many have read that book, do I have to neg, etc etc.

Id like to say something about them.

Most people who start out here suck. Really suck, that is not an insult but a comment, and it is nothing wrong with that, of course people such when they have no experience. Then another kind of people doesnt suck at the very beginning, they do something that works but they have no idea why it works.
The first class of people tends to favor indirect game based on theories and rules, the second class seem to favor natural game, you dont have to care about rules, just be a cool guy.

Again, there is nothing wrong with that, people will choose the path that feels best for them.

Now when the average AFC joins the game, they sit down and read, gather material and then try it out in field. Hooray, it works, they exclaim in joy and all is well. In some cases people dont try anything and never progress, thats just sad, those guys never got the chance to max out their potential.

Anyways, after gathering material you start learning more and more techniques, routines, theories, nuggets and whatnot. The more you learn the better you get, and all is well.

After a while, you start putting together your own cheat sheet with a lot of different tricks and routines and stuff that flows naturally, you know what routine will lead to what and when to use what neg and whatever. You get a certain flow into your game and you can easily go out there and repeat whatever your cheatsheet tells you and you will start getting more than one girl, and all is well.

Then you start thinking that, hey, those routines are lame, I could make my own routines and nobody will ever know I am a PUA. You start making your own routines and know how to create stuff that works at least as well as what others have supplied. And all is well.

A word on routines and PUAs before we move on. A ROUTINE is defined as something you do often, it doesnt have to be a routine routine, it can be the fact that you always recieve your drink with the left hand and pay with your right, it can be that you always smile at the end of a story or it could be something you like to talk about. On being a PUA, why be ashamed about that, we will inherit the earth.

Now you start realizing that even though you did everything right, there was a girl who was just too stupid and didnt understand that she was supposed to get attracted. Then you start seeing that your routines doesnt work as well as they used to. Somehow, your negs are too hard and your routines are too long. You dont get why that girl stopped listening and you feel like you have lost your mojo.

All is not well.

You go back to scratch and you improve your routines, check that they have all the little things in them that you want them to have and you still cant get things to work as it used to. Whatever is wrong with this picture? After a few months of despair and manly crying in the shower, you go on the forum and ask, do i really HAVE to use negs?

Bingo.

You dont.

You dont have to do anything. What you have started to do is overselling it.

Lets take an example of that:
- A guy comes up to you and says, would you mind taking my sister out for dinner? The sister is hot and well, why not right?
- A guy comes up and says, would you take my sister on a date, Ill pay? Well, still ok, why not?
- A guy comes up and says, hey, please please date my sister, she is really hot and nice and doesnt have any STDs or anything. She is also great at giving blowjobs and Ill pay you a hunderd bucks if you do it. She is a trained nurse and she will clean your house and she can hold her breath for 10 minutes. Now thats just scary right? When someone oversells something that looks good, it probably has some terrible flaw that you can see, its suspicious. You dont go for that.

So why are you overselling yourself when you are doing the same thing that you have always done?
Because something has changed. Your experience has increased, your confidence has gone up. You are different.
Before you may have needed a routine to show that you are a leader of men, but now maybe it is obvious. Maybe before you had a girl, you had to bring that up as a routine but now that you have more experience in that, it is obvious by the way you behave around women, behave naturally I mean.
Doing the same things that you have always done is like saying, I have dated that girl. And that, and that, and her, and her sister, and her mother, and your mother, and the one on stage. It becomes suspicious.

So what to do? How to solve this problem? You will have to do what every PUA should learn, you gotta shut up and listen to her. Learn the language of girls and learn to feel what she means instead of listening to the words she says. Someone said that girls communicate through feelings rather than words, that is true. Learn to read that.

You need to learn what "Switches" you behavior alone flips and which ones you need to flip manually. You learn this by watching her response to what you do. Focus on that.


In the beginning I was the same. I used to think about what I had to do in order to get her interested, what pieces I had to put together and I made sure I used them all.

Nowadays I see it differently. I start by checking what I have to work with. What pieces are already there? I dont think about what what I can use but rather what I can skip.

I skip as much as I possibly can and if I have miscalculated something, Ill just add that.

So my advice to you guys who find yourself in this very situation is to adopt a less is more attitude. Dont overdo it, figure out what you can skip and not. Game as often as possible but when you do, game as "little" as possible. Meaning that you try using as little material as possible and figure out what pieces you already have by just being yourself.

Hope this helps.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

This is actually a really good post.
Guys on this forum should be thinking more in the Artistic terms this activity really is, instead of searching for securities that a "cientific method" might provide.

I`m all in with your listen to the girl approach, problem is I can`t control my mind when overanalizing the shit out of every move the girl makes when I`m with her.

Here is the thing: I have always dreamed about a method to get k- closes out of every girl I wanted. A method to get f- closes with the girls I want to; but the more game I practice, the more I realize I`m there to improvise on the run.

We learn on the field gentlemen, this is not something you can achieve by reading or watching in videos as if it were some kind of Matrix.

This is something you learn the more you get out there and expose yourself to the cruel world. And that`s what women find the most attractive, the guy who has experience, the one that looks at her in the eyes by saying: I have lived more terrifying experiences than this, there is literally nothing you can do to damage me. I`m not afraid.

And even if you are, even if you don`t have lived more difficult shit, you look at her while sending the messege that you have balls. A rare skill men have these days.

You know your place, but you are not afraid of going that extra mile with her.

The day you live this art without fear, is the day you get more game, become better at life, are able to take more risk and not hesitate about it.

This is why I don`t think we are talking merely about ladys here, this is something that improves your life as a whole. There is no girl without getting your shit together; there is no game without trully knowing your self. Inner game is indeed everything.

Great thread! To add some value consider this possibility as well.

- You pick up some basic routines, you have success. Life is awesome! This is what you've always dreamed of.
- You examine your sticking points and find ways to overcome them. Again it's like a big bang! Your universe changes.
- You check off your list of firsts, you get exactly what you wanted.
- You keep running game. Now its so natural its clincal. It doesn't even matter what the girl says because she's just filling up the silence between your transitions. You smile at her at the right times, you touch her in the right ways and you fuck her.
- One day you look in the mirror and think. I guess I'm going to go do the same thing I always do tonight.
- You go out sometime later and notice things just aren't clicking. You feel like you are in state. You're sending out all the right signals. WTF?!

What changed? You stopped having fun. You stopped valuing the actual interaction. You can't have another FIRST threesome. You've already fucked a girl in the bathroom of this bar and why the fuck would you want to take home another stripper anyway.

If we stop enjoying the interaction, the social art that is seduction...that's a problem. I find that the more mechanical I am, the less fun I have.

Great Article! It's too true to ignore but I do disagree with one thing but at the same time do see your point. Idiosyncratic behaviors(your smile comment) aren't routines they are habits that you have. Routines to me are more physical actions and words than your personal little quirks, yeah they are kind of routine but a regular behavior of yours to me isn't the same as routine game.

Thanks so much for the article! Well worth the read and I wish this was something every newb read to begin with and intermittently as their confidence grows so they understand and remember Less is more.

Peace and Love

Vic

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Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Well, its a big much to call just the smile a routine, but it is part of a routine. You do it a lot and that makes it a routine. I input my definition of a routine here because otherwise Id get a lot of comments from "natural wannabes" who just love to hate on the Mystery method and that is not the point of the post right.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

Yeah like I said I completely see your point and still feel everyone should read it so I don't want to take anything away from it. I was trying to avoid the Natural game vs. routine argument as well but I'm definitely one of the ignorant folks you are speaking of.

Peace and Love

Vic

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

I guess I'm a hybrid. I DO think people place to much focus on routines but there is huge value in understanding the basic structure in MM.

I have solid routines I keep in my toolkit and I love them. But I don't have a hard and fast script. I've always been really social and for me routines are great touchstones that I can use to escalate and guide the interaction.

I hope I don't come off as hating on method or routines. I don't. I'm just not rigid in my structure.

Thats what Im saying, not being too rigid is a good thing. A good PUA takes whatever works for him from any kind of method. My own method is a mix of inspiration from everything from the MM to a bowl of noodles I had on chinatown. You can get good ideas everywhere.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

One thing about less is more. This is especially true because the one talking is the one qualifying, generally. The more she talks the more she is trying to impress you. And vice versa.

Also the less you say the more mystery you build. You might know everything about her, yet she is left wondering who you really are. Combine this With comfort and connection, and she'll really want to know you more. And this can lead to a Day 2 very nicely.

this is actually the first post here, that explains the transitions from a routine guy to a natural one. Really nice post.

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Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster -Sun Tzu

The problem with MM, is that it teaches needy guys to be "fake alphas" , most confident women will see right through that(exhibit Lisa from the game), unless it is a girl that likes you, from the go or that is needy herself... I think in the long term MM will do more harm than good to anybody(exhibit Mystery in a mental hospital who could no keep a girl and was extremely needy).... But as you say you can take bit and pisses from mm, i took the 3 second rule(in some cases), the Bitch Shield concept, the never giving straight answers and some terminology... If you want to explore the problems with mm, read the book "Models" it breaks down with real life example the problems with it.

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The problem is no the method, it is the people using it wrong. Everyone sees it as a holy grail of getting women but it isnt.

The MM is basically a Johnny Depp suit that you can put on and experience what it is to be a star for a while. Basically, it is a way to get scared people out there and get some practice.

The MM is a schoolbook, best left behind once you have learned what you can from it, keep the good parts and dump the bad parts.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

Don't bother. I've learned long ago that trying to expose MM for what it is (retarded) gets you no where. Most people are to brainwashed.

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