Eddie, thats cool. You can think you're the selector but don't mistake her selection for you. You are not some god getting her to spread her legs open by psychic blabber .

The thing I think you're not getting is, I don't get any woman to spread her legs for me... I decide to spread my legs for them. This is the level you should be aiming for. I am not the pursuer when I seduce, i am the one being pursued. Do you understand this?

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Nice. I get it.

That is what separates the PUA you claim to be "non existent" from the men that are just out running wild approaching women. It's more of an "art form" and a practice when you're seductions are framed in a way when you set you're self up to be seduced by the woman. It is truly an art when you learn to master it, and the guys that do exceptionally well out there can attest to this.

Its like the difference between a solid street fighter who throws strong haymakers and has a solid defense and a man who is organized that practices and studies the art of fighting. I'd be happy to SPAM with you if you would like to go further into the subject

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Dude, you are the Bruce Lee of pick up. I dont think you realize this. I think you have reached a level of perception in the game that many try to achieve. Many of us dont have the natural social abilities to recognize IOI's and such to be where youre at so you think that Pick up is B.S.

I respect your opinion but the game can be taught through routines and such and hopefully be brought to your understanding on your level.

Frankly, it makes we wonder why you are even on these forums if you are at this level of perception as far as "The Game" and your view on pick up artist.

We all have different backgrounds and different reasons for being and attempting to learn this art. And it is an art - to say anything less would be disrespectful and you should really just leave the forum if you do not feel the same. I enjoy learning pick up and the community. If you do not feel the same you should do your thing and go your way. This way has worked for many men and I find some routines and canned methods have worked.

If you have natural game then you are good and should not hate on those learning the game and whatever you may perceive as b.s.
A lot of this stuff is field tested and works. So dont hate.

As in everything in this world that can be discussed controversially, the truth lies in between the extremes. And most posts in this thread show an awareness of this fact. Captain Jack is a man of strong opinions and likes to provoke a bit here and there, that I noticed reading many of his posts in this forum and even if what he says often seems exaggerated, it is still rather true.

I realized in a very short time that sticking to "routines" is kinda impossible for me. How is anyone supposed to go out there and interact with women in a manly fashion if he has to constantly asses the situation he´s dealing with consciously and think of the "right" things to do? To me that is just confusing and it fucks up my game actually. But studying pickup material helps me to push myself in the right direction. What I do when I´m out there is an entirely different ballgame.

The key to getting women is , always was and always will be having the balls to be the man. Pickup can help you grow them. In the end confidence is the ONLY skill needed.

It's a complex question dear reader.

Firstly I congratulate you for being on a path of pickup, whether it be routines, indirect bullshit, or whatever you choose to do congruent to who you are. But essentially, you first need to look at your facts. Sex ends directly. If you cannot touch her, make suggestive physical advances, it will never, ever happen.

Are you overweight, deformed, something of a universal nature which most girls will shun (disability counts as harsh as this sounds)? - but I only seek the truth.

I follow a method of no method other than core belief that simply says be a man and take physical hold of a woman you have feelings for and don't be outcome dependent..of course there's an initial wanting, need for lustful sex but you don't let her control your whim. Embrace your manhood, pick up is this simple. No one is a magical pick up artist. In the end, it is the womans decision whether or not she wants to let you keep advancing on her for millions of reasons (which nullifies NLP, tactical guides on fucking strippers, and all this nonsense).

It's not about routines, magical methods, etc. If you have no personal issues (average in all regard),

You can branch out in any method as long as you feel it is embracing your manhood. Justin Wayne's method is essentially embracing your manhood but in a romantic way. RSD is about embracing your manhood in a manly way and being congruent, not giving a fuck. Essentially all of pickup methods hone in one one reality: abundance mentality with women in a NUMBERS game. But there are things in your control. Once you hit average, then you can utilize methods to your advantage or work on yourself while doing pickup and just being a man and escalating.

I was criticized by telling newbies that you cannot tell a new martial arts fighter to just execute a black belt move, but the reality is pickup is nowhere near as complex as any other field, pick up is the simplest yet hardest thing to do for guys because men around the world have been emasculated.

Hey all.

This might be a long reply, but please bear with me.

Since my initial reply on this thread, i have been thinking quite a lot about it. And i have been talking to some fine women about it as well (covertly, as in: they brought up the subject of men and i handily picked in on it).

I have thought about it and talked about it enough, and i did notice something peculiar. My playing grounds now is most of the time my workplace (for different kind of reason which do not matter now). There are quite some handsome guys there, having the same motivation as i do . They are confident and social. They dont hesitate to talk to anybody (its a big company, over 600 employees so its not that we are all familiar with each other). They have balls enough to get physical with the girl in some way.

Still, they dont get the same results as i do. I asked why and every one of them answered something in the lines of: they dont talk to me in the way you do. And i asked about how i talk to them. and it was 'mildly sexual, very suggestive', which would be correct as i will not go overtly sexual on the workfloor.

Other things that came up was jealousy, stickers (you know, those guys who just cant let go) and arrogance.

Well, beeing unneedy (not sticky nor jealous) cant be called a strategy. Arrogance (i immediatly knew which guy that was) is just a character flaw.

But i do talk sexual on purpose. Because i know that i has a certain effect on women. On the other hand, i am very sexual and i mostly i just express my thoughts. Still, if you do this because you know it has an effect. I would say this does look a bit like a strategy. Sure, it is not Mystery method, or some canned routine. But i do often say almost exactly the same thing. ofcourse, you check the response you get and you calibrate where needed (which i think is a skill you can learn as well).

In one way you could say: this is again just being a man, but put in different words. still, those other guys are quite confident as well, are quite alpha as well.

Perhaps PUA tactics like MM, C&F, whatever guru tactic are just tools to rebuild a man to what he should be, to break through the emasculation. On the other hand, if you dont show confidence and break through the fear (fear is a constant, will always be there), those tactics are worth shit...

No matter how you see it, its an interesting discussion.

_________________
"Stop being a fucking vagina and escalate" - CaptainJackHarkness

Like the naked leads the blind.
I know I'm selfish, I'm unkind.
Sucker love I always find,
Someone to bruise and leave behind.
placebo - every me, every you

I disagree. There are such things as Pick up artists. I think the term "Seductioners" is a bit more appropriate though.

I started getting into this stuff because I needed a mind reboot after a LTR went bad. Had no problem talking to women or new people in general. But when it came to getting what I want (sex, etc) I was just not getting it as quickly as desired.

What Pick up, routines, etc, has taught me is the method behind the madness. WHY things work. Why suggestive language, teasing, your frame, escalating, etc etc gets you the things you want.

Basically, every pick up thing Ive read comes down to one universal Idea.
-Im the catch. If this girl wants to get with me, she has to show me why she is worthy of my attention both physically and emotionally.

Once I understood that, the world became my playground.

Back on topic though. You cant tell me there arent pick up artists out there. Men who know how to twist everything a women says to conversation that brings her closer to wanting to fuck him. Maybe these guys dont realize they are PUA's, but what they do and how they handle women most certainly would be considered an art form.

I dont think any man can pick up 100% of chicks. But guys who have the knowledge and the experience certainly have better odds than those who dont. Thus is why most of us are here.

Dear Consequences__

On some level I think one can say I have become like the artist and am in a constant manner where I may think that no matter what I do, there is the inner-struggle that there is no art form when you yourself are looked upon by others as doing an "Art."

But there is no method to the madness as you claim because everyone is different in the madness. It's like saying there is a limited amount of space to control the way water flows. Don't you see it? Water itself has different variables like people. You cannot control water, you can only ever be ever-present with it in pick up, there is no art form to this madness that is life. There is no "structure" to life or women (all are different waves).

Seducer, as I mentioned, is essentially bringing the littlest possibility to a high with a woman who IS interested, but make no mistake in the end the woman chooses to sleep with you for countless reasons OTHER than your cocky funny/tease/neg/whatever MM bullshit you feel you are congruent with or NLP you feel you used, and sometimes this is hardly the "game you toss/teases you do / frame you emit."

I don't think in terms of frames, or teases, I never think anything and it makes me really realize Pick-Up to the newbie starts with lines. For me, it also did, but it does not take long for a man to realize one thing: Death is imminent. Death is inevitably imminent.

In the past, I used to, but then over time you realize while these methods are initially helpful for someone who has solidified themselves as ice, to flow as water eventually and realize their manhood is all they need. Did they help? Very rarely.

It comes with realizing other women exist.

As someone mentioned, abundance mentality and obviously breaking out of your old identity into that "cool guy" you visualize in your head. It is inside of all of us. You do not need any of these methods to realize it. I barely used these methods and then got many, many incredible women. Their escalation (the need to touch a girl to even consider having sexual intercourse with her) is naturally hard-wired - they are just emasculated by society.

They need to live with the reality there is no pick-up artist. It is a myth. There is only man and woman who is even slightly interested. The rest... is history.

Quick question for you CaptinJack

If you go out to a bar and you're jut sitting here having a drink and some girl comes up to you and taps you on the shoulder, you look and she says " Can I go home with you?

Who's Decision is that?

And then once you get her home, she jumps on you and starts kissing and you she trys reaching you're pants but you aren't to sure about this girls so you pull her hand away.. And then she askes you " Can I perform oral sex on you?

Who's decision is that?

And then after the oral sex, she trys inserting you're dick inside of her but once again, you don't really know this girl or what she's about so you put up a lot of resistance; and she's doing anything it takes for you to finally give it up. She's saying sweet things, reassuring you that she's clean and doesn't ever do this. And then after he trying and trying, she gets you horny enough so you're just like fuck it.. I'll have sex with you.

Who's decision is that?

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The woman had sex with you - was it your choice or hers?
Maybe you seduced her (your choice), but she made the final move (her choice)?
Maybe you approached her earlier that night and therefore started this whole interaction (your choice)?

Maybe she was on a good mood and therefore allowed you to open her in the first place (her choice)?
Maybe you wouldn't have approached her if you didn't have that healthy breakfast last week? Does this make your cereal the selector?

What a ridiculous topic, seriously.

Seduction is mutual. You are no god damn selector - and neither is she.

It's all about the mutual vibing and whether or not you're capable of taking action accordingly.

Sure, in every interaction there will always be one person that has generally 'chosen' to take more action than the other person. But it's definitely not always you and it's definitely not always her.

What's the point in trying to put a label on such a stupid topic in the first place?

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In the end, it is her decision no matter what she tries to do, frame it in any way. Also, label on the topic makes no sense. This topic serves to nullify the label and expose the scam of the industry - everyone and no one

Let's say you are right . . .

Wouldn't PU in that case be about influencing her choice of having sex with you/choosing you?

In other words, making the selectors select YOU out of everyone in the bunch. And doing this consistently.

Definitely sounds like an art.

Meaning that Pick Up Artists exist no matter how you look at it.

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In some ways, that can be argued which it has been, in other ways there is no such thing that is magical in this realm of pick up other than the specified "concepts" you mentioned which should have been made known to every man, but thankfully due to the emasculation of men around the world especially thanks to their mothers, and sisters, and even chained dads - they feel abundance is weird (only in pornography), they feel they are not a man unless they are entitled to it through money, their rich job, or their big house (which is true to some extent which I will not discuss here but is not needed to get a woman but some do look for this), and lastly they have approach anxiety on women and not men because they are terrified by the outcome (outcome dependency).

All of these things in my opinion including escalation and anything else is hard-wired in the core man. The only issue is failure to act on it thanks to emasculation. There is no Pick Up Artist in this sense. Only man and woman as selector.