Notice I dindt say looks vs game. Cause most often when this question is asked...
"do looks matter" you get people dancing around the question by saying...

game trumps looks, looks dont mean nothing, etc etc etc

Well answer me this:

What if 20 men walk into a club, ten are ugly, ten are good looking, and they all had the same pua training and leanred about seducing women.

Who do you think is going to get the women?

We always like to say if a man doesnt know this or that, but who is to say they dont?

Its not ugly guys got game
good looking guys dont got game

All could have game, then what happens?

So, looks DO matter.

You're right that they do matter but I think the main point to understand is that a lot more goes into looks than your "natural beauty". And the amount they matter isn't as much as many think. Again, it all will depend on the girl because some are shallow.

I know good looking guys who barely ever get laid. They can help you A LOT. Don't get me wrong, but if you're going to restrict creating attraction to physical traits I think you are very wrong.

Looks do matter...to a degree. Looks don't hurt your game by any means but you still need skills. I know good looking rich guys with great careers that couldn't approach a woman to save their life. LOL. And one is literally a heart surgeon.

First of all, if 20 guys roll into a club together as a woman I'd get a little concerned they were out on the prowl. Its possible that action could completely screw up their night.

However, let's say it doesn't and they all have the same training. It may come down to who picks the set with the best logistics, or who is aggressive enough to approach first as to who get the girls. There are multiple factors at work besides just skill and looks.

Logistics are a huge thing when considering group theory and night game. A 3 set is going to be easier in general to isolate someone from to have more time with and build more rapport with or Single Night Lay than a 2 set is. If you pick to game the one girl in the group that is driving every else home that night, you aren't going home with her. There are lots of factors that could be there for the pickup. Large groups of 5+ which are rare can be even harder to pull from.

Who approaches first or walks in the door first? The guys who are able to approach and get in sets first are probably likely to do the best. Again this assumes they all have the same training and they are "cherry picking" the best sets in the room based on factors like set logistics, and other things.

No matter how good looking or how many skills you have sometimes you just don't click. There are those times that no matter what you do, it just isn't working out for you in set. That could be the best looking guy of the group in that set. Once he realizes he can't go anywhere the other sets may already be occupied by his friends.

Then of course if they are working with each other that can make a difference, or if they are working against each other that can make a difference too. LOL...

Again, I am not disagreeing with you on looks. Looks and skills help. But there are too many other factors at play like above that can make the difference. Going out for the past 4 years doing PUA, teaching this professionally, and helping friends... I can attest that its a combination of things as to who goes home with a girl and who doesn't.

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

I know good looking guys who get women, and they didnt even want them at the time. I knew a good looking guy who came to a club dressed in greaser clothes cause he didnt have time to change, he smelled of oil and grease, and women still approached him cause he's good looking.

But it's hard to use anything you learned, when the women dont want to talk to you at all.

Learning all the right things to say and do, only can work if somebody gives you the time of day. And when you are good looking, you tend to get the time of day more often.

This. Thank you. If you search around the forums here you will see many guys who are good looking but are searching for help with women because they can't get laid. There are just so many other factors at play besides your physical traits that to rely on that as the deciding factor is just not correct.

But looks are the first thing women notice. It may not be enough to get you laid, but you have a big obstacle tackled when you are good looking.

Ever see for women calenders like firemen and swimsuit models? Why do those things sell, cause women like it!

They dont make ugly calenders,a dn ugly doesnt work in motion pictures

Well this is why most times we say that your looks are an easy way to get your foot in the door. And, obviously, you're not going to get an above average looking girl if youre an obese slob with no style. No one is going to argue with you.

Some guys cant help being obese slobs. but dont kid yourself into thinking women dont care what your face looks like. Older women tend to settle, but not younger hot women.

If it aint money then its looks

Well, yes, BUT more goes into looks than your physical traits. If your physical traits are top notch then great, youll have an easier time. But if you have: great style, good grooming, and poised body language that also helps majorly even if you didnt win the genetic lottery. More goes into what determines "looks" for a girl than just nice physical characteristics.

Yes, but in a bar full of all kinds from hot to ugly, a short ugly guy isnt liekly to get much conversation, or be able to start one.

When did I say that? What I am saying is that if you're going to base attraction just on physical characteristics you are simply flat out WRONG. They can help you a lot. Not disagreeing. But to say a girl is going to base on whether she is attracted to you or not on how your face/body looks is not true at all.

shes not basing her attraction on anything. Either she is or she isnt attracted to you. The only decision she will make is whether or not to fuck you.

Thats when game comes into play, but if shes not into you sexually, she will think of what u bring to the table as a companion.

But were talking about getting laid.

Something else to consider here gentleman. You said that looks can open doors for you to talk to the girl, sure! No dispute there at all. However, keep in mind if we are using the bar or night club settings... girls can hang out with their friends, drink, and listen to music at home. They are out to be social! Thus, they are out to be approached and talked to.

Thus, if your approach is good rarely if ever does a group reject you. I've approached groups ranging in size from 1 to 30+. I have spoken to all male groups, mixed sets, and all female groups. People generally don't reject you coming over to talk to them, they may reject something about your approach.

People are out to be around other people because that is a desire we have as a race to be around others. Talking to others in a social settings is normal. Just because there is a hotter guy in the room than me that I showed up with doesn't mean I'm going to get the cold shoulder either. It's more in "HOW" you approach with your energy level, body language, tonality, and your opener than it has to do with your looks.

Looks can get you a ways, and they can even create some intial instant attraction. There are those men out there who are attractive but open their mouths and the girls are ready to leave them. Then there are those that know how to use that to further the relationship with her as well.

Hell there are those guys with all kinds of looks and game that I can't even get to approach after putting my foot in their ass. Looks help but it's not an absolute to your game. Its not easier to approach because you look good.

I have a little thing I use to have my students do to build confidence in themselves. I use to have my guys go up to women and try to get blown out of 3 sets. They had 3 rules they had to follow.

1. The set must leave you, you can't leave the set. Even if no one is talking.
2. You can say anything you want but no cussing or no insulting.

What they found out was women are actually very accomodating and its a lot harder to get blown out of set than they realized. This helped them realize that despite their looks or ideas about women that they actually had several chances to get the girl in the night, and had some time in which to do it.

Can you get blown out during the approach...sure! You can act uber creepy and do really crazy things but its harder than you think. Half the time when you try that hard they think you are trying to be cute and original making fun of creepy guys who hit on women. LOL.

I use to try to get blown out by asking women, "Hey want to come back to my place for sex and pizza? NO! What the hell do you got against pizza?" What I thought would blow me out got me laughs...even as chessy as an opener as it was.

Looks can matter...being in shape is a health indicator and ups attraction, tanning, nice hair styles, good fitting clothing, etc. All these things circling around looks can make a difference but a very small one. Some of the best pickup work I've done was when I was in some crappy jeans and t-shirts...

If I had to assign a percentage to how much it helps...if you were really in shape with a nice body, great clothes, awesome hair, white teeth, tanned, no acne, etc. I would say it would help your chances some 5% over someone who isn't as nice to look at but has equal game. There will prob be 5 more girls out of 100 that are shallow and will like you more just because of your appearance and will give you more "rope" with your game.

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...