I think you said that quite well Ezo, really got straight to the point.

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Best of Luck
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Aspiring Artist

Read the adventures I take as I discover my way towards becoming a mPUA or a dPUA (decent PUA) including completing the StyleChallenge ---> raphaels-journel-vt119594.html

And it's probably worth stating to be absolutely clear that I did not make this post out of anger. But when so many guys say that women like being treated like shit, or take the opposite stance and say that they want to be the nice guy, no one on those sides seems to get what we mean when we talk about an AFC. An AFC isn't just a decent human being who happens to have bad luck with women. An AFC makes fundamentally unsound decisions with his relationships again and again without recognizing that he may need to change things up.

I appreciate the input. I've always maintained I will be a nice guy with the backbone to tell a girl that I won't be taken advantage of just because she has a vagina. This thread cleared my head up a bit while I'm in a bit of a rut.

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These hos ain't loyal

So ironic people on here advocate honesty yet use these pussy ambiguous techniques to get in a woman's pants lol smh.

Please provide a link where I advocate "pussy ambiguous techniques" and we can discuss the matter further. Man you're seeing a turning point in pickup philosophy. Yes, it used to be about dishonesty, about pretending to be someone you're not. But the last couple of years, from what I gather, have brought about a radical change in ideology that has led to putting the routines aside in favor of just restoring your own masculinity. At least in America, the adult male has been culturally castrated as traits considered masculine are deemed negative.

So you don't wanna use dishonesty, that's cool, but maybe you should take a moment to learn more rather than watching an epsode of the pickup artist on vh1 reality rerun tv.

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These hos ain't loyal

Totally agreed.

But this is also the reason why people see PUA's as scumbags.
Whichever way you turn it, pick up is the way to get sexual relationships and although everyone has sex, the general opinion says it's wrong to go explicitly after it. (I believe we can thank christianity for that, but that's another discussion for another time.)

So, if your intention is a sexual relationship, some people may think you're a bad person.

In the end, it really doesn't matter. The people who think you're a bad person because you are going after it instead of just hoping someday someone will fall in love with you are generally the people you don't want as friends.
-Queen, Good Company

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Quantity. For someday, you will find quality. And you gotta do something in the meantime.

Just when I was thinking about making a thread on "good guys"...

I totally agree with everything you said, DJ. I do think that the intention is what really matters when it come to doing something nice.

Lately, I've seen a ton of pictures on the web from frustrated "good guy" like this one: http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyfup ... o1_500.jpg

In my opinion, this guy is probably doing a lot of nice things for the girl he likes, but he's only doing it as a way to get sex from her in exchange... And he gets mad when he realize this is not working.

Then, what is a GOOD GUY?

...

For anyone who've been in the community for quite some time, you probably heard many time the " Good guys finishes last" principle. In my opinion, it should be something like: "AFC guys with no idea how to seduce a girl who buy her stuff like flowers just to get sex from her" finishes last.

I've always considered myself as a good guy, and I can tell you one thing for sure: I don't finish last.

Of course, I never buy flowers to the girl I'm flirting with, I will not pay for her, but I will always remain respectful and nice to her (Almost* always). If I do something nice for her, like holding the door, it's not because I want to get sex from her, it's just because I wanted to do something nice because I felt like it. Of course, I want to have sex with the girl but I will find other way to get to that goal.

Anyways, I'm really hangover and I forgot where I wanted to go with this... I'll come back at you guys later!

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Dear Optimist, Pessimist & Realist,

Just to let you know that while you guys were arguing about the glass of water...... I drank it!

Sincerely, the Opportunist

1) I met a few old school doormen. They did the old school nice guy routine. Can I buy u drink. Here is the difference. Their voice and body language was very powerful.

2) Traditional nice guys, have a shaky voice and are scared to have a fun conversation, and are fearfull of saying anything risky, showing fear of offending the target. The guy can be a cage fighter, but at that moment in time of approaching, he is showing that he is scared of a girl.

However there are times when I have spoken to someone and genuinely said hello without an agenda, just being polite. The target assumed I was trying to pick her up. Even ugly people look down on u being polite, they do not realise that u r only using them for practice.

To sum it up, if u r a nice guy, but look scared in a social situation and not having fun, it is not cool, but u can be cool if u r nice guy who is fun and socially confident.

A nice guy that does nice things, but does not expect anything back, will deal well with rejection. Where as the nice guy that does nice things then expects something back, is more likely to deal with rejection badly.

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Good post.

I'm a good guy, but I wouldn't say I'm AFC. I was raised to be polite and honest, which I am, so that makes me good based on my morals. Doesn't mean that's AFC, so anybody that's just a nob hoping to pick up girls, don't be. You might pick them up and get some shags but a nobody wants a relationship with a cunt.

There's probably still some AFC left in me, but I'm getting rid of it whilst still maintaining my profile being a man. A man is honest, hard working, polite etc.

Im a good boy who became a bad boy who became a good guy. Makes sense?

To win a womans heart you cant be a dick, but dont be a pussy either.

Dont let anybody walk all over you but dont walk all over people either.

Im nice enough until someone piss me off, then Im evil.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

Yeah, I really don't think AFCs are in fact diabolical villains. Most of them delude themselves into thinking they're not doing it for selfish reasons, and some of them just don't get that relationships don't work that way. I was the former first, and became aware of my own intentions and then became the latter.

In the end I got a wonderful girlfriend, my first, and she just made me so happy just with her personality and the fun we had, that I started spoiling her a bit too much. It started out with the intention of "I want to make this girl as happy as I possibly can" but somewhere along the way for whatever reason my abandonment issues twisted that into keeping her with me. I figured that if I was just the sweetest guy I could possibly be, she wouldn't want to leave me because I make her happy. In the end, that's probably what made things go south. I stopped respecting myself.

I think that what really matters is that you show a girl you can make her feel good, that you're willing to go that extra mile for her, but that you expect her to do the same for you. It's a give and take thing.

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I have a nice side. Unfortunately you just missed him. -Hyde

This whole good guy thing seems like one complicated mess. I'd rather just say i want sex and be a a@@hole. Sorry, but at least they get it more than AFCs.

I can see why it seems rational to you but unfortunately I'd have to disagree with this as a blanket statement.

You guys seem to be leaving out a very important part of humanity, THE NEED FOR INTIMACY. The perfect example is prisoners in solitary confinement. In some cases their need for intimacy is so rough that they violate the rules and would take a beating just for human touch. Solitary confinement is considered the worst punishment and most inhumane punishment of everything we have in the US, it literally drives people crazy. Most people will never be the same after an extended stay in solitary confinement. Intimacy is that important, in Cast Away he talks to his ball "Wilson" and that becomes his friend.

Now rounding this concept up we all need different levels of intimacy, some men need very little and some need a lot. Yes women are similar in this fashion, some need a lot and some need a little.

Women and Men do show intimacy in different manners though. A man may jokingly hit his buddy or take is his stuff, it's his way of touching him without it seeming to "intimate" that doesn't change the fact that it is a form of intimacy.

Our need for intimacy is based on both genetics and our history (how we are raised), the most important being the first 3 -5 years as far as developing our need for intimacy.

Some Nice Guys just need a lot of intimacy, they need to hold hands. They need to hug, they need to hold a woman, intimacy is a very important part of what they feel they need. It's important to realize a woman may get her need for intimacy from a Nice Guy which means she feels fine fucking all these other women and leaving. In Sex and Death 101 the movie he is trying to get this women that he is "just friends" with but she isn't ready to date. She was however off fucking several guys.

Intimacy is something us guys forget about or claim we don't need. I can prove how much you need intimacy with this: Go sit in your room with enough food and water for 3 days. No TV, talking, touching, or seeing anyone. You will understand my point about our need for intimacy. Very few people will be ok without any intimacy at all, but there will be some.

There is a lot more to intimacy than this, but a basic overview is people need intimacy and some nice guys just need a lot of intimacy.

Do I think some of what you say maybe true for some guys? ABSOLUTELY, but a blanket statement like this I'd have to disagree with.

Note: Intimacy isn't limited to just touch, but distance and human interaction as well. Even talking is a mild form of intimacy. A Nice Guy may just need that casual touch or conversation to fulfill his intimacy needs.

I've given guys a ride home and gals a ride home before. It wasn't to get them in the sack, it was merely because I know what it is like to be stranded. I've given a homeless kid a sleeping bag, granola bars, water, and a coat, it wasn't to sleep with him or for self centered purposes.

Just some thoughts..... Some of us can just be good people you know.


Peace and Love

Vic

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Just another guy from back in the day.

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Thats what this thread is emphasizing here, the good guy, not the nice guy. Its just to me really hard work especially considering a lot of traits are required and I don't mean looks but a job, lifestyle.

There is one trait for the Nice guy, to be nice. Everything else is just what people say a nice guy is. I have argued on the forum and have defended the Nice Guy. Too many folks define the Nice Guy as needy, unconfident, buys stuff, it's just ridiculous. A nice guy means one thing to be nice, plenty of assholes buy women drinks, it doesn't make them nice.

Everything a nice guy gets defined as are traits a nice guy can have. Can a nice guy be needy? Yup, but I've also met assholes that were needy. Can a nice guy lack confidence? Yup but so can a bad boy. I get so disappointed when I see some of these blanket statements, that is really my only quarrel with his post. It is a great post, well laid out and holds some truth, but being nice has nothing to do with every other thing people seem to picture the nice guy as.

Here is an example, I get described of the nicest guy you've ever met. Girls describe as the guy who is "just so Cute and NICE." Does this mean they all don't realize I'm a dominant alpha male? Nope, everyone knows I'm a dominant male, they all listen to me, I have natural leadership. I'm pretty good with women yet I'm considered a confident, dominant, alpha, leader, who is a nice man.

I'm nice from one perspective can be argued as a self centered concept, I want to have a good day, when I'm nice to people I receive the same behavior. So if I want to have a worse day I can be an asshole to everyone and get the same energy back. So yes I'm nice so I can feel better and have a better day.

Me being nice has nothing to do with getting laid for me, being nice isn't just to get laid with some people. When I tried the cocky asshole out it wasn't me, and I just didn't feel good. I also slowed up my game, I do better as me, a NICE GUY.

Some people are genuinely nice and happen to be interacting with a woman.

Peace and Love

Vic

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com