This came to me when I was answering a thread once, but as I sit here relaxing on a Saturday night I figure I will post this.

People on this forum enter debates on how nice one should be to women, whether being rude is "alpha," etc. Usually it comes down to an idea that women love assholes, they love guys who treat them like shit, and they despise nice guys. I don't think that's true, but let's take a moment to focus on what I experience as being most of the guys who start out as the "AFC."

This is a guy who attempts to buy affection. Whether he actually pays for gifts for a girl, buys flowers on the first date or spends two hours listening to a woman bitch about her life, the nice guy uses his resources in ways that he thinks will build attraction. Despite claims that he is nice, he is putting all of this effort to fuck a girl. The nice guy archetype that most of us criticize isn't nice, he's just as diabolical as he claims men who learn pickup are. He does not care about the girl's life, her job, her friends, her goals, etc. He simply spends his time hoping that listening to her, treating her the way he does, and brownnosing will lead to some sort of relationship. All the chivalry is a means to sex, dating, whatever his goal may be with the woman.

This is a savage hypocrisy.

I was raised to be honest, it's the one thing I value above all else. I recall one day as a teenager, maybe 14 at the time, I went to a bookstore to, oddly enough, buy a book. At the line to the cashier, the man in front of me was rushing himself, and as he went through a wad of bills dropped a $20 bill. I will admit, if it was a $1 or $5 I may have just picked it up at the time, but twenty dollars is still a lot to me, so I picked it up, interrupted his transaction, and handed him the bill. He said thank you and left. I began my purchase, and I saw a hand enter my field of vision. The man put five dollars in front of me and said "you're going to go to heaven at this rate." But I didn't hand him the bill he dropped in the hope he would help pay for the book. I did it because I believe in right and wrong, and I followed my values. I honestly don't believe in kharma, galactic balance, or anything of the sort. I must admit, however, that it felt good to be recognized. If I handed him that bill only to appear nice to people nearby, and to possibly get rewarded for it, would mean I did not do something truly good. That's my take on the matter.

I will hold a door open for a woman to the bar, but if she stops and calls for her friends at the end of the block, I'm walking in and letting it close. I am not against buying a woman flowers, but only because I've been dating her for months and she has been an amazing girlfriend. I will listen to a girl complain about her problems or offer a shoulder to cry on in times of need because she is a dear friend and I want to help my friends.

If you are nice because you think that will get you dates and get you laid, you aren't really being nice, you're trying to purchase affection. That's the nice guy I hate, that's the nice guy I criticize.

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These hos ain't loyal

you're kinda right....but not totaly.

" Despite claims that he is nice, he is putting all of this effort to fuck a girl. The nice guy archetype that most of us criticize isn't nice, he's just as diabolical as he claims men who learn pickup are."

i dont think any of us is diabolical,we give woman what they secretly want and afraid to say,if a woman would not want you,she will say it...believe me i know woman who got hit on,said no,and the guy didnt/wasn't willing, to understand and got several punches in the face and a kick in the privet zone.

also,nice guys do this things for affection,and affection only.
they dont want to just"fuck a girl"...after they have sex the first thing that comes through their mind is"ho,i love her so much...was i good? i hope she liked it!"
see the diffrence?

"If you are nice because you think that will get you dates and get you laid, you aren't really being nice, you're trying to purchase affection. That's the nice guy I hate, that's the nice guy I criticize."
see,there's one problem here...there's not even ONE human being in the entire fucking planet that is doing something of which he do not benefit from.
not even ONE!
we are hardwired to constantly worry of our own survivel(the outcome of that is our own interence)therefor you dont do anything since the day you were born for others and others only...

my point is:

a guy being nice in order to fuck a girl + he fucks her = LEGIT

but i can see where you're coming from...

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"Hank Moody: I love women, I have all of their albums."

"Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici."

Read This One:
is-too-much-trust-bad-ie-she-thinks-ill-vt123851.html

Main point, Be honest about your intentions.

I really liked that post a lot, and you are right, nice guys are nice (and not every nice guy can't make a general statement like that) but these guys think by acting X Y & Z they will get the girl. They just don't know better.

As for being a gentlemen, I was raised like that, and agree with you 100%. I will gladly hold the door for a lady even a guy, just because its a nice thing to do. I really enjoyed reading this.

Only thing that was fucking BS was the fact that its a Sat. night and you are resting hahaha

Californication - first off name reminds me of the song good song.

Second, everything we do is manipulating/diabolical. We do everything, as humans, in our own interest or the best scenario for us. That means negging at XX:XX time or freezing out, or this or that et cetera.

I dont think that is true about the only thing they think about is was I good and if she liked it. I think they are like holy shit I just fucked a girl, damn I cant believe that just happened. I guess being nice does work. Can't wait till I do this tomorrow. I wonder... was I good, I should ask... no that would be weird, oh fuck it. "How was it?"

You made some good points as well but the nice guy bad guy is just assertive/passive approach. I either take control of the frame or let them tke control. If being passive works in some situations I am being a "nice guy" and just brown nosing or what ever the term is.

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Best of Luck
-Raphael

Aspiring Artist

Read the adventures I take as I discover my way towards becoming a mPUA or a dPUA (decent PUA) including completing the StyleChallenge ---> raphaels-journel-vt119594.html

Truth is most nice guys aren't very nice. Coming from personal experience I would try to be as nice as I can and be different from the assholes for selfish reasons.

Try to be a combination of nice and asshole. Its a curveball.

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I like women

I think you are being a bit extremist here.

In my case, or for what is worth, Ive been strugglinf with my nice guy side for way too many years, that I find myself in a spot now that all I think is: who cares?

I was raised this way and Imma die the same, at my 23 years old I dont think I will be able to help it.

But my point here is that I dont consider myself such a devil on desguise, whenever I hear a story, by putting myself on the other persons shoes, I can relate and its rather an emotion I feel. Dont know if its chemical, dont care.

What Im saying is that I cant really help it, if the girl makes me put myself in her shoes, and is beauty, there is sexual attraction, Imma be attracted to her.
And that is way more powerfull than what I can explain, its the nice guy effect I cant really control, thou Ive learned to be more carefull over the years.

My mom shouldnt take the blame for this either, all you need to know is that you are thinking about a demonic way of thinking other people dont really have.

so wait, how many times did she say "no?" i thought point of pua is to not just go away if a girl gives a sh&t test, and continue as if you didnt hear her? and who punched him? were there jerks or alphas defending her? did she kick him in the private area?

If a girl tells you to go away, not talk to her, fuck off, etc, that's not a shit test.

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These hos ain't loyal

Agreed. And why do we do it? Because we can, simple as that.



Anyway, on the subject.

I believe people who try to learn pick up might even be better persons for it. In my eyes PUA isn't just a way to get women. It's a way to better your life!

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Quantity. For someday, you will find quality. And you gotta do something in the meantime.

Good post DJ_Z

I agree with you, completely.

What is a good guy? A nice guy? Is it the one who buys flowers or is it the one who says, fuck off, you are drunk and annoying?

The one who buys flowers can appear to be a gentleman, a lovable loser but really, he is the worst of them all. He is often doing it because he expects something in return, it is an investement for hima nd he is gonna get annoyed if he doesnt get something from the girl. A stalker. That is a terrible guy.

The one who buys flowers because he wants to make someone happy, without seeing it as an investment, thats a good guy.

On the other hand, the one who says fuck off you are too drunk may be a good guy. He may not want to take advantage of a drunk girl or he may just like to insult people.

Thing is, it is not the action that makes you good or bad, it is the intention and the reason for doing so.

Yes I know that a lot of people thinks that girls like guys who treat them like shit but that is as far away from the truth as you can get. They dont like to be treated like shit, not does it attract them.
Men who can afford to treat women like shit normally have a strong personality and many women to choose from, he possesses the characteristics of an alpha male. He probably thinks that the world revolves around hima nd he probably takes what he wants without any regard to others. That will make him successful and attractive.
Some people can have that alpha male characteristic without developing those bad sides, or develop them and choose to not let them take over. That is the true alpha male.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

so if you insult people, you're a good guy?

did she say it repeatedly? i read on another forum where some people said if a girl tells you that not to let her get the upper hand.

I would say there's only one kind of "no means yes," and that is when the girl wants to kiss/go out/go back to yours/whatever really but she is just being shy. In that case you need to give her a little breathing space, smile and say "ok", tell her you're just going to get a drink perhaps then come back in 5mins.

Otherwise, if she is being bitchy or just plain speaking and confident in the way she says "no," its definitely a "no means no".

I couldn't care for women who 'shit test' to the brink of insanity any way; they tend to be either extremely shallow, or very emotionally insecure, or both. Either way, probably not going to be a good lay and definitely not a good partner (if that's what you want). I think the concept of 'shit testing' is only useful to a certain degree; the
whole thing needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.
You can try it mate but it may or may not turn out too well. From my experience a "fuck off" only becomes a louder "fuck off" if you act like a cocky prick but I suppose its good for confidence building, a bit like the apocalypse opener.

How can I put this? No.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn