MM like other analytical methods are good for a starting point. This in my opinion is because alot of men think of women as logical thinkers, and this belief effects how they act around women. So i must say that MM is good for begginers. I also think that MM gives a good idea on how to isolate women from a group. Other methods just suggest that she will "fall in to your reality" and she will leave with you, this is not true most of the time, but when it is its very serious.

it could be said that other methods place too much emphasis on seduction, and not enough on solid game (e.g. comfort, 25-hour rule etc). So this could be a strength of MM.

AFC Adam (at least in the past), has admitted that a lot of his game rides on social value.

...what would say about AFC Adam's game, which you could almost compare to a "Natural MM"?

MM - gets people out of their comfort zone ( true it tricks most of us into it with false hopes ) nevertheless it gives people comfort to believe that if they fail at life theirs always the mm to help them.Its probably the best thing to read when entering the community

DHVing - Literally every method use''s this.

Maybe this is because Im still between AFC-PUA but i believe the M3 model is pretty useful . Although I am only achieving moderate success using this model as guidelines with my own material but Im not overly dedicated to this lifestyle

So Im curious, would anyone here who has used RSD methods in depth be able to post up a similar list of pros/cons?

Now I prefer to have higher quality women in my life, and in fact would rather have less quantity and more quality. My latest current flame is a russian girl, hb9 platinum blonde, amazing body, the full package. But to me the looks are just the icing on the cake, she manages a luxury hotel in my city and she has been travelling around the world for the last 7 years (since she was 14) so she has so many interesting stories....and a great perspective in life that I find intellectually stimulating.

What are the practical alternatives to MM that give the same groundwork for motivation? It's easy to say "yea this sucks, do it better" when your already past a certain point.

>It's no secret that MM encourages dishonesty

Where is that said or written?...

...If flirting involves a bit of lying, I can live with that.

What’s different with mystery compared to others is that he has charisma. I recently showed a girl videos of different pick up artists, she said ‘I definitely would go for mystery’.

Mystery and Style have created HIGH QUALITY methods and teachings, which are seldom matched by other PUAs. I find many concepts of Mystery are part of other methods, which was already addressed in an answer.

but I can't and will not fault the M3 method after some of the results I've got over the past coupla months

I must admit I am very mysoginistic at times, but i have found that women like that approach(they are sluts, and they need to be taught what to do)

I'm sure you've seen Warped Mindless's 2 threads on bashing MM. I'm sure you've also noticed how much of a space monkey (RSD fanboy) he is. I'm also sure that his blatantly RSD-brainwashed cult-like attitude and inability to spell "escalate" has put you off. Stop posting in those threads. Post in this one if you're not gonna be a dogmatic fuck. If you're not going to speak from your own experience, go away. I don't want quotes from that book or that book.

What I'd like to do is to open a constructive dialogue on the real reasons MM is bad without all the dogmatic nonsense from any fanboys from either side of the debate. Then I would like to discuss practical and useful alternatives to what MM has to offer without that bullshit elitist indirect advertising for RSD. Warped Mindless has attempted to open such a dialogue by comparing MM to RSD on a shallow level but doesn't actually seem to speak with his own words. I will speak from personal experience of practicing MM and coaching pickup students.

First of all, what experience do I have with MM and other pickup material? I've spent the past 7 years of my life learning and practicing almost everything that the seduction community has to offer. I have a very solid basis of understanding of the various different kind of methods that are out there. I also know how certain methods are advantageous over certain other methods for different situations.

Let's get something else out of the way before I start my MM-bashing:

The Good Things About MM

Microcalibration
Although I argue that social value has less to do with "attraction" and more to do with "comfort," (check out my thread "Sexual Attraction Explained In-depth" in the Mid-Game section) it is important to calibrate yourself in different situations so that you actually preserve the value that you "naturally" have. Newbies who give MM an initial read-through won't have a very good idea of what Microcalibration actually is, but the more practiced student will have a good hang of it. It's a pretty useful - although not strictly necessary - skill that helps you keep riding the social wave without wiping out.

Bounce/Extraction Logistics
The most invaluable thing I took away from MM are the logistics for actually moving the girl to different locations. Although MM didn't stress the importance of logistics nearly as much as it should have, it did lay a decent groundwork for pulling logistics. I still use the "plausible deniability" thing to pull the girl to my "seduction location." lol

Group Theory
Although other methods have better ways of handling sets with multiple people, MM does offer something for this. Even though your average MM student won't really know what to do once he has isolated a girl (compared to someone who has studied GWM and Vin DiCarlo, for example), he does have a fairly decent idea of what to do to in order to get to that isolation phase if the girl has friends and orbiters with her.

So, MM does indeed have its merits. However, the cons far outweigh the pros.

The Bad Things About MM

MM stands for Mental Masturbation
Of all the methods in the seduction community, it seems to me that MM encourages mental masturbation THE MOST. If you're not actually stuck in the mental masturbation trap of MM, but you have been before, you know what I'm talking about. I don't need to explain this one to you. If you are a newbie who has found this site right after reading "The Game," however, this one's for you.

Mental masturbation is bad because it creates a comfort zone inside your own head and keeps you from taking action in the physical world. One of the many downsides to MM's analytical nature is that it gives your ego far too many opportunities to rationalize things for the purposes of protection and value-preservation. This actually hinders your progress since you're preventing yourself from calling it like it is. The mental masturbation encouraged by MM will actually create sticking points for you and will force you to dedicate way too much time into this shit than you should. I actually wasted a few YEARS with MM, and I feel like I threw those years away in terms of learning pickup. We can discuss this point further but for now I'm going to move on.

MM's assumptions about attraction
MM assumes that the higher your "value," the higher the attraction. If you've seen this to be true from other experiences that you've had, trust me when I say that correlation does not equal causation. We all learned that one in school. Social value and attraction are related, but you're wasting your time if you're trying to get laid with a DHV story. Other methods have found ways of creating attraction and pushing a seduction forward a hundred times better than what MM could ever offer. Check out that Sexual Attraction thread that I mentioned earlier. Your penis will thank you.

Group Theory
I know I listed this one as a good thing initially but MM puts way too much emphasis on "running sets" and social domination techniques that don't even work out for you in the greatest way in the long run, and not enough emphasis on actually seducing a girl. Sure, you've got Lovedrop teaching pointers on kino escalation here and there, but most other methods have that shit down so much better. Sure, some methods like SS barely have an emphasis on kino escalation at all, but MM is in a pretty low tier when it comes to that, believe it or not. "Would you like to kiss me?" I mean, come on. Really?

Verbal Game
MM is one of the older methods, so I guess it wouldn't be too fair to criticize MM for having such a strong emphasis on verbal game since it's pretty damn close to the era when SS reigned supreme. That still doesn't change the fact that newbies today are using old technology and that they should upgrade. I think MM does teach that it matters more on HOW you say something rather than WHAT you actually say, but it still encourages people to think that WHAT they actually say (routines and DHV stories, for example) is more important than it actually is. David Deangelo already informed us a long time ago that words only make up 7% of communication, but Mystery still told you that you have to indirectly telling girls that you're a preselected protector of loved ones with a story about a stripper ex-girlfriend you've never had.

Dishonesty
It's no secret that MM encourages dishonesty. I don't think I even have to explain how. Unfortunately for the average MM student, consistent HONESTY is one of the most powerful seduction tools you can ever use. Those of us who have been practicing seduction for a long time have already figured this out. And, no, this isn't one of those "direct game vs. indirect game" arguments. You don't have to lie and/or hide behind half-truths to run any sort of game.

Hobbit, get your ass in here and join this discussion. I want to hear what you've got to say about this topic.

...despite some of the personal remarks about Warped Mindless and his views.

Could you explain in a little more detail this whole 'microcalibration' concept? I'm not exactly understanding social calibration, and I feel its an aspect of game that could help me improve.

Not exactly sure I agree with the whole 'mental masturbation' term or criticism, but here is my interpretation of what you are trying to say...

This 'mental masturbation' has us rationalizing our faults and fallbacks with false confidence and self-comfort.

This may be partly true, but some parts of the Mystery Method such as the Three Second Rule force us to approach within three seconds, leaving no time for mentally jacking off or false rationalization.

Playing a dishonest game can only help you feel more and more uncomfortable with who you actually are. If you go into a set and lie to her about your job, your hobbies, your friends, your lifestyle, and you are told that this will get you laid, it implants in your mind that who you actually are, your honest self, is not good enough to get you laid.

It makes me frown with quiet sadness to think that you assume that your "higher quality woman" wouldn't love being a "drunk club slut" from time to time.

Every woman deserves and wants the full spectrum of awesomeness that life has to offer. Being seduced in less than 7 hours is one of those cool things that your "higher quality woman" has a right to have. I'm sorry, but the 7 hour rule isn't about quality over quantity. It's rooted in the limiting belief that women don't want sex, one of the many limiting beliefs that MM actually reinforces.

Hmm, perhaps I am not communicating in the best possible way, or it is easy to take my comments a little out of context.

In my limited understanding of MM, the 7 hour rule is a rule of thumb for a skilled seducer to really capture a womans imagination and emotions.

I am more than aware that a high quality woman has the right, and plenty of opportunity to enjoy and instafuck, and the accompanying emotional rush! As do I!

Perhaps better to say that, when I meet a woman that strikes me as being of particular quality, I pace the interaction to progress a little more slowly, in order for me to enhance the quality of the seduction and make her invest more - this way I have her locked in for LTR or MLTR.

I could easily have fucked her on the first nite, just as I have done for many girls, and im sure this girl even has in her life - but I didnt let her fuck me, in fact told her she wasnt getting laid until the 3rd night we spent together.

So I might say something along the lines of its not the quality of the girl, but rather the quality of the seduction process that rings a little more true.

I am perhaps thinking of a wider seduction here, that of a mind and a heart as opposed to just fucking. Hope that clears up any issues

I have standards of conversational ability and intelligance, the process is more enjoyable for me, less dramas in the long term. You can really frame it how you want it. Just leaving less things to chance I guess...

But normally 90% of the time I will fuck on the first night Its just when you come across a girl of particular quality, you dont want to leave so much to chance, plus that is something almost no guy will tell her, every guy drools over her so for someone to tell her "no"? or "not yet"? Demonstrates value and standards.

Its just when you come across a girl of particular quality, you dont want to leave so much to chance, plus that is something almost no guy will tell her, every guy drools over her so for someone to tell her "no"? or "not yet"? Demonstrates value and standards.

good talkers are usually good sex. The best sex is generally with girls that worship the ground you walk on and will do anything for you. Or the girls that hate your guts but just want to fuck you and have all the moves.

What are the steps in Gunwitch method? What about it is motivating? If I remember correctly from when I read it three years ago, it immediately makes someone judge if they are ugly or not. Doesn't seem very motivating to me. And asking someone with no sexual experience to be sexual seems silly to me, but I really can't know one way or the other about that.

The only problem I saw with MM is that people used to cling to it and never try new things once they got to that level where they could do 'better' methods. That problem is pretty much nonexistent now with all this MM bashing.

Seriously, if I hear one more person use that "It's not lying, it's flirting" quote from Neil Strauss I'm going to fuck their mother. In less than 7 hours, too.