Night Club
Sticking points - no peacocking (wasn't wearing anything colorful or flashy, did not dance, looked around, gave off a pitiful vibe at times perhaps
Strengths: I planted my feet and let the girls lean in to hear what I am saying. I used to lean into them and yell which was bad.
Theory: if a three set walks into a club in a row, approach the girl at the end of the set. This way you don't have to deal with her friends who usually just keep walking and leave you two alone.

Openers:

"Why did you come to this bar to talk to people to dance to..?" 'i know people here' "who?" 'the bartender' "whats her name?" 'ering' "well i gotta go see you again" (super slutty girl was nice, but uninterested) Result: girl uninterested

"Why did you guys come here?" 'friends birthday' "how old is she.. 25?" 'yea how did you guess' "guess how old i am?" '25?' "no 23. how old are you?" 'oh no i am older' "30ish?" 'not that old' "27?" 'wow you are good at this' Result: blow out - girl excused herself and left

"How tall are you?" Results: blow out, she turned her back and motioned me to go away

"Did you come here all by yourself?" 'no my friends are over there' "oh they left you all alone? they suck" 'no blah blah' Result: some IOIs (brushed her cheeck against mine did not move away), but some negative body language too (she started texting and did not make eye contact), then her friend whisked her away and she ignored afterward.

Overall fun night, but I got blown out a lot. You've got to be on the dance floor having fun otherwise you look on the creepy side.

Sarged at a hotel that was full of women, but also 30+ amateur pick up artists in the room and just random dudes trying to pick up women. A pair of 30 yo Brazilian women got hit on by a short young guy pretending to be a doctor doing research and his wingman, a russian guy and his friend wearing a soccer jersey, an Italian guy in his fourties, and a fifity year old weird dude who served in the navy. So when I came up to women, they would just motion with their hands NO or GO AWAY before I even spoke or when I said hello. I spoke to ten different guys and said hi to another ten. One said he got blown out and I told him its normal. I was upset but the next night I talked to a girl waiting for a train at midnight. I asked her about her bandana and she said she works as a cook. I told her where I work and after a short back and forth I walked away. She called me back to continue talking! This shows that my much reduced approach anxiety, my approach technique (I walk at a medium pace past the target, suddenly stop, turn facing her at an angle, and talk to her at a medium paced quiet voice, then watch her body language. if her body language is open i come closer, if it is not, i stay where i am.) is getting much better.



I am writing a list of my sticking points and making a routine to work on them every day.

Went to night clubs with novice PUAs from the forum and from Craigslist. Now I have ten people I can call up and find a wing to go out with me. Keep getting blown out at night clubs, this week, started dancing at night clubs, awkward basics (two step, swaying side to side), grinded with four drunk chicks (good practice, but they grind any guy standing near them).

My self improvement method:

1. Keep spreadsheets (have been slacking off on those)
2. Sarge with a wing, approach, then ask my wing about how my approach looked like.

Approached on the street (women get scared when I approach them while they are walking, but if they are sitting downa and I stop they don't), in the park (best to sit at their leve nearby and open them after a couple of minutes without hesitation, sitting away from them might look creepy), coffee shop (eyeball a target, sit near her and open her as you sit down, smile, reward and ask her stuff, don't talk much yourself), and cafe patio. Best results day time - I've had a 5-10 minutes back and forth conversation, but I can't hook. The women just answer my questions and don't continue the conversation, waiting for me to finish and leave.

My goal right now is kissing. Kissing and hugging girls is my sticking point, so I need to find girls to practice with. Even girls who are just friends, showing affection through body contact. I don't wanna be the guy who asks for hugs and kisses girls on the cheeck and does not see that they cringe when he does. So I'll have to carefully watch their reaction and build it up.

Right now I need to meet more girls. I'm going to approach like crazy when I go out. My sticking point, my wings tell me, is that I leave the set very soon after I open, and don't stick around until the target indicates she wants me to leave.

I taught a guy to approach on the street. Women on the street get scared when you stop them. I felt bad because the guy I taught thought the women were interested in talking to him, when they backed up away from him, taken aback by his approach. Is it ok to keep approaching women on the street even though they get scared and it makes me look creepy and desperate? If this is good for my game, then why isn't the homeless guy on the street asking everyone for money and talking with strangers not a Master PUA. There is something wrong with approaching women on the street. Approaching women lately feels like running into a wall. People just hate being approached and don't wanna talk!

Women do not like to be approached. If you go outside and approach random women, one after another, you FEEL desperate. Women do not like when guys approach them directly like that anyway. The 100 street approaches = 100 battle scars method is just doing the same wrong thing over and over again, reinforcing the belief that you will always be rejected. When you approach, you get nervous, you think you will get rejected, you panic about what to say, you want the woman to like you, you compare yourself to the muscular guys who go to the gym at the bar you are at, and think you are not good enough for the girl - even if she likes you during the opener/approach, she will soon see that deep down there's something wrong with you. That's all feelings I experience and I just found out that most other lonely people think the same thoughts every day! It's in Intimate Connections by Dr. Burns. He is a very good cognitive behavioral therapist who helps people with depression and anxiety. I read a chapter, and I felt better right away! I have all of Dr. Burns' books, but Intimate Connections is all about the psychology of loneliness. It says that we fool ourselves into thinking that a friend or a gf will make us happy, but they can't and won't. Lonely feel empty inside and look for friends to fill an empty void inside. Now, the path to making friends and dating, is to be happy when you are alone, and not lonely. Then you will learn to like and love yourself, and give yourself credit for everything good that you do like get enough sleep, do stuff for pleasure, shower, make money, cook and eat. When you like and love yourself and are perfectly fine being alone, and do not fill empty, then you are MUCH better PUA and more. After reading the first two chapters, I went to a bar, feeling nervous that I'm going without a wing man, and people will notice that I am a lonely loser (if you are alone, don't bother showing up at the bar). I imagined that the bouncers checking IDs at the doors noticed me walking in as a lonely weirdo with a bad expression on his face. I stood alone, with arms crosses, leaning at the wall looking very alone and not trying to show good body language. I kept telling myself it's ok to be alone, and that my attitude about myself being enough for my own company gives off a good vibe. I did not like how I always feel time pressured to approach women at bars and it's torturous - the approach anxiety, the stress of performing in a conversation as not to fail it, and the rejection hurt. I decided not to approach anymore! What a relief. And then.. i felt very comfortable approaching. But I did not TRY to approach, once I felt OK being alone and OK being rejected by women (I told myself it is NOT an endless string of rejections, some will reject, and some will accept me), I approached naturally, just a girl who happened to be standing near me, and then another one. I tapped on a hot college chick's shoulder but she looked and did not want to talk. I just felt my feelings of rejection and did not try to walk away or hide them. It's OK to feel rejected. It mostly matters that you accept your feelings. I looked at the girl, smiled, then came up and talked to her. I was OK with being rejected and OK with being alone, and not trying to impress her, and feeling calmer and better able to concentrate on what the girl was saying. I used to approach a woman at a bar, then panic and work up the courage to approach another one. It felt like holding my breath and diving under deep water. My wingman did come for the last hour, and he said that for me approaching is easy now. When I was determined to approach and trying to shine my best on a set, I looked desperate, felt needy and scared girls with my approaches. When I became OK with being alone, going out, "wasting time" and not approach on a friday night at a bar, and feeling rejected, approaching came a lot more naturally.

So this book, Intimate Connections is good for PUA guys who feel empty, who are lonely, who think a gf will make them happy, and who keep comparing themselves to other bulkier, taller, richer, smarter, "sexier" guys, who keep discounting girls because they are not white, not blonde, not thin, not pretty, etc. and create a dating-blocking fantasy that rejects most of the woment they meet as a result, and makes something super special out of the perfect 10s, who always have bad things to say about what the set they opened was NOT, and what it SHOULD have been, who keep approaching, trying to please women, and it either does not work and they don't get women, or the women they get fade away quick because they cannot create a fun relationship with them. The reason I think the book is good before I even read the first few chapters, is because guys I sarge with all say stuff that is listed in the list of psychological distortions of reality of lonely people. And most of my PUA buddies, have negative beliefs about themselves.

Pick Up is a social skill to observe and understand the social dynamics and present yourself in an attractive way, whereas Dr. Burns Cognitive Behavioral Therapy approach is more about learning to create relationships with people, and making YOURSELF happier, and attracting others through a happy, independent, and healthy you!

This works: peek into a coffee shop like Starbucks. See a girl sitting at a table? buy something and sit across from her nearby, but not so that it is obvious that you want to talk to her. Read a newspaper, drink your coffee/tea for 5 minutes, then turn and ask the girl something situational. "What book are you reading?" works great. This works MUCH better than approaching outside or on the street.

Low Self Esteem = #1 Sticking Point

If you are a hot guy already, then PUA will get you laid. But if you are average looking, short, a minority, naturally awkward, etc. good luck and think again. Do you want to be going out, approaching, getting rejected, feeling very bad, and then regretting all those weekends and money spent on drinks, chasing after finicky bar girls, and not doing something for yourself? You might say you are just chasing sex. You are not! Why? Because guys who do not get laid, after months and years of sarging, still keep doing the same thing. They are really looking for love and like The Game said, validating themselves through women. And that's kids is like the definition of low self esteem... and I have it. And that's my biggest sticking point. A hot blonde girl put her hand on my shoulder and started talking to me, and instead of feeling great, I felt bad and can't tell you why. It's all these automatic thoughts and feelings going through my head, that I am not even aware of. After thinking about it, I think I was afraid of rejection and I thought that even though she might like me initially, once she takes a better look at me, she will reject me because deep down I am unlovable. I found this book that came out in 1985, way Ross Jeffries, it's written by a therapist/researcher who is very good in treating depression and anxiety. He explains how I am feeling and what I am thinking better than I am aware of it. And it all comes down to low self esteem. Most PUA guys I know have low self esteem and that's why I cringe seeing them approach - they look desperate, and I think they feel desperate too. When you go out to sarge, you get Approach Anxiety if you approach, and then feel rejected, because eventually, even if you do get laid, or even start dating, it's not going to work out and you are going to blame yourself. This book also explains that when you go chasing bar girls, you are giving them power over how you feel. They can make you happy about yourself, if they bit your bait, or they can crush you. They are totally aware of the power they have. I went into a bar, and I watched women get approached by guy after guy, drooling over them. I think women at bars 1) enjoy the attention 2) are looking for fun and adventure 3) enjoy the power to reject guys. Non-single women go into bars and don't flirt with anyone, just to reject guy after guy. So I mentally gave up on approaching. I go out for myself to enjoy the music and the lights. It's more fun! I also observed that I enjoy it more when I go to a bar by myself, without friends. It does not matter if I talk to anyone at the bar or not. Walking into the bar, and the first hour alone, I feel stressed, and have negative thoughts running through my head - "People must think I am weird for being here alone. The bartenders are talking about me, not buying drinks. The women must look and think I am creepy. People are keeping their distance from me, I look that repulsive." Crazy automatic thoughts like that, I was not even aware I was thinking them until I started reading Dr. Burns's book. On my second hour alone, the negative feeling dissipate, and I feel comfortable and confident. I can approach with so much ease! Because if the woman does not want to talk to me, I am fine with being alone. I've been approached by women when I am alone, and they seemed interested. This never happened before when I was out with friends. But still I need to a lot of work. I still feel needy with every woman I talk to, and I am afraid of rejection on a gut level, and I feel desperate for love, and that neediness aka low self esteem drives them away. So this tells you that you first need to learn to like and love yourself, before others will like and love you. You also need to learn to be happy as a clam when you are alone, before you try to create relationships with other people. This is a problem I had in school growing up - I was always alone, feeling miserable and unfulfilled when I was by myself, and ashamed of being alone when in public. No wonder it was difficult for me to make friends! You probably are familiar with the PUA term "social proof" - showing a woman that other people like you. I am inventing a new term - "personal proof" - showing that you like yourself. So this book tells you to give up on relationships for a week or even a few months or a year, and commit to yourself. Do what you would want your wife to for you - cook a nice meal, set a table with a white table cloth, clean your apartment, etc. Be a good room mate to yourself. If your room mate did not make his bed in the morning, would you like living with him? The reason people are miserable when they are alone, is that they mistreat themselves. You are mistreating yourself by sitting at the computer reading the forums or playing online games. Computers attract people who are feeling lonely and miserable, but listening to music or playing online, or going to the forums, will make you feel slightly better, but because feeling better follows effort (you feel better after cleaning up your apartment because you put effort into it; you feel better after writing a difficult computer program but not after watching a movie on the computer because the latter requires no effort and thus does not feed your self esteem, but rather drains it), sitting online is a doomed effort to improve your mood. So you begin to treat yourself better. You exercise. You eat salads, fruits, you try to quit smoking, you sleep more, get a better bed, wash your and maybe even iron your sheets before bed. You also do written exercises. If you do it all in your head it does not work because 1) automatic negative thoughts are too fast for you to deal with them in your head, they need to be put on paper before you can tackle them 2) putting the effort of writing improves self esteem and makes you feel better 3) it's a written record so you can show yourself that spending time with yourself is pleasurable. You keep a chart of activities that you wanna do with yourself like take yourself out to see a movie, go for a walk, eat out, etc., predicting how enjoyable it will be from 1-99% before you do the activity, and writing down how enjoyable it actually was after the activity. Schedule some activities with yourself and some with other people and compare. This all sounds easy, but most people who read Dr. Burn's books do not do the written exercises regularly and don't improve. Those who pick up a pen, really do improve. I myself find it very effective, but only do them sporadically. It's very hard to do the exercises every day. I only manage once or twice a week, for the last couple of months, but I am trying to do it more.

So to sum things up, me and the PUA guys I've met, feel unhappy with ourselves, and look for love from women to make ourselves feel better about who we are and we want the women to help us have fun. We feel desperate, needy, and we are frustrated and hurt with rejection. We think if we just work on our outer game, or learn some NLP technique to manipulate people, we will impress women and finally become happier. Dr. Burns says that like out of several thousand patients who feel alone, almost all of them say that all they need is to find the guy or the gorgeous woman who will make them feel better. That is totally wrong. If you feel miserable when you are alone, if you around a gorgeous woman or with friends who like you, you feel a slight boost, but you will still feel miserable.

Also, PUA tends to attract men with emotional and psychological problems such as social anxiety, low self esteem, and depression. Dr. Burns says that if you are willing to put in the effort, and he asks that you do a lot more than most therapists will ask from you, the prognosis is very good. If you are not getting laid, and you do have an interest in sex, then there is something that needs attention health wise - either your physical or your mental health. Most likely mental health. PUA will promise you a lot, and take advantage of your vulnerable situation. It sure can help, but I think it's best to use both PUA and traditional psychotherapy to really improve. Because those guys that pull single night lays every weekend, they may have a problem with getting close to people, and forming satisfying relationships. There's some really fun stuff in being close to another person. So I have this plan for people who want to improve not just in attracting bar girls, but also feeling better and getting more satisfying relationships.

There are three levels. Outer level. Middle level. Inner level. You can work on all three at the same time, and see a lot more improvement than just working on just one.

Outer level: your social skills. Your body language, eye contact, reading how the person is feeling and reacting to you based on how where they look and how they are positioned, approaching women, tone of voice, story telling, most of what PUA teach in boot camps at bars. If you learn to walk tall and stand straight, smile, not lean in when you talk to women, position yourself so you isolate the target, also the cat sting theory, and push pull fit into this outer, superficial category. This helps you look good when you talk to people.

Middle level: this is your relationships with people, stuff you can learn in coed group psychotherapy. You learn to tell how you are feeling in the moment, and tell people about your feelings. Also you work on "avoidance" - avoiding telling people how you think and feel. Learning to connect and relate to people, and also learning to be a good listener, and to face your fear. All of us have things we are afraid to talk about, but learning to be open will help you connect. It's also learning to be in the hear and now.

Inner level: this your self esteem part. learning to be happy when you are alone. not feeling lonely, but feeling happy and fulfilled when you are by yourself. treating yourself well. reading books, learning to play banjo or piano, working on your truck, building models, doing yoga, cooking, cleaning, doing things that you enjoy and doing them for your pleasure and benefit and not to impress others. When I started living on my own, I would decorate my apartment. Before I bought a carpet, I thought what would my friends like? Before I bought my wall prints, I thought what would my friends say about them? I was decorating to impress and please my friends or women I brought home, and NOT for my own pleasure. Same thing with working out. Guys decide to join the gym and "get ripped," and start weight lifting too fast. Many body builders end up with chronic lower back pain, or hurt a muscle, because they did not know that many of the exercises silently hurt the spine in your lower back, and also pushed themselves too hard, so that muscles would grow big fast. Working out to impress women with your body just feeds into desperation, creates an unhealthy body image, and is not satisfying. Whereas, doing the weight lifting exercises carefully, giving your muscles enough time to rebuild, not looking in the mirror or weighing yourself, and just being happy with your own body, doing yoga for the enjoyment of how good you feel after exercising, and going to the gym because you "enjoy the pump" like Arnold Schwarznegger said in Pumping Iron.

So the answer to how to attract and seduce women is that you do not need to attract and seduce women to feel good about yourself. Once you feel good about yourself and get involved in life, you will notice people will be attracted to you. And that is where you move onto step 2 - forming relationships with other people. You are ready for step 2, when you want other people, but do not need them to be happy. When you are forming relationships to share the joy and happiness you are feeling, not drain it out of them. So fix your self esteem, and concentrate on YOUR life first. Fix your inner game. Then, work on your outer game, like approaching women, flirting, asking them out on dates, etc. PUA tells people to approach women before they have fixed their low self esteem, loneliness, and depression, and it's going to be self feeding cycle. Bad inner game will drive women away, and you will feel self defeated because you have tried, and you will think "look, all these women are rejecting me the harder I try. This is real life evidence that there is something wrong with me and i AM inferior to other people!"

I found a post I like on PUAhate website:

"Step 1 get rid of your low self esteem

Then you should be able to get some girls. If you want hotter girls then you need to take more steps such as working out, getting rich, getting popular/good at sports/being a badass/dressing better.

All the community advice is aimed at people with low self esteem. People who believe there is something they lack when all they really need to do is not hate themselves.

I wish some lawsuit would be possible against the seduction companies, for trying to treat men with emotional problems using false methods and charging a ridiculous amount.

Hopefully one day these gurus will become extremely guilty and ashamed of themselves for what they have done."

veeveevee ive just sat and read through every single one of your posts in this forum and i have to say im impressed that you have attempted to make such a drastic change.

saying that i get the impression that even though youre making all these changes youre still not getting where you wana be and its demoralising you . like i said this is just my impression and it might all be wrong.

you need to understand that there is no one answer , no one line , no one routine that will make you successfull with women.

sure there are lines, routines and advice out there that will help you and after you implement them youre success will rise drastically but to be honest i feel it all comes down to inner game.

in your most recent post you mentioned the 3 levels : outer level , middle level and then inner level propesed by " dr burns ". i have no idea who this person is but i agree and disagree with them and in some ways you.

from my own experience most pua's are not emotionally damaged, looking to get back at women and trying to validate them selves through them.

if these are a persons reasons to get into pick up then they are not a pua.

anyway my advice to you is too take some time and read up on inner game by david deangelo and also when you go out just have a good time. build up a social cricle with your friends and meet new people. youll come across as interesting and fun and people will begin to open to you.

once this happens then you can start to run game.

anyway keep the posts coming mate and keep your head high

_________________
Seize the day

just like smooth did, i just sat here and read all of your posts.

i must give you credit for actually doing what many men dont, which is approach women.

in my opinion, you're thinking about this the wrong way. YOU are the prize, not the woman, so when you approach, if you have that kind of confidence, its reeks off your body. what i tell all my friends who have trouble getting women is that Confidence is more than 80% of approaching women. if you arent confident, if you show that you arent confident through body language, bad things will happen, you will be shot down by a lot of women. one rule ive learned to live by, is "this is my world, if i choose a woman, she is lucky to live in my world."

Thank you so much veeveevee. I can't explain how much I learnt from you. Best of luck to you.

A PUA friend told me "Go approach these girls at the bar".
Me "You recommend that I approach them? Thanks, I will think about it."
PUA: "You need to go and warm up. Come on."
Me: "How do you know what I need to warm up? I will approach them if I want, but right now I don't feel like it. Worry about yourself, and I will ask you for help if I need"

Don't push your friends to approach. Don't feed your ego through others. I've pushed shy guys to approach when they were scared to, wanted to teach guys how to approach women (even though I don't know how myself! What a delusion.), fantasized about being a dating coach, being popular with women. It's all to feeding your self esteem through others. Worry about yourself. Ever catch yourself thinking, if I.... people would like and respect me and I'd feel great. Well you won't. If you are not feeling perfectly happy right now where you are, you will still feel lousy if that fantasy comes true. That longing to feel better through impressing others drives minimum wage guys to take out loans on BMWs, buy expensive lunches for first dates who don't appreciate them, and fantasize about becoming PUAs. Think of a time when people were impressed with you and you did not feel better regardless of what they thought. Don't try to make yourself feel more dominant and powerful by teaching others how to attract women or pushing your PUA friends to approach. Ask them to point to who you should approach for a change. I never seen any PUA do that. Oh no, it's too vulnerable for them. You feel more secure when you teach others and push them to improve. So when you have an earge to give someone a push, ask them to give you a push instead. When you have an urge to teach someone, tell them something you would like to learn. Like say - dancing. How many PUAs are afraid of dancing!

And how many desperate guys pay $10-20/hr to take group dancing lessons. My friend took ballroom dancing lessons for three years ($4000), did yoga in the mornings on a video tape (free). Now he still does not know how to move to music even at family birthday parties, after all that instruction and practice. He says, group dancing lessons, are not conductive to learning. I tried a hip hop class myself for $10, and did not learn any physical moves (but the psychological practice of moving to music in a group was good for me.) Guys will take salsa lessons, but there should be a better way. After all, we are not studying to have perfect technique to win a ballroom dancing competition, we want to learn a few moves and practice moving on our own or with a partner to jazz, rock, hip hop, whatever happens to be played. My solution would be to download some Zumba and Dance for Pick Up videos from the Internet and Basic Dancing DVDs at the library and do that for a couple of months at home. I never tried this, but then you could use that at the bar (if you are still chasing bar girls, I hope you are not! ), but that could be a day two. Tell a girl you've been learning to dance at home and now you are going to take a class alone, and if she wants to come by, you'd love to see her. And just giver her the time and address where you are going to take the dancing lesson and don't exchange numbers. That probably won't work, it somehow feels too desperate. But anyway, the guy who did yoga at home for free and spent $4000 on ballroom dancing, well now, he still can't dance at a party and does not have a dancing partner. So all that money on dancing was not a good investment. But the free yoga at home was! He started doing martial arts, and even though he is middle aged, he is more flexible than the twenty year olds there.

I logged in today to see if I got more comments on this thread. And I was happy to see there was one more. I was looking for attention online. There's plenty of lonely people like me mostly in forums and dating sites, sitting down at the computer hoping to make themselves feel better when someone "Likes" their status update on Facebook, if that 50th woman you messaged on a dating site replied, who viewed your dating profile, who answered or quoted you post at the forum. What I am doing right now (hoping that people will like and appreciate my thread) is called People Pleasing Behavior. If nobody noticed my thread, I'd feel bad. If people think it's great and post comments, I am happy. There's a post about in on the No More Mr Nice Guy Forum. Apparently that's what nice/desperate/low self esteem guys do - try to please others and worry what other's think about them, even online. Here's the post:
I found old classmates and a teacher I was very close to on Facebook. Success. I tried asking girls out over facebook. Fail. I tried befriending classmates in college over facebook chat and sending messages back and forth. Fail. I tried compensating for the uncool lifestyle I seem to have had in college compared to other kids who have a 1000 party pictures uploaded and as many facebook friends, and it's not worth effort. Facebook is good for finding people and organizing events. So I'm not going to log in to look at other people's photos, read other people's updates, their work/school/relationship info, or post updates of my own. I'm going to log in to follow up on the birthday party my friend is organizing, but that's it. Even as I am writing I am thinking, "Anyone who reads this will think I am a lonely socially isolated person. I better mention that I am invited to a birthday party by a friend via facebook to make myself look better."

Another good post on that Nice Guy thread:
It's also unnecessary self torture to stare at pictures of people having fun when you are on your computer, alone. That's only going to make you feel worse. Turn the computer off, or take a 30 minute break, go on Google Video and search for "Basic Yoga." Now that will instantly make you feel better.

Why look for attention and appreciation on the forums, when you can pay attention and appreciate yourself. Cook a meal for yourself. Clean your room. Set a nice white table cloth and have a traditional English Solitary Tea. If you are still in college, why not look at an essay that has already been graded, and rewrite it and give yourself a grade. Why not read an interesting book. Why not do some basic yoga to stretch and feel better, so that in a couple of years you too are flexible enough to learn martial arts, dancing, or parkour. If you don't have any hobbies, but you like movies, read some movie reviews and take notes on movies you want to rent. It's all easier said than done. Many of us including myself fall into a depression and procrastination and find ourselves spending hours in a trance at the computer. But one way to slowly get out of that is to keep a list of things you have done during the day. It might realistically take you a couple of months to start keeping this list regularly, but for now just do this once. Write a list of things you did today. Here is my list:

Wrote a forum thread post
Listened to This American Life podcast
Washed/Dried a bag of laundry
Finished a fiction book
Brushed my teeth
Checked my email
Emailed a craigslist seller back about a $25 framed picture

I used to keep TO DO lists, but writing down what I have actually done, even little things, is the only thing that ever helped me break out of procrastination. That's all in the Feeling Good book by Dr. Burns.

I've been on different forums for years, and if I reply to posts, people fade away. Whereas, if I ignore what others have posted, the posts keep coming. I theorize that when you see that the Original Poster does not reply to people, it makes you hungrier for attention. I imagine that's how women think of guys. The whole ignoring your target concept. But fake ignoring a target is like faking confidence. I've been reread The Game by Neil Strauss, wondering which parts are exaggerated, and which are true to what I have seen during my brief stint in the PUA community. There's parts in it about how a virgin had sex with an asian girl he picked up and was disappointed how it was not pleasurable like he imagined and even hurt. About how guys who have been marginalized in middle school and high school, now were trying to act more alpha male and ended up acting to their PUA friends like their former school bullies.

I am not an alpha male, and I more of a feminine, mild tempered, guy. I can try to hide it by putting up a facade - joining the army, taking up MMA, getting into fights, getting tattooed, getting a motorcycle, drinking like a man. In fact, the guys in the army who advance through the ranks, are in touch with their feelings because that is how they understand others and can lead. But I am trying to embrace my non-alpha male qualities, and I am hoping that might make me more masculine. Think of the rock stars from the eighties - they grew out long hair, like women, didn't they? If you embrace your non-alpha qualities it's better than if you try to be fake alpha. You won't be happy unless you find self acceptance, and women will see through you anyway. I don't like action movies. I could try to hide it, but that would make me less attractive. Or I could be open and ok about it, and talk about how I like independent films.

Ok, so women like alpha males? So we all start pumping ourselves up and faking confidence? Hmm.. There's an interview with a founding father of Pick Up in The Game.


What is the existential despair?
We're social beings, so we all struggle
with a sense of inadequacy. But when we realize that we're not as inadequate
as we thought we are, and when we see that everybody else also thinks they're inadequate,
then that pain goes away and the idea that we're not a person of value disappears somewhat.

So feeling inadequate just means you are human, it might never go away, and if you are open about it with
the right people (not everyone), then it's a way for you to connect with that person. Just like you can easily connect
with another person (again not anyone) over depression, grief, or any other negative feeling. That's why the PUA community
can be theraputic because you can find other guys who feel inadequate, or who also feel fear, anxiety, rejection when they
approach women or go on dates or hurt after their girl friend broke up with them (which is how many get into pick up in
the first place.)

And what about people who don't solve their feelings of inadequacy?
They become obsessed with having sex with more and more women. And
that's a problem.[Because unless you very secure about yourself, you will feel bad when that woman ignores your calls
or sleeps with other guys]

It's OK to say NO to woman. Men complain that they feel used after having sex with an aggressive woman. And women won't take NO for an answer. Even if the guys does not feel comfortable with sex, they will keep pushing for it. It's OK to say NO. You can be out on a first date and kiss the woman's neck and hug her and touch hands, but say you won't kiss her. She might says, "well then you can't touch my boobs unless you go through the stages." You might be at a girl's place and make out and just sleep together with her but say you won't have penetration sex. The girl might keep trying and then give up on you after you reject her several times. She might not call you back for a second date, but then she probably would not have a relationship with you anyway. You can't worry about what she thinks of you if you say NO to sex or kissing or whatever. If you give in, you will be taken advantage of and feel guilty afterward. If you say NO, you will discover that many women will be OK with it and your relationship with them won't be affected. It will probably make things easier for them, because if they have sex with you and you did not want to have sex, they will feel confused. Whereas if you are clear and assertive about your feelings, you might feel less worry and more pleasure! Now the opposite, telling the woman you want to have sex with her, that's much harder. You can start by telling a woman you feel attracted to, just that. But without any implications. Not a stranger, but if you have a female friend, it does not matter whether she is single or not, if you feel attracted to her, you can mention it and see how she feels about you saying it. She might have multiple feelings at the same time, she might feel awkward, happy, uneasy, threatened, guilty, etc.

I was at a bar invaded by guys doing PUA. They were early twenties and some in their forties. A few two sets and a closed circle of girls on their night out. Now I watched these women get hit on by different guys. Initially, the women are surprised and entertained by the guy, and they are nice/polite back (unless he gets blow out right away), but then they wait for the guy to leave. Some women bite, and end up talking to the guy for an hour and look at him like they want to have sex with him. But to me, the guys' insecurities were clear as day, and the harder they tried, the more desperate they looked. I was happy that I was not doing that anymore. I thought about approaching, but my approach anxiety kicked in, this time I worried that I'd be acting like a desperate guy if I approached. That "Must Please" mentality is still there. But approaching women at bars.. I don't know. People go to bars to look for fun, not because they are happy and want to share that happiness with others. I might still go to bars and approach women to experiment, but I still have the desperate hope to be liked by bar girls. To approach women because I have an interesting personality and am curious about other people and want to have and want to share my happiness with others..

To sum things up, right now I am still learning to cook at home and not eat out, keep the apartment clean, set a nice table for myself when I eat, read books, stop procrastinating with studying, bills, finishing decorating my walls, still need to get a desk for my electronics hobby and tools, set up a dental and a medical appointment, start writing down how much I spend (so I can be more responsible financially), make a budget for the next month. Mainly, I am struggling with cleaning and cooking and organizing and not procrastinating. And exercise, I want to do yoga and Zumba at home. It's the CBT trio where you change your Thoughts, Feeling, and Behavior, and all three together create a cycle of positive change in your life, and it's the behavior part that I need to put more effort in.

Ego Strength
Most guys don't have enough ego strength to go to strip club alone, that's why they go with friends, for security. Well, there's other reasons too, I'm exaggerating to make a point. Most people don't have the ego strength to go to a bar and sit or even better stand alone. But I have a shitload of ego strength not only can I go and stand at a bar alone, but I can also decide that I am going to be a freerider and not buy anything. The waitress might keep coming up to me and asking me if I want anything, and the bouncer might politely ask if I am feeling ok. Once I went into a bar and was like "Shit, what do I do? I need a beer." Once I had it in my hand, I was relieved that the spotlight was off me and I blend in. While going to a bar or night club and standing alone and not drinking is weird, I think it's a good think to practice to get over the psychological mental distortions and worries. Don't do it all the time (although why not?), do it a couple of times and pay attention to the thoughts and feelings that go through your head. Sometimes I go out, and get a beer, but I think that's not a good habit to feed. So I'm going to get one beer and just nurse it over like an hour or two and then leave.

Ever since I got into pick up a couple of months ago, and even after I kind of quit pick up, I have not gotten any results with women yet. I did group therapy with a very talented old therapist and now I can talk to people more assertively and am much more open about my feelings (when I want to be). Looking back, the experiences with women I've had before getting into pick up were accidental when I was out at a theater show, concert, party, bar, etc. So my goal will be to just talk to more women without trying to attract them or worry about winning them, and to be out more in public. So I am trying to have it both ways - to both be happier when I am alone, and to be out more and talk to more women.

Dr. Burns recommends planning out potentially productive and pleasurable activities hour by hour so that you don't have a free moment to sit and feel miserable and sorry for yourself. So let me try to put this in action.

0730am - shower
0800 - have breakfast at a coffee shop
0900 - have breakfast at a coffee shop, buy a used book to read for fun
1000 - vacuum, organize clothes
1100am - wash dishes, make soup
1200 - call setup appointments
1pm - have lunch, cook food at home, work in basement
2pm - call parents and family
3pm - read book
4pm - set up elaborate dinner
5pm - clean refrigerator
6pm - give myself a hair cut, go grocery shopping for the next two days (don't overshop)
7pm - set up a hobby work station
8pm - do basic yoga at home
9pm - go to sleep early

I'm going to write this in Dr. Burns's Pleasure Predicting Log. I've also started a list of things I like about myself.

So Step 1 in Dr. Burns's book to overcome the psychology of loneliness is to be happy when you are alone and treat yourself like a good room mate and partner. Step 2 is to approach people.

PUAs skip step one, and go right to step 2. Dr. Burns's says it's really important to learn to be happy as a clam when you are alone, before you are ready to build relationships with others, otherwise he says you will simply defeat yourself.

Bro.. sounds like you need to read some more self help books or some shit.. existential despair doesn't really enter into PUA so much usually.

Also try being less technical this is not a manual for repairing a car or a recipe for cooking lasagne it's a series of guidelines with which you build off.

Buzzed off my hair. If you are going bald, it's a good opportunity to save some money on hair cuts.

Learned Optimism by Martin Seligman a good post-CBT book. It's got tests to see how much optimistic/pessimistic you are. The pessimistic thought patterns, I recognize from stuff people in the pua community said. I surmise that the guys who are popular with women would score on the optimistic side on these tests.

I went to a free for all dance how you want dance night with a bunch of 50/60+ year old hippies. It helped me loosen up on the dance floor. First I was self conscious, felt like I would stand out and people would notice that my moves are awkward. I sat on the side for an hour, then danced. It felt great and very natural.

Danced by myself in a crowd at a band playing at a bar. It's got a 50/50 ratio on these nights. A girl who was already hooking up with some guy, came in front of me and looked into my face and danced with me. But when she saw I would not make any hand contact with her, she bailed out after a minute or two. Not sure why. My dancing did not change when we danced together. I'm not supposed to think that it was me that cause her to bail out. I'm supposed to think - bar girls are so flakey. Maybe it was the music. Blaming defeats on others and finding temporary reasons for them is optimistic.

A woman at work wanted to meet up with me and her friend at a bar, but then did not email me back.

Talked to a former pua buddy, and he said he was at a bar sarging with someone experienced, and that guy started getting drunk, and he looked around, saw little groups of guys standing, not talking, looking around, like they were there looking for something (women) and weren't having fun on their own, and thought, "What am I doing here?" He talked to some older pua guys and they told him you know when we first started this, we were finding that pua techniques like the stuff you read in mystery method and other pua lit just was not working, and that when they made up things to say naturally on the fly, they got much better responses from women. They started looking at their own lives and getting their lives in order.

I'm surprised that PUA lit focuses creating attraction and not on becoming more optimistic, happier, higher self esteem, less depressed, more productive, more interesting, healthier, etc.

I've been talking to friends who read PUA lit, always wanted, but never tried it. They say they are glad I tried it, so I can tell them about it and so they don't have to take the risks. I think approaching taught me what not to do and showed me why. How hitting on women looks unattractive because it looks desperate. Also, there is a distinction between the sexual and the emotional. If you got the emotional nailed, then you can confidently have all the sexual fun you want. Otherwise, the emotional will keep getting in the way.

I tried playing piano from notes for the first time and enjoyed it. I was better than I expected.

Also, I am getting in touch with my feminine qualities like cooking, cleaning, decorating. It might make me more manly.

Lastly, most of us were at some point bullied in school, and I know many people who still feel bad about not fighting back against their middle school bullies. You cannot go back in time and change that physically, but I wonder how one can change that emotionally. Like fight back emotionally many years later.

Also, I wonder if you can write a list of your strengths and things you like about yourself, and then play these for the most attraction value. That might be a good way of raising self esteem.

I think to change inner game, you have to do the written CBT exercises on a weekly basis.

A loose quote from Intimate Connections by Dr Burns: "One of his lonely patients visited singles bars and chased women nightly, because he believed that he can't be happy unless he has a relationship with a female. This approach wasn't very successful because women sensed how needy and desperate he was, and they gave him the brush-off and avoided him. I [Dr. Burns] tried to persuade him to give up his desperate woman chasing and use the Pleasure Predicting Scale to see if he can learn to happy doing things on his own...A disadvantage of believing that you need a woman is that 1) you will be putting your self esteem in the hands of others. Women will be able to manipulate you because you will be so afraid of being rejected. 2) You may drive women away because you will be so needy and dependent. They will realize you do not have any real self respect... For him the strongest realization was that he was so afraid of rejection that women could easily manipulate him. He had given his former wife lots of financial concessions, and often got expensive gifts for women he went on dates with. Instead of appreciating his generosity, they just got more and more demanding. Eventually he would end up getting rejected anyway. He decided to think about a loving relationship with a woman as an important personal goal but not as a need as oxygen is. He gave up his bar hopping and started playing volleyball and fishing which were far more rewarding than carousing in singles bars"...The attitude that you want to "get" a woman is counter productive because women want to be loved and not for someone to think of them as a prize to be won in a competition.

agreed. Your feeling more than just nervous!

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aiden k. baker