Hey all, just back from a bit of a hiatus. Liking the new look

It's been about 3 months since I've logged into mpua forum and the time away has done more for my game than any book or post ever has. Not knocking the forum or anything it's more to do with my time away from THINKING about pick-up. I'm gonna try and write a post on it sometime soon in the hope that it'll help a few other people too

This post might be a bit controversial with a few people so feel free to disagree with everything I say. Essentially this post is about a number of very prominent and popular concepts in the community that (in the 3 months or so since I was here) I've become disillusioned with and, looking back, I feel did a lot of damage to my game for a very long time. There's nothing really new here. Most of it has been written about by other 'gurus' already so this is as much to organise my own thoughts as anything else. Anyways, here they are:


DHV Stories:

I used to use and spend heaps of time reading about and writing DHV stories, trying to subtly demonstrate pre-selection, leadership of men etc. Here's the conclusions I came to: No matter how well written or delivered, it always seems like you're trying to impress the girl. Even if this wasn't true, it creates the frame (for you) that you need to impress her. This actually stretches beyond DHV stories to the entire idea of the A2 phase. The idea that you have to do all this hard work to make the girl believe certain things about you in order to be attracted to you. So scrap all of your 'DHV' material now, all it does is give you a mindset that she has more 'value' than you and that you have to impress her in order to win her over. Absolutely no single human being has more objective value than another, only conceptual value. And even if you do deliver your stories perfectly, your subcommunication will say that you conceive her to have more value than you.


Opinion Openers:

I wrote a whole post about this a few months back but I still feel the same. My main problems with them: Too long to deliver in almost all situations, Transition from them always seems contrived, opener itself always seems contrived, the pick-up arts have already become fairly well known to the general public and because of this the whole idea of opinion openers (not just specific ones) is known to quite a lot of women.


The entire concept of the Alpha-Male:

Instantly gives you a mindset of trying to compete with other guys to be the guy-of-highest-status in any given situation. It makes you paranoid and anxious around other guys. Even if you manage to hone your body language and actions and so on, you'll still always be overly concerned with competition from other guys. Plus you'll become an asshole, end of. You'll become the kind of guy who starts to believe he 'deserves' women over his friends rather than just deserves them because he's a cool guy.


Indirect gaming:

By indirect I mean game where guys try not to act sexual in any way until they believe the girl is already attracted in them (a la MM). As far as I'm concerned, she's not going to become attracted in you in the way you want her to if you don't have sexual state, use sexual tension etc. (I would suggest that everyone read Chief's stickied post in the mid-game section to get a better understanding of sexual attraction.) From the offset you should have a sexual state and your game should be subtly sexual throughout (at least to the point where you can become more obvious about it). Even prior to opening you should work on using your body language for this, read Cajun's articles on the subject and look into Gunwitch method for maintaining a constant sexual state around women.


Mystery Method:

This one might be a bit controversial to some but you could probably see it coming from most of what Ive written above. Mystery Method is the dominant method in the pick-up arts because it was one of the first and because it featured so heavily in 'The Game'. In my opinion, about 15% of it is good, the rest just gives bad mindsets and beliefs.


The Game by Neil Strauss:

Probably most peoples introduction to the community. For any newcomers reading this, the book is extremely biased in favour of Mystery and against people like Tyler Durden and Ross Jefferies. Take everything in there with a pinch of salt.

Hello. Interesting post.

I believe that most of what you learn isn't vital, and you can succeed by applying less than 5% if it.


But I'm a big fan of canned material. I agree that opinion openers are bad to open with, but I like to use them as routines as I advance further into the conversation. I think canned material is quite important and i think even advanced mPUAs use it even though they deny it. I think they're simply drawing on what they've succeeded with in the past and reapplying it in new situation. They've become so skilled and fluent at it, that it doesn't seem canned at all, but it is. I don't like the growing hatred to canned material, because I think it can be vital to generating conversation.

I agree with what you say about DHV stories being needy, but I think demonstrating value in short offhand comments to be effective.. For example:

"When I use to live in Holland, I discovered they had a very strange way of shaking hands. Let me show you."
or
"I found this nice pub in Scotland when I was traveling through there. i wish we were there right now. Have you ever been abroad?"

Etc..

I know what you mean there are entire areas of pickup I avoid, like DHV stories why try to prove you are of higher value. I see it like hard people the people that tell you they are tough are usually less tough than people that don't say anything. Meh if you have to try and prove you are of higher value you aren't.

Also negs, I know they have their place but for anyone that doesn't live in miami etc they are pretty much pointless. They are meant for high horse girls, I haven't ever met a girl that needs to be taken down a peg, most women are self-conscious little girls underneath it all so again mostly a waste of time.

I also don't like the whole approach for approaches sake thing seems weird and like practicing kung-fu on a footballer (weird analogy I know what I mean).

I think it is all about pruning the pua bush the way that makes sense for you, some people probably aren't high value so may need stories, others feel the need to use negs to bring her value down etc etc

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I have much more theory than practice under my belt, so my opinions must be taken with a grain of salt. I'd like to rebut or expound on some of the things you've said, though.

DHV Stories: I agree with you that people probably take these too far. On the other hand, you have to talk about something. Some folks aren't natural conversationalists. If your alternatives are remaining silent or, heaven forbid, saying something truly low value (I've done it), having some DHV stories to use as filler is, by far, the best option. Obviously, natural conversation trumps all, but canned stories are a good tool for inexperienced conversationalists.

Opinion Openers: I think that I agree with you here. Even more than DHV stories, these are the opposite of spontaneous, natural conversation. Unless you have the bravado to point at a girl and say, "You. Settle a bet for me and my friend here," you probably are going to be off to an awkward start. (If you have that kind of bravado, why are you using an opinion opener?)

Alpha Male: I mostly agree with you here. The whole alpha male concept needs revision anyway, IMO. Obviously, the chief wasn't the ONLY male who got to mate and we're far enough from our caveman ancestry that we can introduce some nuance into this concept. For example, to put it into tribal terms, I am a shaman, not a chief. You fear and respect the chief, but you trust and admire the shaman. There are advantages to all of these traits. Men should capitalize on their natural strengths.

Mystery Method: Even if the details of the method are outdated, the theory is sound. Let's be honest, a lot of the men trying to use pickup are or were geeks. I know I am. I like having a solid theoretical foundation. Mystery's science is better than the Mythbusters' and his conclusions are reasonable social psychology. I personally have no intention of following MM to the letter, but it's nice to have a roadmap to how and why attraction works.

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Some vices miss what is right because they are deficient, others because they are excessive, in feelings or in actions, while virtue finds and chooses the mean.
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1. DHV's, personnally I wouldn't reject them, but I can see where you come from, in a cold approach I don't really bother with long as stories, if I am going to forcefully build attraction, I'll drop things here and their to dhv

2. Opinion openers work fine.... transtitions on just about anything seems contrived unless it's direct, but I've detailed my thoughts in my "creepy-charming problem" thread. To assume she will leave becuase your transition looks contrived is assuming she doesn't want to talk to you.

3. The alpha male is often mis-represented. You have just done so

Seriously, some over-competitive jackasss, chin held high, back straight, who needs to be top dog.

Not my definition of alpha, it is unfortunatly for a lot of people.

4. Pfft you can be indirect and be sexual that's essentially my style, admittedly if the opportunity arrises I will jump to direct. It's just no one does that, becuase most indirect people are MM practitioners, and the majority of them have a fear of being direct

I think you've got the dea of indirect wrong, Indirect is just game, without being overtly sexual.

5. agreed, tho I'd bump it to 25-30%. But I was unaware that it was the most dominant, I suppose your right, it's the most commercial, I dunno if it's the most dominant WITHIN the community.

6. AGREED LIKE FUCK KNOWS. (Y)

Most of your post I agree with, it just in certain area's it seems a bit overly re-actionary.

DHV: Ever take a course in creative writing? Of a classroom of 20, how many of those kids have any talent? 1? 0? How many can actually write? Then of those who can write, how many of those have the talentsto bring the story to life?

So yeah, I think most suck at it. . . If you suck at it, don't do it. There's no reason to show off your suckiness.

Opinion: Only to test her wittiness during the conversation.

Alpha: Again . . . another case of "doing it wrong". So many guys type up crap here about "Yo mama jokes" and how they "make fun of the other guy". This is clearly not alpha. The leader of the pride sleeps all day long knowing he's a rock star. And when a clowning buffoon challenges, it's just one clean swipe of the paw. DONE.

Indirect: There's definitely room in our game for the "indirect" route. Based on situation and the personality of the girl, sometimes there's just no reason to attempt to get her hot and bothered in a coffee shop or at a park RIGHT away after "hello".

Mystery/Neil/Ronald McDonald: What do they have to do with any of this? They're not going to approach a girl for you. Stop reading and start doing. Approach and chat up 100 girls and most guys will figure out a thing or two on their own.

I think that actually you're missing the most important point in running game.
Indirect, direct; MM or C/F or a good blend of all it doesn't matter. The models and giudebooks are just that; they're not to be followed to the letter. They're there to get you to the point where its internalised and you become a pick-up artist without having to think. You can still come up with a few pieces of material and use them; I do. But I don't think when I interact anymore; the DHV's come out in what I say or how I act without me thinking about it; sometimes in a story, sometimes not.

My conversations are full of sexual innuendoes, because that's who I've been for a long, long time; even before game.

If something doesn't work for you then don't do it, and it won't become a part of who you are; simple.

Having said that, I do occaisionally use canned material that I have come up with myself from part of a conversation I've had and, in a few cases, I will intentionally DHV. But mid-conversation is not the point to be thinking "Is this going right? Do I need to neg, DHV, what?"

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