Who said they were opposing concepts?

I'd love to see more women out there approaching men and they'd love to be able to approach men with confidence and without feeling like they were breaking societal customs. This completely the same as a guy that wants to approach that gorgeous women across the room, but doesn't think he's good enough (societal customs) and doesn't have the confidence to do it.

Just because you can classify her intentions under the umbrella of women's rights and feminism, doesn't mean they contradict the concept of learning how to pick up the opposite sex. Seems to me like women learning pickup falls under the umbrella of women's rights just fine and I'm pretty cool with that, as I'm a feminist myself.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

I never meant it as if they where opposing concepts, but more that its more socially acceptable for the girl to make the first move let alone be more aggressive in what she wants. PUA in my eyes doesn't really do this for girls as you even mention most girls have most of the PUA stuff built into them.
I totally agree. I even tell girls to approach guys when ever I can.
I am not classifying her intentions under the umbrella of woman rights and feminism, but as I said at the start of this post that because of those two things its become a lot more socially acceptable for a girl to approach a guy. As far as where girls learning pick up I think that part of it is that they are born with it. And the rest they learn as they grow up. The reason I say this is girls by nature are social and a lot of PUAing is social. And just to make things clear I am not bashing this at all as I think girls should be treated as equally as possible in all areas. I do have a problem with current day feminism where its all about being above men and not equal to them.

I respectfully disagree. Saying that women are naturally born with the social skills and abilities that we work on honing here, is the same as saying that because you're a guy, or I'm a guy, we are equally skilled at playing basketball, football or any other sport. They're all skills and some people do have more of a natural ability - perhaps you've seen a guy that had never played a sport before do ridiculously well - but that doesn't mean everyone does, or even that those naturally skilled ones cannot improve.

There are a lot of people in the community that are already half decent, or even really good with women and they are still here working on becoming better. Hobbit for instance says that he was a natural and had no trouble with women, yet here he is, one of our top posters, striving to learn more and hone his skills further, as well as helping others. I myself was pretty awkward with women, but verged on success fairly often and with a little fine tuning I became skilled.

A lot of women may have learned social skills as they grew up, some of it is also probably genetics, but the same can be said of all the male naturals out there. There are still many women that never learned those skills, that were social rejects just like many of the guys here and so they are now hoping to acquire those skills.

Many more may THINK that they have skills just because they have men interested in them (which is why men assume women have natural skill) but that doesn't neccessarily mean they have skill, only that they are desired. What happens when these women actually like a guy, yet because they are so used to deflecting men all the time, they have no concept of how to actually make an interaction work smoothly and end up coming off as a bitch, or fear being labeled a slut, because they just don't have any clue what actually constitutes a proper interaction between members of the opposite sex that are attracted to each other - this happens ALL THE TIME. They go home and complain to their male orbiter friends about how unfair it is that men don't "get them" and don't know what to do to pass their tests, when in actuality, a large portion of the blame rests squarely on their own shoulders for not knowing that they are playing the game all wrong; they're playing it as if the guy is just another jackass they aren't interested in, yet hoping he will understand her subtle subtle hints that she thinks he's attractive and interesting and actually pass through her 329,568,376 trillion tests that are designed to weed out all the losers.

Many men are here because they just don't "get" women. Well a lot of women THINK they "get" men, but often they don't, it's just their preconceptions, which is something that holds equally as many men back (take a look around the forum and check out the guys explaining how a girl was just being a bitch, or she's a stupid insensitive slut, or any number of character flaws, when in reality they just don't understand what happened). These women fall into the trap of thinking men don't have emotions, they don't care about them, they only think about sports and sex and have no interest in a romantic candle lit dinner, a walk in the park or cuddling. These women ask me questions like, "Well we were making out and he said he wanted more, but we didn't go any further...why not? What is he looking for: sex or a relationship?" I explain to them what may have caused him not to push any further and they suddenly realise that they probably greatly misjudged the situation.

It would be nice for us as guys to be able to think that women have it easy and that they can just walk out the front door and snag Mr. Right. Unfortunately most women don't know what to look for in a man, what they want in a man, how to tell if what they want is what a man really is, how to demonstrate that they are actually interested in that man and have him realise that, rather than hoping he'll decipher the hidden code. Any woman can get a man, but that doesn't mean he's gonna be a GOOD man; that's where I come in.

We've gotten a little off-topic, but I'm sure Bonita is all tingly after reading what women really think spelled out by a man.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

This is where you have to establish yourself as the "dominant female" in the group. You have to be the leader. In your situation you should have led your group to your desired table BEFORE they chose the one in the corner. Take the initiative more when deciding bars/clubs. Its hard as a female to leave your group so thats why you need to establish yourself as the more dominant female.

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"To Give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift" -Prefontaine

Not a PUA just a girl offering my opinions/advice

I have a different 'friend' situation going on right now..
I'm good friends with a couple HB4-6's.... not very attractive at all. But I have known them for a long time, etc.
This is a problem as they are in several of my classes - so It's much harder to have girls approach me or for me to "betray" my old friends by meeting/talking/sitting-next-to a couple HB8-9's i've been eyeing and talking to here and there.

HB4 always has to be around me or sit next to me!! AHHH!!!

I'm going to try and "betray" them for a bit and do what I want

Next time post your own thread if it is unrelated.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

Wow there has been a lot of action on this topic while I was gone and I have a lot to respond to!

Jurupa, I must agree with Rye Lee. Feminism/women's right movement and psychology are not mutually exclusive for it was the psychological thought of male superiority which created the inequality in the first place. In modern societies today, the large gap is almost gone, but it still exists (women only make 75 cents to every dollar a man makes)!! This inequality and view of women also transfers over to social situations. Though men SAY they would like women to approach them, it still isnt completely accepted by society. There is a small (but significant) percentage of men that have old-fashion values and do not believe women should approach them. And women still haven't received this memo! ha

Ok my next point is that Rye Lee had a good point. Yes, women are, in general, more "natural" when it comes to social interaction. However, there are women that are socially dysfunctional. Furthermore, like Rye said, there are women that think they are socially adept because men approach them, but they do not know how to sustain a healthy relationship. I have friends like this: they are very pretty but sometimes they will act either "too good" for the guy or as you all have heard ---are a clinger! "Clingers" are afc-like. There are many other reasons why women aren't naturally perfect in social interaction, but these few prove the point.

Killians...good point about being the dominant female and just picking a table. In this situation they walked in before me and went straight to that table so I could not be the dominant female, but in the future I will do that.

Good points guys...this really developed farther than I imagined

Thank you for answering my question. For some reason the push/pull didn't come to mind when i considered female PUAs. What I really wondered about was the attraction phase. Men are attracted visually, whereas women are attracted to power and protective natures. When men DHV they try to show these attributes. I just wondered how a female DHVed, or are you guys exempt from DHVing just by keeping up your physical appearance?

Push-pull works for both men and women because any time someone gives you a reward and then takes it away...they chase it. It's like holding a $20 right out of your reach...you keep trying anyway.

I believe me do have it easier when it comes to apperance (on of the few things they get a break on). What I mean is it is much easier for a less attractive guy to date a very attractive women. However, it is more uncommon for a very attractive guy to date a less attractive woman. I believe it is because men are initially attracted visually (like you said) where as women, while attracted by physical appearance, consider personality and other factors a little more in the initail meeting. Guys obviously consider the same factors, but may choose not to approach a girl if she is not attractive enough and thus never know they are cool. This is largely in part to social norms...men choose who they approach and keep the ones that spark his interest. Men have more security knowing that they could approach a more attractive person tomorrow but women don't have that security. Since women are not "suppose" to approach men, they have to settle bc they can't rely on someone approaching then in the future (that is worded in a more extreme sense).

I forget where I was going with that point but I do want to say that women still have to DHV. They can rely on their looks to hook the guy initially...and if all they want is a physical relationship I am sure that many guys are more than willing to oblige. But if a woman has the intention of dating, she must show that she is of high value too. Every women DHV's differently based on what is important to them and what they think is important to you. So if wealth is important to a girl and she thinks it is to you...she will talk about all her shoes etc...

For me, I value being more down-to-earth and someone who you can just chill with. So when I talk to guys I bring up how I love to watch sports and play tennis etc... But DHV is usually calibrated (unconsciously) for women.

Remember B, for guys it's not about looks. A good looking guy like myself (I'm flexing my pecs as I write this you know ) would have a tough time picking up certain types of girls without the proper attitude about women and life in general. For men, after the first 30 seconds of meeting a girl---when initial impressions are formed based on looks, clothing, and body language---everything goes back to inner game.

I often see "good looking" men dating average looking women, and one of the reasons behind this is that their inner game holds them back from pursuing the "good looking" women they want.

Of course I am not saying guys only go for looks---personally I've recently come to appreciate the importance of being comfortable and emotionally connected to a woman more than her looks---but generally speaking good looking women are approached a lot more than the average looking...and the super hot women. Given time, comfort and emotional connection can translate into attraction for both men and women. Sometimes it only happens to the girl, sometimes the guy, but when it happens to both then looks matter very little in the end.

I'll catch you later and we can chat about male gigolos and women over 30.

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That's true, I guess us men are suckers for mirroring and other similar techniques. I have read about female PUAs in the Art of Seduction, but that was different than the PU techniques on this forum. I was really just wondering if women used Mystery's or Style's canned routines and stuff, or if they made PU unique to their own feminine style. I assumed you had to adapt it in someway. It’s really kind of interesting to see how women have internalized pickup.

Oh my dear Roads...

Good points, but you realize that you agreed with me when you thought you were disagreeing?! haha I agreed, men do consider personality and other factors, but it is a woman's physical attractive that usually leads them to approach a woman. I have observed that it is easier for a less attractive man to get a more attractive female because if he has strong inner game, that attracts women. Men hope that the most attractive woman in the bar is also the coolest, so if she is, that is a win-win situation. Now we know that isn't always true, but guys take a chance on the more attractive girl in hopes that is is true...and the less attractive girl has to wait for the more attractive girl to screw it up so that she can show why she is amazing.

Now because stupid society tells women that if they approach guys they either appear as sluts or needy...many tend not to do it. Due to this, they have to settle for who approaches them...and as described earlier...more attractive men will tend to seek out others like them (attractive) and hope she is cool too...thus taking us back to square one...the less attractive women have to either wait for the attractive guys to get over the attractive (potential bimbo) and then approach them....or they will settle for guys who werent as confident to approach the more attractive girl bc she is "out of his league."

Mirroring really works well on anyone. It is a sign of comfort and that you agree with them. As for all women...I cannot speak about their methods, but I do not perscribe to any particular method. I basically act the same way I did before I learned PU but now I just know the terminology and I am more conscious of my actions. It isn't a formula, but I am more in tune with my thoughts and behavior which strengthens my inner game. I don't like pre-packaged lines..I hate routines like the cube etc... first off they would never work on a guy, but secondly bc i don't think i would like it done to me. Like I said, negs don't work on guys. Girls try so hard to send subtle IOI's to guys and a neg would be counterproductive. How can guys get the neg but not the IOI's?? haha I am more situational, just sincere, and natural. I like push-pull because it is fun and guys respond well to it and kino is the golden rule of PU for women. I would say AA would be a problem for many women, luckily I don't have that really...but there is plenty of stuff that transfers over--women just have to find what works for their style.

That was my original point. Some parts of PU are universal, but some are gender specific. Just as the mindsets of men and women are drastically different, so to must be their game. Like how negs and routines don't work on men because we have sesitive egos and are not emotional drawn by routines.

Rye Lee - I never thought of it the way you put it. But from reading your post I do certainly agree with a lot of it. On the part where I was saying that girls where born with some of the skills I was more referring to how girls are born with different traits that are more unique to their sex.