If you guys used natural game you wouldnt have that problem, make the transition.
Ive seen routine based game vs. Natural based game and I gota say , the natural always wins in my experience.

Nothing wrong with routines but look at the pros and cons.
You gota learn routines, recite them, hope theyll stick, and if sumthin diffrent happens and you dont got a line, what then? She'll see your choad side and you'll be exposed hahaha.

As a natural you go out and fuck. The end. (After having made slight adjustments to your lifestyle and actually became a better man)

So which is better on the long run really?
And even in the short run I would say - A more natural style of game.

And this goes internal, which means if you succeed not only will your "game" improve but your whole life will improve.

As opposed to a few lines that in the end wont change the real internal issues, which is the reason most dont get laid anyway.

Stop looking for the quick fix and man up fellas.

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My point is why cant you use both ? lol All you guys are saying natural game is better etc...

Main point is sometimes its much easier to open a 4 set with an opinion opener and conversing with the full group and then being natural and leading the conversation.

Everyone is different i prefer to change it up and use both . I never rule out the a certain style.

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You can fail all your life but still achieve more than those who did not try.

Routines are fine if you actually have a good one. Anytime I see some dude's infield, his routines are shit. I never got into routines, but nearly all of them I've read are worthless. Strawberry Fields/The Cube is about the only one I can say seems interesting. But it's way too mainstream.

The main problem with routines is that it mostly misses the point. It's a logical approach, and the most important part of seduction is energy. Get in sync with her energy, draw her in a sexual direction. Yes, you need to fill the space with words in most cases, but the words are very much secondary. Guys who do routines are in their head. I'd take random things off the top of my head with the right energy over the perfect thing to say with the wrong energy.

Even if you need to study and memorize things, memorizing conversational rules is going to be better than memorizing routines, as it's more dynamic.

_________________
RSDTyler

I think a lot of people forget that for many natural game is a product of experience in "unnatural" game. A lot of guys get into pua because they don't feel natural around women. So to have some sort of structure they can adhere to is useful. And once the guy has been in the field for a long time they will start to recognise every kind of social interaction and can then adapt to it. I doubt at this time guys like mystery even use canned material, coz they've been in the game so long that they can totally wing it. They know what they can and can't get away with. And don't forget mysterys method is largely based on natural human behaviour. Beautiful women naturally go for guys who are liked by other women, who are not needy, who are playful and interesting and are alpha. The mystery method of A1,A2 etc is really just a breakdown of what naturally occurs in a natural interaction for a successful male. It's just a way of organising it logically for men, who need it, to understand.

Yeah.

ROUTINES ARE SUPPOSED TO MAKE YOU GET OUT OF YOUR HEAD. The point of a routine is that you practice it so much that you can say it and not have to worry about the words. So you can focus on her energy. The point of memorizing something is to NOT have to think. Are you in your head when you recite the alphabet? Or playing a chord on a guitar? No. Because you memorize something, practice it to the point that you do it automatically. This argument that routines put you in your head, applies to the first few times.

Look, natural or unnatural, direct or indirect, these are just distinctions made by marketers and businessmen to make whatever they are selling "the best." Do you think Apple is gonna say good things about Samsung phones? Or vice versa? A PUA guru is never gonna say other methods or styles work (his product), just point out the flaws in other methods (competing products). And when they do say another Guru makes sense, it's a business partner. You guys get so wrapped up on this division and marketers words that you miss the truth. Routines are outdated....How, from a low rating show years ago? Routines get you in your head...How, isn't memorization to get you out of your head? Pea cocking is stupid...how, Mystery NEVER said to dress crazy. He said to wear one interesting item like a cool necklace or watch. Negs don't work...well they don't when people make up clear insults then throw everything under the term neg. To quote Mystery, a girls reaction to a neg should be laughter. If it's not you didn't neg. These are bullet points some marketer made on his product page that go regurgitated around with no facts behind it.

Some people work better with routines. Some people don't. To say one is better or than one works more effectively is to dismiss and lose the good points of the other. Even objectively, most people get good at something through practicing the same moves till the point they can freestyle. Going out and practicing is all that matters in the end.

I was an Android guy and decided to try an Iphone. I eventually went back to Android, but I can see what people like about Iphone. It just isn't for me and my needs. There are things I like Iphone for and I wish there was a phone where I could choose features. Everyone's goals are different. Some guys want to go out and fuck. Some guys want to work on holding conversations. Some guys want to bust into a club, approach 10 girls and pull one home. Fine. Some want to go to a lounge, flirt with 20 girls, be the life of the party and set up 4 dates for the week. I'm just sick of arguments pitting the new guy with routines against the cool natural guy to say that natural is the way.

Except nearly everyone delivers a routine in an unnatural way, lacking good energy. They almost always come off as robotic and/or socially odd.
The problem is that routines don't take feedback. You're saying that a routine is fine because it allows you to focus on energy. Ok. Why is it that people who use routines never seem to do well with energy?
Just because I sell bunt cake as a weight loss product, doesn't mean it actually does what it is supposed to do.
This has nothing to do with me. I've never bothered with routines. The reason is because they objectively don't work well. Out of all of the guys who start out sucking and STILL suck years and years later they almost universally use routines. The number of guys who are good and rely heavily on routines are dwarfed by the number who rarely use them. Yet the number of guys who used to suck and don't use routines is a larger group. Why when routine based guys are maybe 1/3 of new people, do they end being 9/10 of the guys with zero success after a year? It's not a matter of using routines until you get better and moving away from them. They actively hinder your development. Routines ARE bad. Especially the way they're normally used.
Practice is the most important part. Doing it without a bunch of routines is the best way. Even if they manage to flame out even harder at first, it will quickly rectify. Routines make learning difficult, because they can't take feedback or flow naturally. Those things are critical to making progress.

It's like comparing herbal medicine to medical science for terminal illness. One is clearly better than the other. Maybe tea leaves do something, but Bayer has mother nature's shit kicked.

_________________
RSDTyler

The people who deliver routines unnaturally, are the people who don't practice it and work on their delivery. Also, how do routines not take feedback? You use a routine, it flops...you change your delivery and try again. No one has ever said to use a routine monotone and keep using it. Routines are based around using them and tweaking the delivery and words to find what works best. As to energy, I'd say all of the routine guys I've met have a good delivery. They don't sound robotic in any way. A good wing of mine (routine guy) in Atlanta would say an amazing story to me and I'd be like wow. Then he'd tell me it was a routine. I'd be dumbfounded because his delivery was that convincible.
I find the opposite. I've been in many cities in the U.S and met alot of guys in pickup. The routines guys are alot more confident and social than non routine guys. Usually the routines guys are the guys with dates and girlfriends while the natural guys get makeouts occasionally, a lay sometimes, but they're always having to go sarge. In my current city for example, a friend of mine (old wing) comes down for the summer and we go out. He's old school: indirect, routine stack, cheat sheet, practices before going out all that. I'm 50/50 and more direct. Almost every night we pulled and saw the "natural" pickup guys in my city leave alone. It's funny because many nights, he or I would pull to my place nearby, fuck and hit the bar again before close. The "natural" guys would come up and be like wow. These are guys who have done thousands of approaches, been to at least one bootcamp (RSD or guy in NY) and admit they may have gotten 1 lay in the past year (after approaching for over 2 years). I'd tell them "why don't you play with a routine or a stack and see if it works" and they'd say "nah, I want to be natural...routines don't work." And I'd roll my eyes and think, well what you're doing hasn't been working. I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods V, but I've met way more of the creepy smiling "natural" guys, than robotic routine guys.

So routines are made for feedback and tweaking. And if they aren't flowing naturally, it's because you're just throwing them together, which no routine based school of game advocates. This is what a routine stack is for.

Man I got a busy life full of awsomness, you think I got time to memorize routines?

Naturals use routines but not that type, we use "process" routine, open girls, stay positive ect. But as far as what to say , it comes naturally, sometimes we use the same line but is more of a natural flow and a choice, we dont depend on a stack and shit.

What city are you living on bro?

Come to miami and go head to head with me.

Ive used routines myself back in the day.
Im now a natural but with "pua" knowledge and female psychology knowledege.
Ive hung with routine users and I blow them out of the water.
Not trying to diss you routine users out there at all, am just saying from my experience of days upon days infield.

Anyway, come to miami, lets go head to head and see who prevails, id love to see other styles.

At the end of the day, the fact that we are all putting the effort forth to get laid is what counts.

But I gota say, Im pretty comfortable with my natural game, with consistant pulls weekly.

But id love to see what kind of results other styles achieve.

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That's how I see most people use it, whenever I see infield videos of forum members posted here. I've also watched infield videos of a few routine based "pua" instructors and it's the same problem. Bravo(Style's instructor) is the only one that seemed like a normal, cool guy in them.

When I've been out, it's been pretty painfully obvious that they're using routines. If someone tries to ask a question or nearly everyone stops listening, they just "plow" and keep going. And then there's the psych games, or props like tarot cards that are a pretty massive giveaway. And the dudes still peacocking seem to always be routine based(and I've yet to see a good peacocking guy).
Where it's absolutely the most frequent though are the dudes coming over to "AMOG" me, with silly faggotry like "Hey! Shouldn't you get back to your girlfriend?" and other famous stuff from books like The Game.
I know there are some really good, routine based guys. And I suppose it could be that when I've met someone running routines really well, that I didn't realize it.
You won't hear me defending RSD bootcamps. I think Speed Seduction is the only thing worse. It could just be that the bad routine based guys are very easy for me to spot, while the crappy "pua" guys not using routines just seem like regular guys.
I've never seen a good routine stack. Do you sit down and write them out, like a story based flow chart or what? I'm being dead serious here, because I really did look into routines a bit a few years ago and everything I looked at seemed inconsistent and strange.

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RSDTyler

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RSDTyler

Agreed. If you are doing it right you'll need to calm them down, not bring them down.

Hmm...tbh I've never really seen infield routine stuff online. A few, but I'd say 50/50 good bad. I tend to see more bad "natural game" stuff though except for a couple or 3 guys. For eg, Sasha's stuff is terrible to look at for me, but he's praised as being some god. Never got that.
Never really came across the guys you mention though so my experience differs. Actually, come to think of it maybe 2 who dressed weirdly at a pickup thing but I know one guy (in a blouse) was an RSD guy and I don't know what the other guy was. The routines guys I know don't peacock, maybe a necklace or a bracelet, they run an opener, a couple routines, negs and teases, isolate with a routine and make out or escalate (but with chill routines). No tarot cards or magic tricks. So more like indirect opener, how do you guys know each other...you make the same facial expressions, blah blah, few teases, introduction, fluff, hey can I borrow your friend, are you a good kisser etc. Simple stuff that isolates in 5 mins.

I think I remember you're from GA right? Never saw peacocked guys in Opera or Midtown. No boa or tophat. The routine guys I see, dress sharp, dress shirts and well fitting clothes. The natural guys seem to dress "natural" ie average stuff.

An indirect guy once told me(paraphrasing): "I don't go indirect because of any bs innergame reason. I go indirect so I can use strategy. If I go into a group of 4, I can go indirect, figure out who is single, who has bad logistics and who is my type and then pick her or use the group for social proof"
I don't, but my friend who does mostly routine stuff does. It's just figuring out what flows into the next part. Most conversations at the bar can be scripted. You open. What do you say next? I'm not against having something solid to say so I play around with it sometimes. The problem is that guys try to make it more complicated and weird. Like if you're a 21 yr old in Nebraska in a college town, talking about magic spells is weird. But you can use something simpler that's funny or interesting. There was a recent post here with an infield of a guy asking girls in college something about nutella being actual shit. Now, that's a bad routine (no offense).

I think it's better to keep it simple. For making a stack, pick an opener you think would work and try it. If it doesn't work consistently, change it, until you find one that does. Then add the next piece. Look for feeback and change it up. Play with the wording and delivery and see the reaction. Like experimenting. As you see what does and what doesn't, you're actually LEARNING how a good conversation looks like. Trial and error. Routine or natural, once you look at the feedback and tweak accordingly you'll figure it out. I just think routines have worth because I've seen more success from the guys that use them. But that's just my experience.

Minneapolis now but moving to Cali. If I come to Miami sometime I'd definitely hit you up. As I said, I use routines sometimes, but go direct and they are simple quick routines.

I'm in GA, now. But I'm basically in Chattanooga. I infrequently go to Atlanta. But most of what I was describing, was back around 2007 or 08, when I lived in California. I was closer to San Diego, but went to LA a lot. There was a lot of Mystery and Style influenced stuff back then(at least in Cali).
I go indirect because I'm rather average looking and like to punch way above my looks weight
I see. So basically, there aren't good routine stacks being offered as products, nor are there even frameworks. They basically require that you sit down and draft a list of items you want to tick off IE, open, get group's interest, find out if girl you like is available, isolate, etc. Then you write out each of these things and memorize your main points. So you're coming up with absolutely everything on your own.

I can respect that, and I can certainly see some uses for it. Especially in very common situations that you encounter over and over again. My view of routines was probably fairly strongly influenced by Sinn, who often talks about his 10 hours of material he scripted and memorized. I was just thinking to myself that it seemed crazy to have to do something like that. But having routines for common instances, and then being able to hold regular conversation when you're not in those common situations(rather than freak out and collapse), seems perfectly reasonable.

Do you go word for word or extemporaneous?

_________________
RSDTyler

So As ive just came back from the weekend and caught up on all this my balls are bigger than your balls stuff its came apparent to me that its all propaganda for PUA's to use to try and get people to use their preferred style.

From the weekend i got 5 number/kiss closes and 3 lays. I dnt peacock and i dnt use crazy routines such as magic tricks etc i use routine openers such as opinions or simple things like the selfie routines girls love that plus it give them a reason to remember you. Also a good one is you wont remember me which i stole off here. Cant remember the guy who posted it. I dress sharp and be precise. I find it much easier to open with an opinion opener in a larger set than just winging in and hoping for the best.

Sometimes though i winged it and jst went with the flow off the top of my head and it worked.
The main points i would like to say are i go to my Local bar and i have massive Value in the place. All my mates work behind the bar the DJ calls my name out as soon as i walk in and every one knows me.
I have girls walk up to me all night who i know from previous ventures and that to me displasy higher value.

I sat beside a group of girls on saturday night and said
Me 'sorry girls my legs are agony mind if i sit here for a minute'
one of them - 'of course no problem'
the other 'why are your legs sore'
my reply of the top of my head 'oh gee whizz uv opened me up here for a classic.' they all started laughing because they knew what was coming 'My legs are sore darling because ive been running through your mind all night'
Said this in a cocky funny way they all found me hilarious and i got the targets number and laid her that night.
That was not a routine that was all circumstantial but it worked also... I seriously would be happy to go head to head with anyone who sticks to single 'natural game'. There is a reason why STYLE was voted PUA so many times because he was DIVERSE yes he used routines and yes he eventually gained the knowledge to wing it. EVERY SINGLE MEETING OF A GIRL IS DIFFERENT so you have to adapt and having many paths to adapt into is a great advantage over sticking to a single solitary method.

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