I noticed that PUA is amazing at getting me looks, numbers, dates, and the occasional score, but I've also noticed that it quickly gets stuck in meaningless sex, and its really hard to transition in to a serious relationship from one I started by gaming. My only long relationships were ones where I was the one getting close in all the aspects. Is there a different guidebook for LTRs? And by that I don't mean Dr. Phil's guide to a vanilla flavored marriage... There's enough "buy her roses" bs out there already. I mean is there a fundamental change in attitude you're supposed to have when going for an LTR? Can you transition from a pickup/F-close with PUA in to a meaningful relationship? Or are you stuck in the game mode for as long as the relationship lasts? That said, I never game deceptively. I don't hide anything about myself which would come out negatively in a relationship, so I don't see skeletons in the closet as the reason I have a difficult time turning game in to serious relationships.. Could it be that girls most susceptible to being gamed are also the ones that aren't interested in anything serious?

Also I noticed I've started to develop almost a pavlovian response, which may be bad. Any time i see a girl falter, in a relationship, I instantly pull back. My experience of trying to fix relationships showed it to be completely futile.. and ironically the only times a doomed relationship worked was after I gave up and let go.. I've turned in to something of a caricature of the opposite of every serenading love song on the radio.. Instead of fighting for the girl when she's wavering, I become distant and let go, because I fear becoming a clingy mangina even more than I fear being dumped, and my experience shows it to be utterly pointless to try to convince a girl to stay if she's doesn't think a relationship is working. If course... I don't talk about it. I keep it to "if you don't want a relationship then I won't be the one trying to save it" attitude. and cut all contact after the breakup. In the end, some come back. Is this misguided?

I found that PUA has enabled me to pick up loads of girls who are like 18 - 21 and are therefore rarely suitable for anything serious, finding more mature women is a challenge especially as I myself am only 23.

Generally, I think open and honest communication is the key to a relationship but you have to be careful that you don't think "Okay, she is special, I don't need to game her" because in my experience that is usually when you DO need to game her.

I think those lays give you long term confidence to be able to attract women and keep them for the long term without worrying too much about whether or not you will lose them since due to PUA you know you will easily be able to replace them. Women find that attractive in a man because when she sees that a man has options, she knows that he can drop her and now she wants to keep him because the man lacks desperation.

_________________
I just come on here these days to give advice and read interesting threads. Gone are the days when I came to seek advice and validation.

At what point (after first f-close) do people think its normal to become "exclusive"/bf/gf here? I generally stick to about a month. Most guys think its fine, some think its insanely short.
This is an xpost, from an excerpt i left somewhere else, but here:
...I have friends that are MAJOR players. They pull tail like a tugboat pulls ships. They are also completely incapable of maintaining a serious exclusive relationship for more than a month or two. I'm definitely not there yet, but even at my early stage, I can feel the slide starting in that direction. Everything just goes down the shitter, because they have become so set in the mindset of "I'm a player I can do what I want", that no self respecting woman is willing to commit to someone with that attitude. It's one thing to be the man in the relationship and not let yourself be controlled/disrespected, but PUA teaches us to treat it all like a game.. Like many others have said, it works just fine as a game to get sex, but it won't land you healthy exclusive LTRs....
Basically, once we get used to trivializing relationships, they tend to not last.

This is such a great post and deserves a sticky devoted to answering it.

These are the same questions and problems I have/see with all the advice. The question being: how do you have a meaningful relationship while recognizing that (unfortunately) the game is always on.

_________________
Total f*ckin' noob

It's not about your game. It's about where you are and where she is in life. If you two are both ambitious and working towards something, then having a partner is ideal, for sharing your successes and helping you through failures. To me, that's an ideal LTR.

_________________
Take intelligent risks and you will find the opportunities that others miss.

pua will actually impede your ability to have healthy ratio ships w women as it's fear based (uses manipulations lowering a targets self esteem,and passive aggressive behavior such as freezing out) to reach an objective of getting laid. There's no transition point to healthy egalitarian relationships when it's so power construed.

Ive been pondering along these lines lately... with the focus being so squarely on "being alpha" and all the advice that goes with it, people seem to forget that "Alpha" do not have to imply "douchebag".

Heres' my thought trail: IMO, every girl (every girl i know) is playing the game - women design it and force everyone to play - if you think she's different and that she's not playing the game... youre about to lose the game. Somehow us males need to learn these truths, not to control our women, but so that we can actually give them what they want... to be spoken to in the way that a female wants to be spoken to. A LTR can be maintained, while maintaining your own S & R value, through interacting with a women the way she wants to be spoken to (the game), but not for the goal of "victory" but rather her sense of love and peace.

_________________
Total f*ckin' noob

There is a book that I read called The System by Doc Love, it seems to be the opposite of Short term game in that it focuses on building Long Term Relationships using the same concepts of Short term game but with modifications. This book helped me get into the game but the problem was that I needed to get into a relationship first(short term) so thats when I decided to become a hybrid Pua/Gentleman that combine the Short Term/Long Term, still I need a hell of lot of practice in the Short term.Good Luck.

_________________
You never know what the answer will be until you ask.

google the best of relationship forum masf

_________________
Learn the proper way to maximize your results in a dancefloor/club environment, check out my blog and youtube channel:
http://www.dancefloorseduction.com

Dancefloor/Club game youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/dancefloorseduction

I don't understand the question ... is it that the PUA who doesn't want to quit gaming to be replaced by long term relationship? Or the girl doesn't want to be in a long term relationship because you are a player?

Either way, the book I learned on keeping a long term relationship ... for someone you are willing to be exclusive with is ...

The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida ... here is a free pdf version ^_^!

http://smilyanov.net/download/pdfs/The% ... %20Man.pdf

Sincerely,

Donston

Firstly, I think you have to look at why it doesn't lead anywhere serious. Chances are it's not because of the 'gaming', but because the girl isn't right for you.

Look at the (generalised) version of how a "traditional" relationship works....

1) Boy meets girl, both fancy each other.
2) Don't have sex for a while for whatever reason, usually want to get to know each other better first.
3) Develop a bit of an emotional connection.
4) Then have sex.

Now, if you weren't "gaming" girls, and were doing traditional dating things, firstly you'd probably only go on dates with girls you had met once or twice (or more) and liked a little bit in the first place. Secondly, if you realised after a couple of dates that you didn't actually like this girl all that much, you wouldn't date her any longer. You'd get no sex out of it at all, but you wouldn't have even really started a relationship.

Whereas traditional dating might see a lot of potential relationships cut off before sex when they realise they're not emotionally compatible, the nature of pick up means that you have sex first and then realise you're not emotionally compatible. Our stage 3 of the above process is non-existent. Or we do create a connection, but it's nowhere near as deep as the "traditional" relationship structure. We maybe have a comfort building phase (maybe 5 minutes in a club smoking area, maybe a couple of dates max), but generally we don't spend weeks and months getting to know the girl before we sleep with her. We condense stage 3 into a much smaller time frame and instead really amp up the sexual tension/attraction element instead.

So it's not really that surprising that pick up doesn't lead anywhere serious. Most "traditional" dates will lead nowhere as well, but rather than paying for her popcorn and cinema ticket and/or a nice meal and then ditching her when you realise you're not compatible, you sleep with her instead and then ditch her because you realise you're not compatible (or keep sleeping with her anyway!).

In many ways, pick up is beneficial in going for relationships. As seen above, there tends to be two 'parts' to a relationship; the emotional connection and the physical attraction. Who says doing one before the other is the "better" or "right" way of doing it? Most relationships will have the physical attraction first anyway, it's just that they don't act upon that until they are more sure of the emotional connection.

So,
Process A, the "traditional dating" process = a process of seeing if you can connect emotionally with a girl you are physically attracted to (and not having sex until you have developed said connection).

Process B, the "pick up to relationship" process = a process of seeing if you can connect emotionally with a girl you are physically attracted to (whilst already having sex).

The only difference between the two is that you'll both be acting upon your physical and sexual impulses at the same time as developing your emotional connection.

Next point to cover quickly is exactly how the emotional connection is created in a "traditional" dating process. Is there a magic trick? Do all guys do something in particular to create that connection with a girl? No. They just spend time together and realise they get on, in much the same way as you do with your male friends, but obviously because you get on with a female who is a lot hotter than your male friends, it eventually leads into a sexual relationship!

So based on that, we can substitute the wording in Process B to read like this:
A process of spending time with and realising you get on with a girl you are physically attracted to (whilst already having sex).

Now, a lot of this will depend on the sort of pick up you're involved in. If you rely heavily on canned material, a lot of mind games type game playing, cheesy chat up lines, creating a certain persona or something like that, then how is the girl ever going to get to know the real you? If, however, you are more "natural" in your pick up, and you basically just use pick up material to boost your confidence and develop a slightly better/more confident/more sexually aware extension of yourself, then it should be quite easy for the girl to get to know you without changing anything at all. Just by spending more time with her and using your natural-game game, she will still be getting to know the real you bit by bit and you will see if anything develops.

So, there are two options. Either go down the traditional dating route. Create the emotional connection first and then start having sex with her. Bear in mind you probably won't be having sex with her and, if you don't want her to get angry when she finds out you've been sleeping with other girls whilst dating her, you're probably not going to be sleeping with anyone at all!

Second option is to game the girl first as you normally would. Sleep with her. Get her over again. Maybe just continue to hook up. Even if she comes over just for sex, you will, I imagine, speak to her at least a tiny bit before/after. That's the spending time together bit. Obviously, if it's not just for hooking up and you start to do things like cooking her a meal first and chatting through that, or maybe just chatting in bed afterwards, you are going to create more and more of an emotional connection. If you then realise you don't like her, ditch her (or keep on sleeping with her casually). If you do like her, then you can start - SLOWLY - to do more traditional date type stuff, but at the same time continuing to sleep with her and keeping the sexual physical attraction there.

The slowness is important. Don't just suddenly flick a switch and be like "yeah I've slept with you once, I'm now madly in love with you, can we go to the cinema tomorrow night?" Just do stuff like I mentioned above, after a couple of hook ups, maybe cook her dinner before hand instead. Maybe just hang out for a bit longer before/after you've had sex. Then maybe invite her out to a party you're going to or to the cinema and build from there.

Bottom line is this - I really think that the main reason that "PUAs" don't get into relationships is for one of two reasons. Firstly, they just don't want a relationship and just want casual sex. Fine, but obviously not relevant for this post! The second is that the girls they hook up with just aren't right for them to be in a real relationship with. Fine, what does it matter? As above, most people will meet loads of girls they aren't compatible with before they get into a proper relationship, they just don't sleep with them first. So basically, keep sleeping with girls like normal, slowly spend more time with her and see if you're compatible or not. If yes, great, if no then at least you've had a bit of fun before hand.