Maybe the right word here isn't quality but more so above average or decent guys (not nice guys).

I have known guys who were tall and muscular, guys who were outgoing and financially well off, and guys who were overall cool guys to chill with and had decent looks. All of the guys I have known in these categories have done poorly with the opposite sex. One of my friends is an outgoing, fun loving, tall, and average looking dude who can light up the entire room with his personality and yet he still gets friendzoned and has talked about how most girls don't like him. One guy I know has been reading PUA material for a year now, doing approaches, and he has a hookup every now and then (with an average looking girl he says) but he still complains about his dating life sucking.

These guys aren't World of Warcraft Geeks or Incels with cripping self-esteem. A lot of these guys sound like on the surface that they would be a catch.

Now I know some of you in here have worked as dating coaches or helped others get laid. Just what could be going on tot he point that these guys are doing so terrible with girls?

_________________
I just come on here these days to give advice and read interesting threads. Gone are the days when I came to seek advice and validation.

Cause they don't know how to turn women on...

Probably one of these three mistakes, in particular #2 and #3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiWFpTtT2iE

_________________
http://www.joshsway.com -- dating, online dating, fitness, fashion, and more...

They probably don't recognize when a girl is attracted to him when it slaps them dead in the face. They can't see any IOIs, and therefore can't get her into a sexual state.


The biggest thing that improved my game was kino, I reckon most guys struggle with this.

2 and 3 are right on point. You can blame it on culture too, some cultures just aren't naturally touchy so it is definitely out of the norm there.

_________________
I just come on here these days to give advice and read interesting threads. Gone are the days when I came to seek advice and validation.

For once you bring up a very good point.

From my experience... When I got into PUA I learned a shit load about women. I got good experience, realistic idealisms and I knew I could go so far when talking to a woman and knowing a bit about what was and what wasn't a waste of time. It was brilliant. But you know what PUA got me? It got me a social circle, it got me women of a lesser pedigree than I was used to. It got me friends, it got me confidence and it made me used to being around both men and women and knowing how to feel about things... but what was I like before that? I had the women. I had the interest... I didn't have it in clubs. I had it in personality, in person and personal interaction. No guy could take a woman from me when I had time to really connect with them.

A bit about me? I'm above average looking, I always have been. I'm naturally skinny, I have an 8/10 face and I have a decent personality. I can be interesting, I can be fun and I can be loving, something that I didn't need Pick Up for at all. Pick Up... it's probably me, it's probably the mentality with PUA... but it made me different. It made me less of a comforter and more of an approacher/extrovert.

I would support anything anyone says about balance and I would point the finger at myself for being unbalanced but the fact is, for me, since getting into PUA i've been scoring 6 and 7s, nothing I would be proud about and nothing I would deny either. It's been more frequent but it's not something I would really count as being a massive plus for me, personally. I have high standards and they pay off. I did learn one thing even though it's a line for a PUA... "Everyone is beautiful." And the truth is, everyone is beautiful or can be beautiful but only so few will have the personality to make a 6 or a 7 an 8 or a 9. When you find those women you won't get them with Pick Up mentality.

I'm not sure you could say "quality men" and "terrible with" the opposite sex in the same sentence.

I guess that's a philosophical topic there's no need to get in too. So I have 2 theories. The guys you think are quality aren't. How do you know these guys? are they friends? But you say "all the guys you know"?. These guys are probably weird like you.
When you're weird it doesn't matter how good you look or successful you are, you're not keeping decent pussy around long and you might not be able to get it at all.

The second theory is piggyback on what the first and second response said. They don't have any idea how to seduce women. Maybe deep in their souls women is not what they are truly after, even though they aren't admitting it to themselves. I'm a firm believer in that women want what they can't have. They don't want what they know they can easily have. And women usually know when they can easily have something. When these guys make it obvious, that's obvious.

Social Proof. Women want a man that is popular, that never fails.

easy lol they don't know how to finish....u can have all the pick up game in the world but if you act like a friend after the pick up then you're going to get friend zoned...Most "quality men" are bad with women because subconsciously they believe that since i have ____ or _____ i can get women.

for instance a man with an aesthetic body like zyzz but has no personality will actually get less girls than an average guy with the skills of a expert PUA. a millionaire (unless its a celeb) will get less girls than an expert pua....

they don't have to be cocky and can actually be very humble but society has taught us through countless movies that if you're rich or if you have money or if you have an amazing job or dreams that you'll get the girl of your dreams...when in reality you have to work to get the girls the same way you have to work to get a body or get a high paying job.

the BIGGEST thing that people don't understand about being a PUA is you have to be yourself, girls can somehow tell when you are using somebody else material or its not from the heart. alot of big shot with dating problems look up pick up lines or use stuff they think sounds good when i reality they should read this material and come up with their own ideas of what to say and make it more natural

_________________
"My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."-Alfie

The major thing guys despise is the power of touch (kino).

I don't see many guys touching girls, and it makes girls crazy that they can't even be around such guys. They start seeing these guys as boring, insecure, not confident, I can keep going for ages. From the moment I learned kino in a body language book was the moment girls were touching me too often and flirting with me, it's unbelievable and I guarantee that it is one of the best methods for picking up girls.

Your friends seem to lack touching other girls, and if they do, it's probably because they say things they don't mean. Girls know when a guy is lying or telling the truth, well maybe not always but most of the time they do find out. These guys (your friends) are most probably not expressing their-selves honestly, and their body language is most probably clearly showing.

Those last few lines; Well said. Incredible and spot on. That's one of my largest hurdles to date.

"So what do I really want? A relationship (STR/STR)? A friend-zone pal? A F-buddy? What?" I have to ask myself this constantly so so that I don't make the #2 mistake mostly. F*CK Liking her. That's for later. What do I need right now?

_________________
Thanks,

WGY

"Do you have some good openers for Chinese girls?"
"They usually don't need an opener. Most of them are the pull-tab kind."

Don't GAF, just DGAF (think about it)

Fear is the mind killer. Anger is the mood killer.