A lot of articles relating to pickup talk about looks like they are set in stone like height or race are. I have personally seen a few people go up a lot of points on the 1-10 scale.

What I want to know is this, can we as students make looks a non-factor by improving them to the point that we have passed the "looks threshold"?

What I am asking is if a lot of guys out there can have above average and good looks by going to the gym and working on style, why do so many PUAs talk about looks like they are set in stone?

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I just come on here these days to give advice and read interesting threads. Gone are the days when I came to seek advice and validation.

Your question is a big vague but I think I know where you are trying to go with it.

Can men cross the "good looks threshold?": Yes.

Women don't focus on looks nearly as much as men do. We Men are very visually stimulated and only very late in the process do we start thinking about her intangibles (personality, business acumen etc.).

Women, on the other hand, is far more likely to make a decision on a man based on masculinity, ability to provide etc. That's why you see ugly dudes in Range Rovers with hot 22 year old receptionists.

In a less materialistic tone, women give men the benefit of the doubt. She'll judge you based on preliminary looks, but she'll also break you down by looking at how you treat the waitress, how much you tip, whether you talk positively about your mother, if you like kids etc.

Another thing is EFFORT. Girls love EFFORT. When you buy a card and flowers and give it to her on a random day of the week, that is seen as EFFORT. Going to the gym and trying to look good is all EFFORT and drive. Women see those as sexy, redeeming qualities. So yes, keep looking good and taking care of yourself.

So do looks matter? Yes. How much does it matter? Not as much as you think.

Hope this helped

Honestly, they don't.

1. Everyone has different tastes. Every girl likes different types of guys just like every guy likes different types of girls. I met a girl this past weekend who said she didn't find Channing Tatum attractive at all where most girls you would assume would be drooling over him. Some guys like super skinny girls... Personally, I like girls who are more curvy.

2. Even if looks DO matter... what are you going to do about it? I've learned that the best way to live life is to play the cards that you are dealt instead of bitching about the fact that your hand isn't as good as someone elses. Do what you can with your life... Play it the best you can and you will be happy.

3. Looks won't get you laid. Not consistently anyways. A pretty face might get a girl to talk to you for an extra 2 seconds but once she realizes that you are a dud of a personality... those looks won't matter. As said, women aren't nearly as visual as men. Women respond to how you make them FEEL. Being good looking is like a paint job on a car... it doesn't matter how nice the paint job is if the car has a shitty motor on the inside.

-Majik

I usually agree with you guys, especially Majikal, but you are seriously wrong if you believe that. When women talk other "qualities", they men RELATIONSHIPS. They don't mean one night stands and hookups which most of are trying to go after. Women want to be with the best looking guys possible, that is a fact and even the most hardcore PUAs will acknowledge the importance of looks. Younger girls (18-22), value them over everything else in my experience.

What I am getting at is that with so many tools guys can use to better their appearance, why do we talk about looks like they are cards we have been dealt?

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I just come on here these days to give advice and read interesting threads. Gone are the days when I came to seek advice and validation.

Because only certain things about your looks can be changed. Even then, it might be really difficult for some. Skinny guys, for instance, often complain they can't put on muscle no matter how much they exercise. Or think if you have bad bone structure, or you're going bald. A bald guy can shave his head, which works for some women... but all women love a guy with a great head of hair. Wigs look like crap, and I don't know if plugs work or not but not everyone can afford them.

So around here you hear a lot about getting in shape and dressing nicer, and that's about it for looks. Why focus on stuff you can't do a lot to change, when your internal attitude can always be changed? Especially when that internal attitude can make a bigger difference?

I'm not sure I buy that only looks matter for those 18-22 year olds. Fitness might matter a lot but if you had two guys with similar physiques, one of whom is balding yet confident vs an insecure guy with great hair, the balding guy would get more girls.

Not only working out and getting fit

style
facial hair/stubble
lotion/skin moisturizer
clean teeth
if you are pale then tan a little
lower BF to make facial features more prominent
hygiene
posture
vitamins/diet

and not to mention surgery, a rhinoplasty can do wonders for some guys

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I just come on here these days to give advice and read interesting threads. Gone are the days when I came to seek advice and validation.

Well let's look at that and categorize shall we?

Getting Fit will cover:
lower BF to make facial features more prominent
posture
vitamins/diet

Style would include:
facial hair/stubble
if you are pale then tan a little

Hygiene would include:
lotion/skin moisturizer
clean teeth

So really most things are rolled up into a couple broad categories, which are often talked about around here.

I'd also argue that some of us (e.g. me) don't tan for shit. Others might just have bad teeth... and yes, you are right that plastic surgery is out there but again, not everyone can afford that.

Plus you ignored the major point... given slightly worse looks a guy with more confidence will win out. So the real lesson is do what you can, but don't get hung up on your looks.[/quote] I've seen plenty of dorkier, fatter, and uglier guys than me with hot girls. Maybe not for one night stands but if you can at least get yourself in shape and master basic hygiene and style, confidence should take you the rest of the way.

I think everything is subjective. Some girls are shallow. Some aren't.

Myself: I'm a good looking guy in the face, probably an 8 or so. I'm tall. I'm very tone and fit, but I'm still really skinny (6', 140lbs). I keep the dirty stubbly on my face. My teeth aren't the whitest or straightest. I have cuts and scars up and down my body from all my accidents (action sports junkie). And I have a serious farmers tan from welding all day in my shop with t-shits.

With that said, I've landed some seriously Hotttt women. I have dated models, strippers, I married a porn star. I do very well with women who have above average looks.

At this same time, my latest ex for instance is really effing hot. She could easily model (if she was 6' instead of 5'3). She's even worked in fashion. But her ex before me, was a pretty average looking balding guy. I'm better looking than him by a long shot. And I'm not even close to as good looking as she is. (she's an 10.5 and I'm an 8 )

Then there have been pretty average looking women I haven't gotten with, that I turn around and see with guys I can clearly tell beat me out in the looks department.

So it's all very subjective.

yes yes and yes. I have a patent on a new male spray paint that makes Reggie Bush look like an Albino

A person can not change the appearance, but the shape can change, female micro herself by volume, hoping to make their best side to see the other half.

I think we're all in agreement in the end: Looks matter.

There is a % of an innate attraction bundle of attributes that we reach back to when we judge attractiveness.

Its the reason women tend to go for men with a big jawline and broad shoulders and why men go for big tits, wide hips and juicy lips. Fertility/child rearing ability, safety, genes etc. all come into play.

At first glance, of course looks will dominate your decision making. Depending on the level of the good looks and how certain people are wired, decisions will be made completely out of status/vanity or made via past experiences (good or bad).

Point being, do people with better looks have an advantage? Yeah. Can people overcome looks issues with some effort and style? Yeah.

I guess I really don't want kids, because I go for the small tits, size 0-1 waist and thin lipped girls. Just my personal preference.

Oxytocin.

In psychology there's a huge debate between behaviourism and cognitive psychology as to whether or not we're slaves to our genes or if we have real free will. There's mounting evidence to support that our biology is a much more important factor to gaining attraction and comfort with someone than the thought processes behind attraction. Oxytocin for one is the "sex/bonding" hormone. Look it up. It's basically why Kino works so well and why you should be using it on women to gain sexual attraction. It generates attraction essentially.

Anyway, if I went on i'd write a small essay, fact is you're wrong. Looks aren't as important as men believe they are. If a woman see Danny De Vito and a hot looking guy at either side of the room who is she going to run towards and look for attention from? Danny De Fucking Vito. Why? Social value. Chances are she won't look twice at the hot looking guy because he can't possibly come near to the social value Danny De Vito could give her.

Women don't want the best looking guy. They want the guy that will impress their friends the most. Looks is only a factor in this but there is a lot more riding on other aspects such as his social value, how fun he is to be around and what everyone else thinks about him. If she finds a guy who everyone needs to have around but he's average looking she's going to choose him over the boring good looking guy.

It's part marketing (the idea that you don't need looks to have game) and it's part because much of a PUAs job is to improve the other aspects of your game. To answer your question is yes, you can improve your looks A LOT by going to the gym and having good fashion sense etc. With that said, there are always girls who think a certain guy is ugly. I can tell you that women's views on looks are very individualized and vary dramatically.

And btw, guys worry so much about looks, but POWER is by far the most attractive quality. Powerful men get the most girls, way more than good looking men, and that includes one night stands etc.

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http://www.joshsway.com -- dating, online dating, fitness, fashion, and more...

Paramount, I don't think many people on here do say that the things you mention are set in stone. Hair styles, facial hair, style, fitness etc. are all talked about on here loads. There are sub forums devoted entirely to these aspects. Pretty much every post I've seen on here which discusses these things say that you should strive to make yourself look as good as you can. Obviously you are stuck with some things short of spending loads on plastic surgery. You can't change the positioning of your eyes etc. but you can try and hide some features such as a slightly crooked chin by maybe growing out some stubble or a beard etc.

As for their importance, looks are important but they're just another aspect. If you're not great looking but have really tight game, then you can still get women. If you're ridiculously good looking and have poor game, you will still get women based on your looks alone.