Are you taking this discussion on ideas personally?

If you had read my post, what I've been saying is that your "common" pick up mistake is not that common rather the gender role reversal among men and women is the most common pick up mistake.

The delivery of sexual innuendos is also not verbalizing a contract but rather a seduction tool since women are more fond of words than visuals.

It seems that you have not read artful roger's link at all and what erotic romance novels imply for pick up. Women fantasize about the emotional roller coaster ride in these erotic novels along with the alpha male characters. Moreover, women get wet from the words in these novels rather than the visuals that men's porn have.

Let's simplify the erotic romance novel formula:

Emotional roller coaster ride + Alpha males + Erotic feminine language = Erotic Romance Novel

Therefore, a good pick up artist should use all 3 major components of the erotic romance novel for sarging efficiency.

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I do not know about you guys but one thing is being turned on by a woman with a great body telling that she has a better way for the pizza that has been just delivered and then watching her doing her very professional job.
And another very different thing would be having that happening to me in real life. I'm not sure if I would want to really life those experiences or have something to do with a woman who acts that way...

What someone enjoys watching in a movie or reading in a book does not necessarily mean that they would like to experience it in real life. I mean on a video game, book or movie is really fun to fight orcs, zombies, aliens, dragons but I do not thing it would be fun at all in real life. I bet the same can happen with emotional roller coasters.

Also I'm afraid that the words written on a book is not what turns women on, the visuals and sounds that they make in their mind while reading those words does. How many times have you heard something like: "Ohhh I liked the book much better, that character in the movie is not like the one I imagined?"

Most, if not all, erotic romance novels have lots of sex and very minimal, if not zero, orcs, zombies, aliens and dragons. So if a person would rather be slaying orcs and dragons in a computer game instead of having sex in real life, then that's his choice. However, most normal human beings have sex.

Here is one best selling erotic novelist and her successful formula that made her sell over 800 million novels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danielle_Steel Her formula is about the ups and downs in life, "men who are relationship phobic and ultimately discover their true loves," and "overly redundant, detailed" and explicit story telling instead of making her readers feel that they are living the story.

This is just one author of course. There are a lot more. But this one sold +800 million books. She is my mother's and a few ex girlfriends' favorite.

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Let me start this with I'd rather be a Seducer than pick up artist... In other words I'd rather get laid than catch a phone number or get a date...The best Seducers are responsive... react to what is happening... the best game doesn't hold one tactic or the other but both... if you want good game you'll know when to use one, the other, or both.
^Why write this if you don't live by it? A woman fantasizes about being desired by a man so much he can barely control himself and verbalizing it is a huge turn on, of course I consider myself more of a seducer than a pick up artist. I've "exceeded fantasies" with my tactics of verbalizing... seems like you saying that isn't in accordance with what you are trying to imply of "being a fantasy".

It's important to realize one of the most attractive features to women is the fact that he is not only a man but he shows VULNERABILITY, this is always the turning point in stories involving women's porn and what makes women so aroused is you SPEAKING your desire... in fact it's the most powerful seduction technique out there (not pick up), the best naturals use it and when I was younger I look back and I used it...it worked when I used it every time in the correct situation which seemed to be EVERY TIME I used it.

Men don't just show their intentions with actions, though they do lead true men verbalize it because they aren't afraid to show vulnerability... This mean verbally putting themselves out there...

The best seduction artists... not pick up artist but seduction artists use both techniques: directly verbalizing and leading... they know how and when to use each tactic.... verbalizing is important with some women and in other times it's important simply to lead... the important thing to remember is women have ears and that is the best way to persuade them... therefore what should we do? SHOW THEM DESIRE VERBALLY... as Hellhound has been alluding to.

A true confident man isn't afraid to state his intentions... and honestly that should be what "a man" is not you being afraid to show you intentions through verbalizing... It's not a mistake to verbalize it's a mistake to be needy and show no confidence when you do this shit... I've had multiple women say "that was echoing in my head and turned me on so much" when I've whispered in their ear "I can't wait to fuck your brains out"... In short verbalizing is the most powerful weapon of all and to say that "a man" doesn't do it is just not true... and it shows a limited set of skills with women when you don't use it.

The key to all of it is basic: DON'T BE NEEDY and DON'T BE AFRAID TO SHOW VULNERABILITY... when a good Sexual innuendo is done you are laughing NOT joking... and this is the key. This is the difference between a Seduction artist and a Pick Up artist... one uses one while a seduction artist uses both and knows when to do either.... I don't know about you but I would rather seduce and get laid than get a phone number or a kiss good night.

Peace and Love,

Vic

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I was going to leave this one alone but if 2 members can't grasp it, there must be something wrong with my delivery. Here's another attempt.

1. Contract seeking is a PU mistake. Can we all agree on this? This is when you're in the middle of a conversation during a 1st or 2nd meeting or trying to set up a date and you, "We'll take the car to xxx and make out." - Verbalizing this intention does not come from the desire to seduce but a desire for a confirmation. You want a sure thing. You want the girl to go, "Yes, of course we'll make out. I'm going to suck your cock and swallow your spunk too!" This is very different than verbalizing sexual intentions for the purpose of turning her on.

2. What I termed "Super Contract Man" works. This is what 80% of all forum members here do. It's popular. Read some of Chief's old posts and essentially, this is it. You kids are saying that you do this as a seduction tool. Fine . . . now I understand your intentions. However, functionally speaking, this act still confirms CONTRACTS. It doesn't matter if a girl responds by, "No doubt! Let's get out of here." . . . or "You're crazy. No way. As if, I am going to fuck you," (Which by the way = "YES") You are still setting up a future fuck session here and now.

3. The order in which I placed the three categories isn't in order of what is 'most effective' in fuck %. Rather, t's a chronological order of the way I see most guys progress. You can't have an understanding for 2 if you haven't tried 1. You can't have an understanding for 3, unless you've been doing the first 2 for a while. . . and these shifts in the way guys think don't occur through effort. It just happens naturally through age. On a college campus, bouncing back and forth from one girl to the next and telling her that she turns you on and you want to fuck her is a sure shot. Doing this in city bar filled with working aged people is absolutely immature.

* I'm surprised that the guy who wrote a 50+ manifesto on the importance of body language is suggesting that "not verbalizing sexual intent" will get you numbers and a kiss on a cheek.

And a few random thoughts:

Women are not turned on by paperback books. They are not turned on by words. They are turned on by its contents. While watching a movie or reading a book, women tend to inject themselves into a character. They put themselves into the shoes of a female character. They are far more imaginative than men. Leading male characters in romantic novels and movies (geared toward women) do not repeat, "I am going to fuck your brains out." - However, watch any male oriented porno movie and what does the male character say? ..... Watch all the teen-oriented sexual comedies and what do all the goofy teenagers do? ....

Again, I am not suggesting that ^this doesn't work out because it does. And I understand the push back on the actually BECOMING the character of a romance novel or romance movie. This isn't a technique but character. You are or you are not. There's been lots written in this forum about "how to be" alpha or "how to be" confident but these things cannot be achieved within the confines of simply desiring to be one thing or another. . .

One more example:

This might be easier to explain when we take the 'verbal' vs. 'behavior' topic out of pick-up. (I know you guys are pretty excited about the way you do things in terms of PU.)

In a boardroom filled with execs, I've never known a CEO to shout, "I'm excited about this. I am going to do this and that. We are going to do this and that. I am your leader." - Instead, going around the room and adding value to each operation not only helps to achieve desired outcome, it demonstrates leadership, effectiveness, and his excitement.

Another example:

When shopping for cars, what type of sales person verbalizes the most? Yeah, it's the guy with the crappy car and a crappy deal. A salesperson who is excited for an awesome car and an awesome deal pretty much shuts up and lets the customer gawk and drool . . . the sales guy listens . . . and answers questions.

There exists a completely different way you can present yourself to the World, not only in terms of PU, but socially and professionally. This is worth some thought.

^ kasabi is totally right here, you do not need to be verbalizing your intentions, the biggest mistakes of pick up artist is that they think, she says this ... Then i have to say that... Most communication is none verbal, and actually the biggest mistakes of the whole forum, is that they put too much emphasis on verbals and seduction/game, instead of focusing on fucking the girl. Actually even me in my lay reports( you see how i drag out the sexting, when i can fuck them from the beginning, due to i need to do that since i have logistic problems)... Anyways good stuff by everybody contributing in this posts. Wtf, with the novels big lol.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjzRtIn1S8U[/youtube]

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I did not discredit your post just what a "a man" does vs. what "super contract" does... I merely pointed out that a confident man is unafraid to use his words in a way that seduces a woman... and yes that means stating his thoughts/intentions... Why limit someone to a classification based on what someone does? What if we use both as a means for seduction? What would you classify us as then?

My point was that you should use BOTH tactics and know when you should use words and when you shouldn't.... that was the point.

Yes I'm big on body language and your body language needs to be congruent with the message (why does my position on body language have anything to do with this?)... There is definitely a way men progress and I do believe body language is in fact the most important part but as I said you should know how and when to use BOTH tactics to seduce a woman...

The key is your behaviors need to be congruent, not be needy, and show vulnerability at key points in the interaction and yes you need all 3 or you are just some guy "getting lucky".

The more tools you have the better limiting yourself to one behavior or the other simply limits you, why would you want to do that? Why not learn to utilize both tools properly during the right time?

Peace and Love,

Vic

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The confusing side of this discussion:

Regarding what poetic is saying, I don`t actually think you are going against what kasabi said; in other words: kasabi proposes for us men to go through all the stages. Even in a specific order, wich means that you already know and have used those tools before.

Therefore; you have all the tools that you are recommending.

What I`m confused about is the next point: the last step, the third one about being The Man, it`s a different angle on seduction as kasabi states. It`s as if you`ve cracked the matrix, what I believe he is implying with this approach is that this can be the most effective one.

As he stated: YOU DON`T NEED to use the others, those were simply tons of fluff talk and effort wasted. As if you could get the lay and the girl far easier, of course, this comes from experience.

So my question is this to the both of you: why does kasabi believes that once you`ve achieved that mindset you won`t need anymore the other tools.

And to poetic: why do you believe that a seduced will always need a bit of the three? Is it because of the girl you are interacting with? The kind of game she likes to play, and you as an experiences male provide that game for her?


Thank you.

It's not always a bit of the three, I don't think the first one is anything but training wheels(I completely agree this shit is a weak form of game)... it's the two that work that I tend to use. Yes silence and leadership can be hot and sexy but depending on the moment so can whispering "I'm going to fuck your brains out." While slowing moving your hands up and down their body.

Well since I use a read and react game I tend to understand when it's best to use silent leadership and when it's best to use suggestive language to build it up more. Yes "assuming the close" is important but so is knowing when the close isn't ready to be assumed.

The point I was trying to make was using your words can be fulfilling a fantasy as well as silent leadership... and while I don't always use verbal seduction... I do always use nonverbal leadership... so I understand his point... You won't be able to seduce every woman regardless but adding more assets such as the ability to have a seductive language pattern holds its value... you'll close more sales like any great salesman who has multiple tactics in his pocket. Someone who is a master seducer has more tools in his arsenal than just silent leadership... each holds its value but if you read women well and realize she's not quite ready to go a little good language will positively influence it.

A great salesman uses the correct body language and SAYS THINGS CORRECTLY... just as a great seducer does... I'm not talking about lying to women I'm talking about literally whispering into a woman's ear what you plan on doing to her to turn her on. Using the correct words that "penetrate her thoughts".... Yes men silently lead but seducers do a bit of both and have a good enough read on the women that they know when to do it and when not to. Most great salesman are also great seducers too... they all seem to have a slick tongue and charisma...

Peace and Love,

Vic

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There's nothing wrong with the delivery. The ideas are just harebrained.

For example:
As I've said, this not as common as gender role reversal. Most women want verbal confirmation rather than men.

Another example:
In here, you fail to understand anticipation excitement which is part of sexual escalation demonstrated verbally (or textually). It's not logic. It's emotional build up towards the deed.
Probably because you have never met several CEOs in boardrooms before. This is naive. The Chief Operating Officer or Vice President for Operations handles operations rather than the CEO. The CEO is the top company salesman for its investors and what have you.

Here's an example of a Vice President publicly announcing what she's going to do: http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/gm-c ... ml/?ref=YF

Here's an example of a CEO publicly announcing what he's going to do: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/regardles ... 26531.html

To quote: "New Groupon CEO Eric Lefkofsky thrilled Wall St. with better quarterly results than expected. He also spoke the magic words. Groupon will become more a mobile e-commerce company than a broken down coupon one. "

Company mission and vision statements exist for a reason.

Of course, CEOs don't shout as much as men don't shout to women: "I'm going to fuck your brains out.". CEOs publicly announce (using print, tv, internet and radio) what they're going to do.

_________________
Approach. Open. Escalate. Isolate

Here are my two essential rules on texting that will save you tons of time and money:

general-questions/topic137931.html

Your sexting is okay as well as your seduction dance. Verbal sexual escalation is a tool to meet women's sexual needs. Unlike men who are ready to fuck when they see a nipple or a beaver shot, women need some 20 minutes of foreplay. Foreplay usually includes lots of touching and words. Women take a long time to get ready unless a woman is on her peak ovulation.

Textual or verbal sexual escalation are important in seduction as foreplay tools leading to the f-close. Take that out and it's like chopping off the leg of a marathon athlete or capoeira fighter.

_________________
Approach. Open. Escalate. Isolate

Here are my two essential rules on texting that will save you tons of time and money:

general-questions/topic137931.html

^ Kasabi is agreeing with you, he say it does work(teevester, and even i do it a lot), but my understanding is that he is saying you can get away with it without doing it that and verbalizing, and i totally agree with him ( i make fun of the kissing routine of style, and people verbalizing relationship status, he is right, which is the goal of the post). About my texting and my dance game, a lot of dudes have gotten laid using directly my concepts, from that post there are about 4 - 5 dudes that got laid directly using it alone and admit publicly. From the dance stuff couple of birds as well, here is one of the many virgin-shackles-begone-bus-stop-pull-fr ... 64661.html ... What does that has to do with me, hellhound???, anyways, and why are you repeating same shit i advocate as a counter lol???

Do you know i hardly agree with kasabi, but i actually agree with this post, he is kind of dissing the gimmicky shit, at least that is what i got from the post, i may be wrong.

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No. Kasabi is repackaging Direct Game, Indirect Game and PUAHate No Game into a Taoist box complete with ribbons.

This goes against Vibe Theory or even Women's Ovulation Cycle Theory. During a woman's peak ovulation period, The Super Contract Man (Direct Game) works better than indirect game (The Reverse Contract Man).

Seduction is not a linear, sequential stage. It's adaptive to several factors like demographics, venue, physiology and so on.

The mastery of pick up is not the attainment of No Game but rather a mastery of all the tools that are available to the seducer.

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Approach. Open. Escalate. Isolate

Here are my two essential rules on texting that will save you tons of time and money:

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^ i totally agree with this, i guess i am out of this discussion, i did not get that from the post, my apologies...

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Learn the proper way to maximize your results in a dancefloor/club environment, check out my blog and youtube channel:
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EXACTLY... this is what I've been saying the whole time... LOL

It's too bad guys can be so linear... women are quite multi-dimensional if you can adapt you can win on more occasions... they aren't equation to be solved they are a creature to understand and adapt to her and be what she needs for the moment of you are choosing to seduce her...

Peaceand Love,

Vic

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Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com