EARLY FRAMING AND EXPECTATIONS

If a girl decides she likes you, then she’ll pretty much view all of your qualities in a positive light: your weird birthmark will become “cute”, your dumb jokes will become really funny and your messy bachelor pad will become rugged and manly. This is never truer than when you first start dating a girl. The very beginning of a relationship provides a unique window of opportunity to set a strong frame. Your frame is all the things you say and do to tell the girl who you are. It’s your reality. A girl will accept certain things about you, and your reality, in the beginning of a relationship that she’d never accept after six months of dating.

Your frame can be communicated verbally or implied through your actions. Here’s a list of some of the things that should be communicated very early and examples of how to do so:

Lover Frame vs. Provider Frame

Do you want to be viewed as a lover or a provider? If you are looking for a long term girlfriend, then you probably want to be viewed as a lover with provider potential. Guys who get subconsciously grouped into the provider category generally have to put up with a lot of crap before women will sleep with them. Women try and lock these guys down hard. So yeah, avoid the provider role as much as you can when you first start seeing a girl.

To indirectly communicate that you are a lover, as opposed to a provider, you should talk confidently about sex. Share entertaining stories about your good past sexual experiences (or hilariously terrible first date stories), get her to open up about sexual things and be non-judgmental about her past boyfriends and sexual experiences, and showcase your depth of knowledge on male-female interactions (which you should have in spades from reading this site). Personally, I like to tell stories about some of the AFC “dumb-guy” things that my friends / acquaintances have done in the past. All of this sets you apart from the typical guy and showcases your sexual confidence.

The thing you should NOT do is offer to pay for a girls’ stuff. Don’t offer to buy her drinks; don’t pay for her when you go out for dinner (unless she’s a really poor good-girl type) and don’t treat her to expensive vacations / gifts. You get the idea. Don’t use your money to subconsciously convince her to sleep with you or date you. This kind of behavior will put you squarely in the provider role.

Exclusive vs. Open

For the most part, all of a guy’s relationships should be considered open until they have a DTR (“define the relationship”) talk. Never initiate the DTR talk (you want her to be the one chasing you)! Furthermore, actively date multiple women until you find the right girl. This will keep you from developing oneitus for a girl before you’ve rationally decided if she’s relationship material. Man up and be honest about it if anybody asks (just don’t go into any specifics). It’s logical to date a lot of girls until you find the right one and it’s nothing you should feel the need to hide.

Monogamy should not be entered into lightly. If you are unsure whether or not a girl is fit for a long-term relationship, then keep her at the Fuck Buddy stage and follow the FB RULES until you know for sure. The big rules are (paraphrased from Tubarao’s fantastic post, which you should probably read - http://www.fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/se ... 9162438322 ):

0) The rules can be broken, but only if you’re experienced
1) Only see FB’s once a week, and the meet-up should always involve sex
2) Only phone/text/e-mail with FB’s to handle logistics (i.e. to set up a time and place to meet)
3) Don’t talk about the other women you are dating
4) Avoid doing any kind of boyfriend/girlfriend activities (i.e. don’t meet the family, no fancy dates)
5) Don’t get emotionally invested unless you’ve decided that she has long term potential

“If she communicates a desire for monogamy, upgrade or NEXT her immediately. If she demands monogamy, NEXT her immediately.” - Tubarao

When a girl starts a DTR talk (usually right after sex and usually with the question “So what are we?”), consider very careful what you’re getting yourself into when you answer.

Sex & Kink

If you have no intention of ever having a monogamous relationship ever again (like me), then you really should communicate that somehow in the beginning of a relationship. That goes for anything else that’s considered a bit “out there” by the cultural standards. Let her know very quickly if you are interested in swinging, BDSM, nudism, anal sex, or whatever else you can think of. If you can talk about these interests confidently (as if they were not a big deal), then she is going to be way more open to the idea of trying them. The key is to not back down if she shit tests you about any of them (it doesn’t happen very often – usually girls are fascinated and ask a lot of questions). If you do get shit-tested, then just explain that you feel very strongly about XYZ and that she should be open to at least trying it if she’s interested in having a serious relationship with you (i.e. hold your frame).

I repeat: it is absolutely mandatory to bring this stuff up very early on when you start dating somebody. You need to set up these kinds of expectations right away and you need to do it with confidence.

CONCLUSION

Persist and maintain! It is good leadership to set up expectations early and maintain them. Don’t compromise or allow a girl to change you. If she’s not on the same page as you, then don’t upgrade her to girlfriend status. There are a ton of awesome girls out there so don’t settle for one that isn’t a good match for you. By going this route, you get everything you want in a long term relationship and without any serious drama.

This is all stuff I have personally field-tested extensively. Feel free to ask questions.

-Wolf

Good stuff.

Most new guys will also be surprised by how many woman are DTF only as long as you introduce the sexual, non-provider, non-supplicater frame. This tells them

"I'm the kind of guy that fucks girls like you, and may or may not ever call them back."

I think you did a good job of explaining large elements of that "sexual man" vs. "good guy" frame

lover vs. provider is a good section. how would you recommend breaking the trend from being a provider to being a lover without straining the relationship?

Honestly, any answer I could give to this would be keyboard jockeying. I've never tried it and I think it would be really hard to do. If you present yourself one way to a girl and then present yourself a completely different way several weeks (or longer) into a relationship, then you are just asking for drama and shit tests. You would be acting incongruent and that is never good.

-Wolf

try three months. we have a pretty good program set up, every month one of us takes the other out for a date night (nice restaurant and movie, go carting), but every now and then i treat her to lunch or a movie or sometimes she asks me to make crepes for her (because my cooking game is the shit) if i think she deserves it. there seems to be a pretty good mix of the lover/provider role from me right now because we still have intimate moments often. not sex yet, but shes a virgin so she's making me work for it. just wanted to see how i measure up and see if any adjustments needed to be made ya know?

Is it possible to maintain strong frame when you are in relationship for around 3/4 months (dating n fucking almost a year) already? For example we need to do this or im gonna leave....or this shit dont work later on?

Hmm.. it's easy to maintain a frame you've set very early in the relationship. It's much harder to set NEW expectations after several months have gone by. That's why, as guys, we need to figure out what we want out of a relationship, and communicate that early.

So, to answer your question, that kind of thing does not work very well later on (it's riskier). I can't really say more then that unless you give me a specific example of what you're talking about.

-Wolf

_________________
Screening: drama-free-relationships-1-screening-vt124827.html
Bad Behavior: drama-free-relationships-3-the-soft-next-vt125554.html

I like your point about the lover vs provider. I did take my current gf on dates but nothing like what some of her past bfs did. She made it a point to tell me what she was use to but I refuse to pay for sex and have even told her so. At first when we began living together she really pushed hard again for the provider status bc that is what she thinks a relationship is, but having held my frame in the beginning it was easy to say 'I never gave you the impression I was that type of man and I never will be.'

In the end, even though she still drops hints about shit she may want, she doesnt really expect it any more. Even to the point now that if she is being really good in my opinion, I can buy her one of these things (because I want to, not bc I feel obligated to) she will appreciate it even more and not become and expectation.

I guess my point is that you are right, but there is a caveat. If you are really intending to have a real relationship, there needs to be some balance of both lover and provider. You even said it yourself that if you are trying to get a girl you want to be viewed as a lover with provider potential. So I believe that in order to make the actual relationship work, not just the time leading up to making her your gf, you need to compromise; but it should be on your terms and not because of an expectation of hers.

Public sex, anal sex, threesomes etc.

I did screen her a bit at the very beginning asking if she would do it with a girl, she said yes but when i brought this thing up now she is saying "but you didnt mention threesome". That's true but why else would i fucking ask this...women logic.

As for other things she is kind of agreeing but saying she is not ready for that yet...and that i wont die if we dont do it now.

Hmmm....taking advice on drama-free relationships from a guy who's vowed to not engage in monogamous relationships ever again - sounds like you've been hurt one too many times. Sounds more like a the kinda crackpot advice a teenage girl would read in Cosmo.

Having experienced several long-term relationships, I'm gonna throw this advice in the mental waste bin where it belongs.

Gonna click the back button on my browser now. Enjoy fellas.

Forum rules:
2. Be excellent to each other. Party on, dudes.
Give value and don't flame others. Flaming is what happens when you get all emotional and whiny after you read something that you disagree with. Calm down, tiger. Positivity is a lot more awesome than negativity. Trust me.

You are clearly attempting to discredit me without referencing the material I've posted. If you want to argue about the material in the post, then that's fine. However, instead you went with a personal attack. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as flaming and is against the forum rules.

/haters gonna hate

-Wolf

_________________
Screening: drama-free-relationships-1-screening-vt124827.html
Bad Behavior: drama-free-relationships-3-the-soft-next-vt125554.html

It's significantly easier to introduce those things into a new relationship, if you have had experience with them in a previous relationship, ironically. Girls want to be able to experiment with a guy who is confident that he knows what he's doing. Now here's some tips for if you didn't talk about this stuff early.. or don't have that much experience yourself:

Anal - If a girl is hesitant about introducing anal, then start off by getting a smaller vibrating butt plug to use during sex. She'll like it. Personally, I recommend this one: http://www.adameve.com/adult-sex-toys/v ... -3988.aspx To this day, it is my girlfriend's favorite sex toy. Use lube and insert it very, very slowly.. for best results, insert it while you're going down on her. Do your best to get her to orgasm the first time you use it, as it will provide a very unique and pleasurable experience.

Public sex & Threesomes - The easiest way to get frequent FMF threesomes starting mid-relationship is to first begin with a MFM threesome or a foursome. Ideally, the progression would go MFM --> MFMF --> FMF. Trust me on this. She'll be much more comfortable with you fucking another girl after she's had two guys at the same time. It's all about fairness, and she'll be much more likely to want to return the favor.. especially if she's already toyed with the idea of messing around with a girl. Anyway, after the first threesome experience (assuming she enjoys herself, which she should as long as the 2nd guy isn't a dumbass), take her to a clothing optional swingers party (just look on SLS.com in your area: http://www.swinglifestyle.com/swinger/party/ ). Hotel take-overs are the best. There, you can either hook up with another couple, or, if you don't find any other couples suitable, have sex in public. After that, threesomes with other girls shouldn't be a big deal.

At least, this is how I started out. YMMV.

-Wolf

_________________
Screening: drama-free-relationships-1-screening-vt124827.html
Bad Behavior: drama-free-relationships-3-the-soft-next-vt125554.html

No need to have a conniption. Cool down bra. I'll render my critique of your approach later today if I have the time, but it does have something to with the over-reliance of evolutionary theories of human behavior in PUA. A lot of the posts I've read on here the past while cling tenaciously to such theories (e.g., the "provider", Alpha males, fitness cues etc.), and while these theories do offer a great deal of insight into human behavior they are by no means the end-all-be-all reasons behind why we act the way we do (I blame Mystery for this as he was one of the first to use/misuse evolutionary theory for the sake PU).

To dichotomize a type of behavior (e.g., "protector", "lover") as the means to eliciting a particular emotion or 'set' of emotional responses from women, or any person for that matter is terribly misguided and indicative of somebody who doesn't really understand the dynamic and complicated nature of human behavior.

I guess anybody who disagrees with you online these days can be passed off as a "hater". I just find it silly when people try to offer exceedingly simple ways of acting (such as with the use of frames, or invoking a type of behavior) to get what they want from others. The behaviorists, led by Skinner proved themselves wrong (although their contribution to psychology has been immense).

Ah....if life were only so simple.

Thanks for advice!

I did offered her to have a threesome with me and other guy but she refused.....she was like "what if I will start having feelings for other dude blah blah blah".

Sorry to bump this up but I have a question

Can you both talk confidently about sex AND provide? For our first few official dates (both cinema, but we've hung out between those times) I've arrived a little earlier so I've gone in and bought the tickets before shes arrived, usually she then buys the popcorn/drinks. But then i'll joke about sex and talk about it, showing i'm not "afraid" of it and i'm confident when it comes to having it.

Just curious if doing that type of thing is okay, of whether that puts me into the provider category.