So I met an HB10 for coffee, we split paid separately. Then we walked around, built rapport and I proposed we get gellato. This is where I got super indecisive. The man at the cash register asked if we were paying together or separately. This is where my PUA knowledge (hey I'm still a noob) messed me up. I couldn't decide if I should pay for her (David DeAngelo: NEVER PAY FOR ANYTHING) or not to pay for her (Sinn: Be a man and pay for dates). I hesitated and she went ahead and said we were going to split.
Before this had happened she had brought up what we were going to do the next time, but now she isn't replying to my texts. Before I learned PUA I was always very decisive about paying for dates. Now I just want to shoot myself.

Most PUA is garbage made by hacks who rarely if at all hookup with the caliber of women they purport to date.

Next time to with your gut. If its a first date and I like the girl I pay as a general rule. Some women will find it quite insulting if you don't pay now and then, Particularly on the first date.

There are times to pay and times to not and they depend on the circumstances. Both DD and Sinn are correct because they are referring to different circumstances.

You don't pay if.....

1/ They ask you to buy them a drink and you've just met (you're being tooled)
2/ You've approached and the interaction is going flat (They see it as you "buying" your attention)
3/ There's another guy eyeing up your sarge nearby (they want you gone for 10 mins so the other guy can approach)

You do pay if....
1/ You've already gained rapport and preferably "bounced" to another venue. (the attraction is there)
2/ Your showing decisiveness as a DHV (it's no big deal to you; provider model)
3/ They've already bought you a drink themselves.
4/ Someone has stolen their purse ( you have a healthy psychology; Protector model)

Hope that makes sense

I no longer pay for the first date, the second date is 50/50, and the third date is pretty much always a yes.

A girl can look at you in three ways, generally she has friends, lovers, and providers.

You do not want to be seen as the potential provider, you want to be her lover. If you pay, you look needy, she will stick you into the potential boyfriend category, which may sound good, but it isn't. If she looks at you this way, she is more likely to withhold sex from you for a while, and guess what? That leaves the door open for some guy to actually become her lover.

The lover of the girl knows how to turn on her emotions, something that is rare among guys.

The provider knows how to give her things, which isn't something limited to you, almost any guy can pay for a date.

Keep it a mystery with her, don't pay on the first date, and you will be looked at as a lover and not a provider.

A lot of early PUA crap said for the guy not to pay or split is because most of them were broke so needed some excuse to justify to themselves why they are trying not to pay. You pay on a first date because you don't give a shit about a few bucks. Not much can be less alpha than making even the slightest issue about a few bucks at a freaking coffee shop? LOL. You should never hear from this girl again and you deserve it.

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Sounds as though you're been sipping the PUA koolaid. I'm going to hazard a guess in thinking you haven't had much experience with women. While there is no hard and fast rule when it comes to deciding on whether to pay for your date, it is worth weighing the following perspectives (I've taken these from 3 very close female friends who have had their share of experiences with men):

Girl 1 (25 y.o.): "I m perfectly fine with the guy not paying on a first date, I can afford my own food and I m down for equal"

Girl 2 (28 y.o.): "If a guy doesn't pay for the first date, I just assume that he's not interested in me and if I like him, I feel disapointed"

Girl 3 (37 y.o.): "A guy who doesn't pay for the first date is inconsiderate and doesn't deserve a 2nd [date]"

Obviously there's nothing scientific about 3 opinions from 3 very different girls. I provided this as an example that there's no clear answer. I will tell you this, I had dated a girl not too long ago (we met on pof), and our encounter went very well, however I wasn't really feeling her from the moment I saw her in person as I didn't find myself as physically attracted to her as I was to her photos. That said, when the bill came I had suggested we go dutch, at which point her tone completely changed and she fell silent on the drive home.

Look, a lot of guys are so fearful about this power dynamic thing, and its not healthy whatsoever. If you begin playing power games from the getgo, if you do get into a relationship with this person it will be a cycle that's extremely hard, if not impossible, to break. Sure, there are certain things you just don't do at any point such as act needy or whatever - you work on always improving yourself not for anyone's sake but your own and that's an extremely attractive asset to women and people in general. For myself, if I enjoy the woman's company I have no issue whatsoever to pay for her meal. Why? Because I WANT to and yea, like it or not as males we do have a script to ahere to and if I want the woman I like to feel special I have no problem buying her things, and paying for her MEALS (yes, I said MEALS as in more than one OMG!! GASP!!! JEezuz Christ I MUST BE SUCH A BETA!! Right??!!).

Come on guys, give the ego a break, stop shooting yourself in the foot and learn how to be gentlemen - yes, most women are craving a guy who will be chivalrous, in spite of all the equality bs(which isnt true at all anyway).

Well said.

Here's some food for thought.... QUIT BEING LIKE EVERY OTHER FUCKING TOOL OUT THERE AND DOING THE "COFFEE DATE!"

AVOID THE SITUATION OF HAVING TO PAY FOR WHAT SHE ORDERED!!!

Wtf? Do something FUN. Show her that there is more to you than a guy who sits around at a coffee shop, sipping on venti iced teas and listening to Alanis Morissette!

Go mini golfing. Pay for that. 6 bucks.
Go "house shopping" or "car shopping" and pretend like you are getting married in a year, looking for a house or a car, and fight with each other infront of the real estate agent or car salesman until you get to a point where you call off the marriage... first one to crack, buys the other one dinner.
Go to the aquarium or the zoo or the museum.
Go walk around down town and people watch. Make fun of what people are doing and wearing.

Fuck...

MAKE IT FUN! Don't let her think about other shit... Girls have so much stuff going through their minds... If you can be the guy who takes their mind off of things for a few hours, she will want more of that. IT'S CALLED COMFORT!!

Quit being so fucking lame, get creative, and have fun. Let her have fun with you.

Dude, PUA is not a scientific reality to be installed in your brain and to follow to the "T". All PUA should do is put you in a position of power where you feel like you are doing whatever is right for you. You want to self empower.

None of it is meant to be followed like a strict manual. You should take the advice and apply it to your own needs. There are not real "rules", just what each PUA has found to be most effective to him. What works for Sinn, or what works for David D, may not work for you, at least not all of it.

You need to read all these different styles and come up with your own approach, and find things that work for you. It's kind of like figuring out how you want to make money in life. If you spend the majority of your time trying to be something your not, you'll never make money. But if you focus in on the things that you know you are good at, you will succeed. Find the one or two or three things that you are REALLY good at, and that work for you, and apply those in your daily life.

And don't interrupt your normal flow, just keep all the PUA stuff in the back burner and access it as you see fit. It is by no means 100% truth.

http://www.datingreviewspy.com

Do you realize there is a difference between what a girl thinks she wants and what she ACTUALLY wants?

I am in college, so I am not really interested in 37 year old women. Generally women that age are looking for someone to marry... i.e. a provider. So it makes sense that older women would prefer the guy paying on the date.

A girl may say she wants to be wined and dined by some nice guy, but notice, that every guy who uses these nice guy tactics almost always gets friend zoned. Girls don't want nice guys, they want guys with an edge.

Obviously it would be very beta for someone to make a gripe about two bucks with a girl, but I have never had this problem. The girl usually tries to pay for herself, and a couple times I have even had her pay me for the date.

There have only been a couple times where it was somewhat in question as to who would pay, and I always give the honest explanation- that a relationship needs mutual investment.

What does paying do? It creates an imbalance of the investments- she is getting what she wants, but are you getting what you want?

This is the old Diamonds and Gold analogy. The girls prefer diamonds (all the gifts, dates, cuddling, etc.) while guys prefer the gold (sex). If she is getting what she wants, and you aren't getting what you want, you have created an imbalance in the relationship, and she's winning. Girls have no problem putting you on the backburner, they usually have several backburner guys at any one time.

If you have already had sex with her then paying shouldn't be an issue- do it. She gave you gold, now you can give her diamonds.
If you haven't had sex with her, then I would suggest not paying, just do something cheap, like fastfood or a local place.
If you have made out with her only, then you are in a gray area. Generally I still would lean toward not paying.



This is really not even about paying for the date, it is about investment. You want to make sure you are never investing more in her than she is in you. If she does something kind for you, you can meet her. Notice most really good friendships also have very equal levels of investment

You will laugh at your responses here in 5 years. You are getting girls despite not paying, not because of it. You are getting away with it because college girls are, generally, clueless and college game is all about getting drunk together and making moves. WTF is a date in college anyways? I don't think I ever took a girl out on a date in college, I just went caveman at frat parties and a "date" would be come over to my place. That game works in a limited environment (college). When you graduate to the real world, you will see that not paying, taking a girl out to taco bell, etc. will only make you come off as a cheap loser, not an alpha male. In the real world, alpha is a lot more than being an arrogant cocky punk. To alpha males in the real world, the cost of dinner is hardly an "investment." What alpha male gets his panties in a bunch spending $50?

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http://www.joshsway.com -- dating, online dating, fitness, fashion, and more...

The fallacy in your thinking is that its dichotomous. Your thinking is too dogmatic, but also indicative of somebody young and inexperienced, couched in PUA ideas you will be greatly served in dropping them as they wont get you very far. A guy can be both provider and lover, as is generally the case in a healthy relationship. You also missed the point of my post, so I urge you to re-read it as I was merely providing different perspectives on the issue 'to pay or not to pay'. As the poster above indicated, college girls are typically in an exploratory stage, trying on different personas, beginning to come into their own but mostly have no idea what excatly they want in a relationship, other than to "have fun".

You will see, as you mature that not paying will more often than not equate to no more dates for you. Its not about materialism, but rather about being the man. But if its a romp in the hay that you seek, then just go to a club and have a one night stand. Picking up girls in a club is like bobbing for apples, they're already primed for action and waiting for the right bait.

A cautionary word, if you believe that a relationship should always be tit for tat (yea, i said "tit"), then you have another thing coming. What will happen is you'll begin keeping a mental rolodex of who did what when, and invetibly you'll end up feeling short changed and reactive (taken advantage of) because 'giving' looks like different things to different people (e.g., a woman may give her affections for doing something nice for her, which to you may be a given and not really noticed). Relationships aren't bank accounts, or T ledgers, and if you think they are you'll constantly feel short changed and will find unease, discontent, and dissafisfied in them.

I'm the OP and this all makes me feel sick to the stomach. I'm not a cheapskate person (nothing wrong with that necessarily I have plenty of friends that are penny pinchers), and I'm actually fairly loose with my money. I've always paid in the past and I've heard enough female friends say it's a deal breaker for them. Plus I game 3-4 days a week and I meet a hb7 maybe once a month, nothing to speak of a hb10. Oh and this chick is a relatively famous tv actress and former model. Shoot me now.

Lessen learned. Just pay next time.

Well said.

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