Okay, so I started getting IOIs from a girl at work. Now, she's the MBA kind of girl obsessed with her career, looking down on men all the time, and has mostly dated losers.

I take her out, ignore all kinds of shit tests and then she comes home for a drink. I make a move on her, she goes no, we're not dating, I'm gonna be your wingwoman (haven't mentioned the game or anything to her) etc. I sit her down on my lap as she shows me some standup comedy on youtube. Kiss her neck a bit, shoulder, etc, she constantly giggles noooo and turns my head towards the screen etc. At some other point we get up, she pours us both more drinks and I try to kiss her and she gives me a passionate kiss out of the blue, biting my lip, etc. Her parents were visiting her at home so she couldn't say, had to go.

Next day at work we keep texting each other flirty sexy stuff. We go out again the next day and again the next. She had her parents visiting her so she couldn't spend much time with me or stay at my place. Make out, touching, but she keeps saying she doesn't like the fact that we work together and that I'm planning to move out of town (had told her that before).

Then after a few days we go out again after work at a bar next to the office. She lets me put my hand anywhere on her as long as it can't be seen. No kiss because she doesn't want anyone from any other company to see us kissing in case she goes to work for that other company in the future. No kidding. She actually said that. I considered it a bit silly so I push a bit further. She resists.

This started fucking up my frame to a needy one, leaning into her, etc. Starts building up a defensive stance and a no ladder. When we leave I walk her to the train station (though I wouldn't take the train) and go for a kiss. She again kisses me relatively passionately and at some point backs of and starts the I can't do this, lets just be friends, I can't give you the attention you need at the moment, I'm leading you onto something that's not there, you're only seeing a 10% of me at the moment and not the full me, and things like that. Wow. So basically stuff that I've literally never heard before in my life. Talk about giving off the wrong vibe.

I sort of try to save it like who said I need attention, its my fault, I pushed you and made you defensive, etc.

After a couple of days we still exchange flirty texts at work but with reduced frequency and intensity. I feel she is trying to turn me into an orbiter. She tells me things such as "like my facebook status" etc. I ask her on a coffee break and she invites a bunch of geeky chodes as well. She sort of avoids leaving together with me at the end of day, though the flirt, teasing and cocky funnyness are not off but also not the same as before. At one moment I'll be telling her I'm hungry and she'll be whispering care a bite? And the next she'll be making comments about my ego.

What do you guys say? Freeze-out and try again? Forget it? Anything? Apart from the glaring mistake of not respecting her boundaries and pushing giving her bad emotions and making me appear needy and whatnot, any other major mistake not to be repeated?

Thanks in advance guys!

P.S: Yes, I know about not gaming at work but its a shitty place with a bunch of chodes, geeks and drooling 40+ year olds that try to AMOG each other and everyone else in front of the few women that are there. And if you haven't guessed already, its in the financial industry. So I couldn't care less if they fire me. They'll be doing me a huge favor if I don't beat them to it.

No idea. She's a serious head case, getting somewhat busy with you but then refusing.

Ahem... flatly disagree with bvanevery.

You figured it well - you pushed her for a kiss when she said no, and was already letting you put your hand "anywhere" as long as it can't be seen, which, to me, under the table, leaves a lot of options...

Secondly, when she rejected your push for a kiss, this would have been fine, if you hadn't become needy. THAT'S what did it. That's it. Everything else you had been doing was fine.

Women have evolved to look for things that can't be faked. Or look for weaknesses that are always indicative of something bigger. Once she's seen you display a certain type of behaviour, she will see everything you do in a different light. The fact that she STILL kissed you passionately at the train station after the needy bit, shows just how well you'd done before then - but she caught herself and remembered how you acted needy, and told you "you want something more", etc. etc.

Also that little speech about "You're only seeing 10% of me, most men don't understand me, etc. etc." is given by women who have fought their way to the top and deserve to be there, but are also harbouring a little insecurity somewhere. Nothing really wrong with that. Everyone does have something, but more stable women don't say things that make themselves out to be some enigma that most people don't get. Just a little observation, and nothing that should change your view of her if you already like her. Just a heads up, if you were to ever get close, she may confide in you one day and you'd have to be very supportive in that moment.

This girl seems to like to "game"... and that's cool - you just show her you don't play her game. And then you win. Which is why she passionately kissed you at the end of the first night, when she kept turning your head back to the screen and saying "I'm not your date". You ignored all that and just behaved your own way.

But now, yes, she's making you an orbiter. That's how she does her game. She's a person who has got where she is by knowing how to affect what people, and make sure she appears popular. Nothing wrong with that, it's a valid approach to life.

Now that you've displayed the needyness, she can't treat you the way she used to. But it was still good. So she likes you enough to keep you around, as a friend. And, while you're there, you may as well help her look good, eg. she asks you to click "like" on her Facebook status. (More stable women wouldn't use this tactic though) She has learned this behaviour because it worked, guys who were bugging her, turned out to at least have a use. If you comply with this, you'll end up lumped with that lot.

This is a rare situation where you've found a girl that actually likes to "game". So... DHV, freeze out, neg, etc. etc. all those traditional tactics will work.

But, as always, don't be an ass. Don't be arrogant. Be confident. Be the better man, be the gentleman.

Since you work with her, and she's still in contact with you, but she's playing with you like a cat and ball, trying to make you an orbiter, you have PLENTY of opportunities to surprise her with your responses. Stay true to yourself - don't reply negatively. Choose a frame and stick with it. Your consistancy will win huge points, and mainly, all you have to do is make sure you don't do anything that would lump you in with the "losers" she's dated.

The fact that she's only dated "losers" does say even more about her lack of stability. She will respond very well to traditional PUA tactics. Just always be a gentleman about it, don't be an ass.

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Wow, thank you both for your replies. Conker, I really appreciate the detailed analysis.

I just remembered that I had also told her I was thinking about her on the weekend, after she kept refusing and telling me she's not gonna be my friend with benefits (because she knows I'm looking for a new job out of town). Just to add to the needyness.

At some point the next day she said something about her mom telling her that she's stubborn and inflexible and doesnt get the right guys or something and that I would definitely agree with her mom and I went yes, you're stubborn, opinionated, plunge into things you know nothing about, think you don't need anyone, etc, etc, etc, do you know how rare it is to find a girl that is so much fun and interesting? To which she laughed saying all girls are like this and i just said bullshit and she just kept laughing.

I didn't like her facebook status when she asked me to, I just said something along the lines of I like you babe not your status. I also stopped replying to her texts when they are about random chit chat but I do talk to her at work or if she tells me she feels troubled about work (just for support, no dependencies between our jobs).

There is actually some restructuring going on and she told me something like "i definitely need to change my title by the end of the year, we need to have a strategy meeting watson". Watson???? Jesus Christ! To which I said something like the only title I can help you change is that of single to its complicated and above. To which she reacted quite positively.

I'm not sure what my overall strategy should be though. Keep doing this or try a more complete freeze-out? And for how long? How would I transition back to the previous stage of sexual talk, going out together, etc? She's having a charity run in a few days and she'll probably ask me if I'm gonna go. I was thinking of saying something if you want me to support you I'll come but you have to prove to me that you really want me there and then go for a kiss or something. Too soon? Too needy again?

Okay, so I'm beginning to realize that I don't really know how to do a proper freeze-out without it seeming like sulking.

And I've also lost another girl in the past which was kind of like her. Basically, the independent dynamic type that will start off relatively sweet and then give you a bunch of shit tests. And she was also dating a loser and was telling me of how she wanted a real man. And then more shit tests which I failed.

I've noticed that after we've sort of established that we're both interested in each other, I don't do well with freeze-outs and shit tests. Before this stage I can do it but after, it sort of feels like sulking and like going backwards. And also like punishing good behavior (like if she just wants to talk or invites me to hang out with some of her chode friends). Any tips on how to handle these things? Is what I wrote in my previous message even considered a freeze-out or should I just stop all conversation and start ignoring her? How do I revert back then? Does time usually work to my advantage in these situations or is it that the more time we're in this mode, the more momentum we lose and the less interested she'll become?


Thx!

Those are really good questions, also it's getting to the point where it's going to be really hard to give you direct advice because a lot of little things are going on that only you can watch out for and choose a correct response to.

So far it sounds like you're doing really well in general.

Yes, good question about the freeze outs. An all out shut down may appear like sulking if you don't frame it right. If something requires a response, you should give one. It's how you give it that determines the "freeze out". If she actually needs to be punished for bad behaviour, then the response should be a bit like you're trying to avoid conversation and have better things to do. She will start wondering if she should feel guilty and want to press for more information. If the freeze out is to resurrect an awkward situation that was probably your fault, it should be more neutral - give compliments where they're due, respond to niceties, but don't actively start conversation or propose a meet up. She will start to miss you (if she likes you that much) and make efforts to get in contact again.

And yes you always want to reward good behaviour and punish bad behaviour, all the while. If it's a freeze out, and she's done something wrong, you could gradually let her feel like she's making up for it. If it's a freeze out to diffuse an awkward situation, you could gradually let her feel like she's sparking interest again.

Once you've decided how you should be framing the freeze out, make sure you do the following;

Handle the shit tests. If you're always focusing on standing out from other guys and being the best "you" you can be, you can do this.

As for the charity, sometimes you can turn her down for something else you actually happen to be doing (for real), and say you're honestly busy, explain what it is, but thanks for the invite and wish her good luck with it or have a good time or what ever is appropriate. However, if she's clearly making an effort to get your attention, then you should intend on going. But first you have to play a bit of a game. You need a phone call to talk about the event and express some interest in your tone of voice and get her to convince you it'll be really worthwhile - genuinely though, don't be all cocky about it, she won't like being treated like that when she's going out on a limb, it will hurt and she will shut down. You can potentially have this conversation via text too, but it's better on the phone. I think your situation is probably the latter, and you had the right idea but your exact course of action seems like it could be a bit needy. Something like what I described would be better. Just call and ask for more details about what this thing is. Or talk at work if that's an option in your situation, that would be much better still. As for going for a kiss, can't say.

Overall, decide on a frame for who you are, how you'll apply the freeze out, handle the shit tests, ask questions about this charity thing to see if she'll go to an effort to get you interested, and if you're doing all that, you can just do your usual flirts and innuendo to keep things sexual, or make them more sexual if they weren't.

And to answer your question, yes a complete and total freeze out would eventually lose your momentum with each other. But if she liked you enough she'd be willing to start from scratch one day when you both got in contact again, if her circumstances hadn't changed and she's seeing someone else.

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Thanks again Conker for your advice. We've been playing this game for a while now and I'm thinking of giving up since it doesn't appear to lead anywhere. I've basically continued on the same path as my last messages, standing out, being the better man, etc while not chasing after her and setting the right frame. Initially, it seemed to have worked and we started having similar flirty talk.

Then I proposed a meetup, she was busy and she didn't propose an alternative date. I was like ok, this is where you propose an alternative if you also want to see me. She took a totally dominant frame like: as friends, maybe you can drop by XXXX (her area) and we can catch a movie? sounds good?. Now, I didn't want to travel all the way to where she lives and I was really annoyed by the change of frame. Not to mention that I had other plans later on at the other part of town. So I answered something like: nope, not good. first of all, i'm not gonna lure you to a date as friends and then totally hit on you and second i got plans afterwards, blah blah blah.

This sort of set things right again, and after a couple of days we resumed the flirty talk. I didn't propose to meet up right away but kept at it, plus some late night phone calls and what are you wearing type of questions. Then I do propose to meet again, I mean wtf! To come and cook something together at my place. Maybe too much? And again she says she's busy and doesn't propose an alternative (she always did on the first times we went out together).

So I was like fine and just did a freeze-out for the whole day. Which she kind of got and was always trying to get my attention and talk to me and I would give responses but as you said, like I had something better to do and didn't want to drag on the conversation (but not abrupt or rude or anything). Then at the end of the day after work she goes to a nearby bar with some chodes from the office. I walk outside and she shouts my name from the terrace, I don't turn and she gets up, gets out and runs after me to invite me in. I didn't go because a) I wanted to do daygame b) I was really in my head at the time and c) didn't want to spend time with chodes trying to AMOG each other. After a few hours I remembered I might have punished her good behavior so I texted her something like thanks for coming outside the bar to get me, it was a sweet thing to do.

So, generally, I think I'm doing OK maintaining a good frame but it seems things fall back to square one every time I ask her to meet.

Apart from becoming a great lesson on how needyness can screw things up, I don't see how else this situation may become better or more useful. Unless I'm missing something? Like some super secret PUA technique to turn things around? :p

Any comments or feedback will be much appreciated!

Thanks again!

Also, she now sometimes doesn't reply after an overly suggestive / sexual text. Is this just her shutoff valve when she's gotten all the validation she wanted but don't want to go any further or some sort of shit-test?

I won't rebut Conker's posts. Agree with those posts as I skimmed them but

I think you made a mistake somewhere earlier in the game...and then it led to a downward spiral. I like to fix things from their cause...and don't concentrate too much on fixing the issues created by the cause ie, the things you are experiencing now and trying to turn around with some "SUPER SECRET PUA technique"...which I must say doesn't really exist...

I think your original issue was from the first day or 2nd day that you had her turn your head towards the computer YOU EVEN HAD HER IN YOUR LAP and you persisted and ended up with kisses and such...but didn't get a base.

Do you think you could have done something to get her in the mood for what guys want asap?

Not sure how you ended up on a computer...(your house or her's?, (think it was urs)...

Think about this now...

You got a girl to come over your house.
You got her to sit on your LAP.
You got her to watch some funny videos on youtube.
You got yourself to kiss her.

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1. I would say if a girl is over my house, she wants something.
...ex. you wanted to show her a video, and she accepted to come over to watch it...real thing is...the video is more or so an excuse to come over your house...that's how I think of it.

Am I somewhat portraying what should have happened that night?
If there was some resistance, you needed to take it a small notch lower, and try going down the list of things to get her in the state of "have the fun of a lifetime tonight."

She was on your lap, on the computer. You kissed her neck...where were your hands?? On her shoulder? (Wrong move)...they should have been around her side, holding her firmly.

Kissed her cheek...where was your hand? should be around her side above her hip, or around her and on her stomach, just letting her feel the warmth of your hands.

Kiss on the neck...was it abrupt? How about letting her feel the warmth of your breath next time, let some anticipation build up. Go slow. What were you saying/what was she saying? Or was she laughing (due to the video)?

Most people when they laugh, they jump up and down...they move their seat around, or body, adjust their height to breath better...just in laughing, your hands should be feeling many parts of her. Keep your hands in one place, but she will naturally move around and adjust so that you feel more, and she feels more.

Watch her REACTION. You got a REACTION..."where she turned your head to the screen and so on..."...a girl doesn't do that unless she feels something/wants something and can't just give it because that'll seem "needy" to her too.

From the neck kissing...where did your face endup? The best place, is to travel up her neck, to her ear and while doing this move your hands in front of her but still on her. And move your head/face right next to her as if you are just hugging. Your cheek should have been touching hers. And you should not say a word while this is going on. Just stay. She will initiate, usually, she'll move her head to the right or left and your lips will get closer. And closer, and you just kiss. But you don't move ur face. She'll move. And then like I said WATCH her reaction and move your hand slowly under her shirt. While kissing. If she puts up resistance, back up a little, don't move your hand at all (the one under her shirt) and instead get her attention on your other hand that is going to move up and slightly push her face into yours, and your mouth. Slow it down, and then reinitate the movement of your other hand so on...

BASICALLY That was where I saw the mistake. You had her on your lap, and you missed the chance.

Take a chance...try to get further, if she resists, step back then slowly proceed again.

I concentrate on the cause of the problems, so you won't have to go off figuring out xyz because you escalated to quickly, or didn't escalate enough.

I have 2 thoughts in my head, that I just stick to.

1. If a girl has me at their house, or if a girl is in my house, all you need is to escalate correctly, push and pull sexually, and I guess SHOW her that she can be totally safe and secure, and can stop whenever she wants, while having fun on a roller-coaster.
2. Have fun, by touching. I didn't get enough hugs or something when I was younger, don't know, but I like touching...as much as a baby does...all they have is their hands...that is all you need to get someone in a state.

------
If her hand was on the computer mouse...(AS I TESTED ALL THE WAY FROM Freshman High School (6-7 years ago) you should put your hand right on top of hers and lead the way. Have your arms touch eachothers, have your breath on her neck while you hold her hand and chose a video and so on. I don't know why but the hand just works...in making her feel secure, and content, safe and yet overwhelmed.

-----

She mentioned that she could be your wingwomen...PERFECT...you just needed to show her what you can offer her sometimes too. Right there I would have known that what would make her qualify, as to whether she can be your wingwomen is that she must be good at sex.

What was your reply when she said that? (I AM SURE) that it was most likely NOT a reply that you are content with now...
--------------
To shorten this post...(because I know I get off track on these forums)

1. You had her on your lap, in a room.(Good)
2. You got to the kissing.(good)
3. You didn't get your hand in her shirt.(bad)
4. You didn't back off a little, and start to escalate in kino again towards the same ultimate goal.(kind of)... you did but kissing immediately wasn't the way to do it...should be doing something with your hands AT ALL TIMES.


Feel free to try and pickup from the low point, it's "harder" I guess...but I think if you just figured how to break the tension, and create it again, and make her more susceptible to doing it with you on that computer seat...and did get her undressed and bowing to the performance she put up for you, it might have been more fun

-----
Some girls want romance. Some guys have bromance. In my biology class last week this girl and I created somance...had a great conversation with her during class on a piece of paper and that's what we came up with.

Somance? Some Romance. And It's what we have...Feelings and sex when we want it, how we want it, and wherever we want it.

Make touching a 2nd nature. Speak more with your actions than your words. If touching was going correctly from the moment she was in a room with you, there wouldn't have really been much resistance and thus you would have most likely have made her night one to remember.

----
I think you had all those chances that she gave you to redeem yourself and have sex...(everytime you were in a room, in a house or apartment alone)...it makes sense that now she will forget it, because you didn't give her the emotional satisfaction she wanted from day 1.

That's all I can say. Have fun...and YES touching a girl in places others don't is fun for them.

Hey nmuir, haven't been here in ages.

You got it - it's mainly just a lesson not to be needy and there's not much you can expect. Feels like crap, I know - but if it didn't feel like crap you wouldn't learn from it. Remember to tell yourself that when it happens.

Basically when you mess up in this way, there's no point "trying to go back", it just makes things worse. All you can do is leave it neutral - don't ignore her efforts to contact you but stop contacting her yourself and move on. Best case she will eventually remember the good times and next time you see her she'll hope that you've improved since last time. But that's it really. It's kind of a 5% chance thing which you would throw away if you kept trying to pursue her.

In your case there might be more of a chance, seems like you guys had something pretty strong (passionately) but the only course of action is what I described.

Anyway it's been a few months, would be interesting to see what you've been up to on this story since then.

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And I didn't even see this the date mark on the last post...WOOPS.

Hehe.

Hi guys,

Since Conker mentioned he's curious and since lagron wrote such a detailed reply, I thought I'd wrap things up.

Things went from bad to worse regarding this one, she was acting all weird at work, had weeks where she'd just ignore me or try to marginalize me, when I reacted in a very professional WTF kind of way, I need information for the project, etc, she would be all mellow again for a few weeks, she would giggle, I'd call her nicknames etc, then again complete shutoff.

Maybe it was some weird ass instinctive qualification, shit testing, redeeming kind of thing but in the mean time, I had met so many women going out 3 nights a week and also doing day game that I really couldn't care less.

This was really the cause of a scarcity induced situation, having just gone out of a long term relationship. It would have been good if it just worked but it was definitely not worth the extra investment and effort to fix things and deal with this weirdness. I mean, we all make mistakes, and there are many high value girls out there that don't treat sex or relationships as a space shuttle launch with one "wrong" move in their book and you're out. Only people living in fantasy land expect someone to be "juuuust puurrrfect"

What the hell was wrong with me becoming so obsessed I have no idea. Actually I do. Scarcity. In the months that followed I met some amazing women, got a new long term relationship and I still have some momentum, i.e. get random messages from women I met wondering where I've been.

Thanks all you guys for the support here! I seriously appreciate it! Both this situation and the insightful comments of everyone were part of a learning experience that helped me get back on my feet

Take care!

You need to learn the important of discretion and being secret.

If she outright tells you DONT KISS ME HERE IN FRONT OF PEOPLE, why the fuck do you persist and try?
You have showed her that you dont respect her image/status/reputation.

The moment you show her this, she will never do anymore with you.

She will be afraid that you fuck up her reputation. Trust me, a girl's reputation is EVERYTHING to them.

Remember this next time

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nmuir, was very interesting reading your progress, good to hear it! Very good point about meeting other girls who are not all like "one wrong move and that's it, must be useless" those are the very superficial types, and that fits her behaviour with liking to keep all those orbiters around.

I know girls who are at the other end of the scale with that, always seeing the good in people, knowing that people make mistakes, this includes guys dating and making moves, they are very special girls.

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