This is an extract of one of the best advices from the book Models by Mark Mason:

The book repeats almost the same advice over and over again but there's some good things like this:

The investment paradox: is the apparent conflict between the two aspects of female
attraction. Women are attracted to men who are of higher status than
themselves (or in our terms, less needy). They are also aroused by
men who desire them. The paradox is that typically, if a man shows
desire towards a woman, then he’s also showing some degree of
neediness or that he’s lower status than she is, thus making himself
unattractive.
The common term for this is “putting her on a pedestal.”


The biggest criticism of showing interest to a woman that you want
to be with is that it immediately shows you as highly invested in her
responses. When you say, “You’re cute and I wanted to meet you,”
that translates roughly to, “Hi, I want to be with you and am
officially invested in the prospect of it happening.”
What they miss though is the sub-communication going on
underneath what’s actually being said.
The sub-communication is, “I’m totally OK with the idea of you
rejecting me, otherwise I would not be approaching you in this
manner. Therefore I'm comfortable with myself and my prospects.”
Think about it, if a guy wasn’t comfortable with the prospect of a
woman rejecting him, he wouldn’t have been honest in the first
place. In fact, he would have pretended that he wasn’t actually
interested in her!
The fact that he honestly approached her with his intentions, that he
put his nuts on the chopping block and made himself vulnerable to
her immediately, actually sub-communicates a non-neediness and an
attractiveness in itself. And on top of that it shows desire for her,
which is going to trigger her arousal.

In conclusion: Honestly demonstrating your interest in
a woman short-circuits this issue. It’s a loophole in the investment
paradox.

A very interesting point behind the power of the direct approach.

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Absolutely 100% agree but you are missing part of it..... The reason direct works is because of your self-confidence and high self-esteem, just like the reason every other pick up technique, it works because of your confidence in that technique (the value you assign it that it will work with practice). People think Mystery method, gambler, or whatever other technique is what gives them the special powers to get the girl, it's 100% not the technique sure some of them have their value but it isn't your bull shit magic trick that is attractive, it's your confidence, it's not your "kino" it's your confidence during your kino.

It's not a bad thing to openly admit interest as long as you don't put off a needy vibe. Vulnerability is an awesome thing to have when it comes to courtship (regardless of what others may think). Think about all the submissive signals sent throughout courtship.

Women love a man that desires her sexually but hate a guy that needs her around, irony right? Don't want to be treated like a piece of meat but want to be desired as one. It turns them on, it's why cieran's shock and awe is so powerful.

Yesterday there was a woman who I was chatting with, there is attraction on both sides, I flirt with her a bit when she comes into my work. I was very direct with her(not sexually since I was at work), at some point I told her confidently and directly "well I have a huge crush on you, what do you want?" I made eye contact smiled and she stepped to me, almost kissed her right then (at work).

Her Response: "Stop it your going to make me blush."

Now once upon a time when I was young and dumb I told a woman this EXACT line. While there was a nervous energy coming from me, a scared, "oh my god, what's she's gonna say?" energy. This girl looked at me like I was a creepy douche bag because it was coming from a needy behavior.

It's not what you say it's how you say it (of course being aware of the woman you are interacting with).... I can say the craziest shit to a lot of girls and they love it, the me of history not so much... Confidence is the key to everything not tactics, direct is my favorite type of game now-a-days.

Peace and Love,

Vic

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Exactly. The main reason M3 was so successful was the confidence it gave new guys to have a script and structure to follow in an interaction. It didn't matter what they were saying it was how they were saying it.

Also Mystery Method used indirect opener so that guys with low self esteem didn't come off as needy.

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I disagree.

Confidence is pleasant and yes that is attractive, but if you tell a girl you like her i don't think its going to work often. In fact, I dated a girl once and she hated when I complimented her, but the thing is HB her this all the time. Most of the Ladies Men I know were confident and that made it pleasant to be around them but they also had a quality that kind of just screamed "I am cool." It was a certain style. Swagger.

Its not all confidence guys. That's fools gold. Its confidence applied properly.

The purpose of the mystery method opener was to use an opinion to disarm people and in a way turn the tables by allowing you to evaluate the opinion of the girl. She now starts thinking is this right, does that sound right. She wants your approval. The negs knocks the hb off her pedestal and can make you seem like you have a lot of value. Your stories convey value and elicit pleasant emotions. Qualifying tells the girl you may be interested. At some point you seem so cool that the girl now wants you. Its a strategy.

Two features that are held in the top 5 of every poll on what a man's most attractive features(by women) are Confidence and sense of humor. With that and some escalation skills that is all you need to pick up women, you won't pick up every woman but you will pick up a much higher percentage than the average joe.

I use to agree with you, after a lot more experience I completely disagree. I use to be all about indirect and it has it's place when you need to build attraction and there is no initial attraction.... The overall goal should be to be a responsive man(respond at her response curve which is generally faster than you realize) but keep in mind cieran's shock and awe is one of the most powerful techniques you'll ever come across and all you need is self-confidence to go with it. It works with like 70% of available women as long as you know how to apply it properly, too many guys think the holy grail is taking the long route... that is bull shit.

Direct is best when you know how to use it.

In a relationship I have a feeling you don't know how to compliment a woman in the manner we are discussing.

What kind of of compliments were you granting her?

How were you saying these compliments?

Did you do them during the proper time period?

For instance if I was dating a woman I might walk up to her and say "damn doll, you are so sexy, you just look delicious, I can't wait to make you cum tonight. I'm going to make you come so much.... You are going to cum so hard for me."

Now if you are saying the compliments from a needy standpoint things change, they lose value. If you need help learning to grant a good compliment I can help with that. The key to a good compliment isn't the statement but the authenticity and WHY behind it....

"Damn you look good doll, that dress makes you look so damn sexy. I can't wait to eat you up."

Where the compliments come from matters WAY more than the compliment when it comes to it being a good compliment. Most men have NO CLUE how to give a good compliment, they think things like "you look cute", "your beautiful", or "pretty eyes" are compliments, they aren't good compliments they are shitty compliments that lack vulnerability a necessary asset when it comes actually building something with a woman.

You aren't coming from the high value we are talking about.... You don't need to knock any woman off a pedestal and you need to stop putting her on one there is a difference.

Look at it from a charisma standpoint, charisma is about you raising people up to your level, the only way this can happen is if you already up.

If a woman is bitchy and stuck up I simply don't deal with her, why the fuck should I? If I have to insult a woman to fuck her I want NO part of her.

Playful negs are fine but negs to knock some woman off her pedestal are not effective.

The woman I did that to was a very sexy woman that gets a lot of positive attention. It's not as if she hasn't heard your gorgeous before, or any of that, or I like you, it simply was how I said it.

How you say it matters far more than what you say, I learned that when I began studying body language. It isn't like this is news.

I can sum it up with this statement:

Women Love being desired but hate being needed.

Don't compliment a woman because you need something out of it, make it simply something you do because you want to not because you want to impress her. It's not about that.

Just my thoughts... on your rebuttal (I have a feeling you are a bit inexperienced).

Peace and Love,

Vic

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Your response is very defensive and personal. ("I'm inexperienced", "I need help complimenting"). You make the posts about me and not about the validity of my points. I noticed some of your other posts. You need to work on respect because you come off as condescending. However, I don't know you personally and you don't know me. Keep my credibility out of your mouth.

Confidence and a sense of humor is all you need to attract a girl is very vague. That is very vague advice. I'm not all about indirect or direct. I am about strategy. And the Mystery Method is a good strategy. With a good strategy you should attract everyone, girls that are available and girls with boyfriends.

A neg isn't an insult, but a neg brings a stuck up girl back to reality. You do it because she's hot...

I see no difference between being needed and desired besides semantics. Desiring a girl is not going to make her crazy about you.

You compliment to make someone feel good and by making them feel good they like you.

I apologize for being condescending that isn't my goal. I was actually trying to explain it to you, Not be defensive.

Most people don't know how to compliment... I wouldn't take it personally. Why does everyone think it is insulting when I say they don't know how to compliment? I had to learn to give a good compliment too. I was offering constructive criticism, don't take what I say personally, it's not personal it is genuine insight based off of a lot of experience.

Here is a great video by Allan Pease on Complimenting that explains it way better than I did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_d3W99Hpn4

Your statement spoke from inexperience and your rebuttal was no different, the fact that you follow a system rather than get girls by being yourself speaks of your inexperience. In my opinion Mystery method is horrible, it screens your personality, the goal is to show yourself off NOT hide yourself. I have a problem with ANY method that doesn't let you be you. Yes you may need to work on yourself to be that guy, but START NOW!

Explain how confidence(a sign of status too) and sense of humor are two of the most attractive features is vague. Seems pretty concise to me- do you want a long description of each trait? Those are two traits you need to attract women consistently, that along with escalation skills are all you need to get women and appear attractive, other assets certainly help(such as learning to build rapport, money, physical attributes, etc.) but you don't need anything else to have a high success rate. Everything else is just bonus points.

Quick question, where did I say insult her????

Desiring a woman is way different than being needy.... needs are oxygen, food, shelter, etc. Desires are tvs, women, cars, etc. Note: That statement alone SHOWS ALL OF YOUR INEXPERIENCE, it shows a lack of depth of knowledge in this area, which is why it was brought up for you.

When you rely on a woman and NEED her it is obnoxious (unless you're already at that point even then there is a brink you shouldn't pass). Desiring a woman as a confident man is awesome, it's sexy, it's what women want. Women are aroused by being desired. It's why several women have rape fantasies but can't explain, they love being desired on a passionate level to the point of lost control. It's not being taken advantage of that is what they want, it is about being desired on a level that is astounding.

She loves when you whisper in her hear confidently how bad you want to fuck her, how great you are going to make her feel, that is desire. Not I need to fuck you, but I want to fuck you is how she wants to hear it. Which is why many husbands can nail their wife by saying things like "You're Sexy I want to fuck you silly", but when they tell their wife they need to put out they get snooty and say "fuck off, go masturbate."

Note: YOU CAN'T GET EVERY WOMAN! You'll never be able to, it doesn't matter how good you are, you won't avoid rejection it is absolutely asinine to think otherwise. I mentioned this because too many folks think that Mystery Method will get you every girl or any method will, NO method works with every girl. That is why I advertise confidence because the goal should be to get a girl(s) that fits with you, rather than bend yourself to every woman you come across.

I did mention that being a responsive male is necessary meaning responding to her response curve. I apologize that it wasn't a big focus in my last post but it was mentioned that sometimes when initial attraction is absent you must focus on building attraction.

Note: I highly recommend reading Models by Mark Manson, it is a great book. He does a great job of explaining a lot of things I have come to realize to be true (after years of being here), just discovered him a couple weeks ago. He destroys most bullshit PUA techniques... and rightly so, most of them are bull shit, including Mystery Method, it is a needy guys way out. Putting up a fake smoke screen so you appear attractive rather than just being attractive guy.


Peace and Love,

Vic

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

One note Mark point out about Mystery Method is how it actually works, but it's based on another you.

YOU go in and fake an opinion question.
YOU throw false time constraints.
False DHV, and so on.

It does work, and if you like it go ahead. But the problem is that you are already assuming she has more value than you and to beat that you go in and create a false YOU. One way to see it is that indirect is easier, it's a quick fix, you get the girl and get a close but in the long term if your fundamentals aren't in line you will fail in the long run. Direct is the painful but long lasting result as it's based on working on your core game.

If you visit the forum enough you will hear something like Vic's statement: "He does a great job of explaining a lot of things I have come to realize to be true" and 90% of the time they are talking about direct game. The calibration for direct game only comes from experience.

One of the biggest things I realized is the success ratio when using MM, when this ratio gets really up is at the point when you actually don't need the model any more, you have the confidence and field experience to pull girls without following the model. *It's a great model that teach a structure a step by step guide, but based on faking you are high value, the paradox here is that being honest and confidence also show high value therefore being direct represent a TRUE quality of yourself.


Success,

XF
--------------------------
NOTE:
Vic (poeticlyskuac) let's keep the discussion above the personal level, focusing in arguments & points rather than making StandUpGuy100 the topic. Stop trying to make him jump into your loop & frame about qualifying himself and avoid the "You're inexperienced", "You need help complimenting" while this might be true or not, that's not the point of this thread. Thanks in advance.

XFMAN as a Mod.

.......................................

_________________


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I think being direct risks getting dissed. Now maybe you don't care about that, but a lot of guys have egos and they just don't like that. On the other hand I know a lot of guys like the mainly quality of being direct and the chase. It's kind of all about why you are doing this. Some guys just want a little more confidence with girls.

When I was a lot younger I was heart broken. About 8 years ago. I hated it do much. I could not understand wanting someone so bad, feeling so strongly for them and then it meaning nothing. I mean wanting someone more than little kids want to wake up in the morning and open their gifts on Christmas eve. I hated it so much. I was lost and I did not know what to do. I felt broken, empty and hollow. I didn't want to work, I didn't want to go to school, I didn't want to dress up, I didn't want to work out. I was hopeless. So, I read The Game. I wanted to never feel that way again. I wanted to find someone beautiful and then seduce them and then be desperately in love with them. I mean needing them. And I wanted them to need me. I wanted to make passionate love to them 5 times a day. This has never happen.

It's called a hopeless romantic for a reason. I admit I personally don't like putting myself out there directly. It's always the girls that value you that are in love with you.

I certainly understand that, I had that feeling when I first began my journey. I even studied body language enough that I got very good at recognizing approach cues. Vulnerability is scary but a necessary part of being good with women, if you are a bit of a romantic(and I am) then you must show your vulnerability to women to get them to love you.

It is scary to put yourself out there the first few times but in reality you need to realize that you have to - Remember in The Game order to get the girl you must risk losing her.

I personally don't like the ego, and I understand what it is like to be controlled by the ego. This is my issue with it, you being paralyzed by someone elses opinion is not showing true SELF-CONFIDENCE, it shows you gaining confidence from others. I had this issue for a long time.

I am not big on robbing yourself of emotions by way of protecting yourself from others, from what I've gathered in my experiences you'll never be able to get women to love you if you aren't willing to show them yourself.

Direct is hard - it's not easy but that is what makes it so attractive to women. You are willing to walk up confidently and show your vulnerability with little attachment to the outcome of the situation, you don't need her to like you. You desire her and she loves it, your self-confidence that is independent of her appreciation for you shows high status, it shows that your value is already there. This makes you very attractive to women in my personal experiences. It's really not about you just being direct, it is also about how confident you are in your words while being direct.

Confidence is really the big key to every system(including the Mystery Method, Gambler, Gunwitch, RSD, Love Systems, etc.).

When I walk into a lot of places I'm not the most physically attractive guy, so I know the importance of illustrating attractive behaviors to get attention and then capitalizing on initial attraction by being very direct with confidence. You can also start a conversation and you need to build attraction sometimes, that may be essential before you go direct but often times your behavior during your approach is enough to allow for that attraction.

If direct was easy everyone would do it and it would work, but it isn't, it is based on you being self-confident and having a high level of self-worth. Most of the time a woman has one opinion of you to go on, and that is your own opinion of yourself. If you show her a high opinion of yourself, often times she'll agree, if you have a low opinion, she'll agree.

Peace and Love,

Vic

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

I still like opinion openers I feel that 1.) Turns the tables. it takes the spotlight off you and puts it on her. 2.)Builds Trusts. It creates trust as you feel like you kow the person because you know what they think.
Girls are horny and guys are horny. It just needs to be some coordination. People need to trust each other before they get naked. Sometimes thats all thats missing. 3.) It tends to lead to a web of conversations


The dangers of direct in my mind are trying to hard to impress, moving to fast, or being a little reckless.

A girl has to earn your love. I don't know how you do that if you are being direct. It is giving the person the job before the interview.

No, it's giving her the interview, before seeing her CV. The interview can still be over in 20 seconds if she isn't the right candidate.

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The whole idea of being direct is avoiding wasting time with girls that aren't attracted to you or ain't looking for the same thing you do.

When you do an opinion opener you just focus the conversation in a banal topic and not in you and her, later on you will reach a hook point in which she complies and tell you she likes you (IOIs, etc.), this takes around 20 mins or more guessing you are talking about creating "trust". In the other hand when you go direct you short that path to at most 5 mins in which you already know if she wants you or not.

You talk about "trust" and if you are following the M3 model that comes later on, and not in the Attraction phase in which you open, so unless you are creating your own method, the point of creating trust isn't relevant in the approach stage and can be achieved in both direct and indirect game; but yes, sometimes while being direct you might leverage kino escalation and SOI to move quicker through the attraction phase, like kissing the girl minutes before you met her, but that doesn't mean you won't need her to "trust" you in order to have sex with you.

If you are worried about trust you can always slow down and create a connection and all the emotional things you want, but that isn't exclusive of an indirect method.

I think you are missing the point of being direct, there are many levels of direct interactions, starting with "hi" and ending with something implying sex right away, so you can open direct with a simple "hi", cut the bullshit about opinion openers and get working in getting to know the girl.

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I usually can't tell how long it takes. Sometimes it seems like 5 mins...sometimes it seems like 20mins. However, I know somewhere along the line of the girl talking and talking she begins to feel comfortable around you. She becomes familiar with you. I think this can really happen doing the opening phase. I don't think it takes that long.

I looked at a video once and they said being direct is all about sticking the approach. When I go out and do direct I approach girls and I totally can't tell how they will react. So in a way I am putting myself way out there.

So let me ask you this. When you approach direct what types of things do you say? And then what is your game plan after she is receptive?