When I first came to this pickup forum, it was about approaching beautiful girls for ONSs and casual sex, not a girlfriend. i didnt think I needed all of this to achieve that.

needed all what? this is research page on female attraction based on various studies
this is an idea to seek some help if you have some real problems that pua or will power can not solve for you
pickup, and game are about that, you dont need to be good looking or anything to go approach the girls, fuck, just about any guy no matter the circumstances as weird as it sounds can get laid, anyone is going to catch a fish if they throw out the line a million times and get good at reeling it back in

the question is though, what types of fish do you want to catch, how consistently do you want to catch fish, and what is the optimum bait to accomplish this

if you are out thinking you are going to catch a huge bass, with a broken rod and no bait, you could be fishing for a long time before a little sardine even bites the line

do you need to be rich, famous and male model good looking just to get a date and fuck her at the end?

no.... that is a ridiculous idea, do you have to be at least presentable and live up to a girls standards in order for her to want to fuck you? yes... that is just common sense

it is also downright weird that some guys seem to think that women, do not have standards, or somehow pretending that they are above those standards in their own heads, some how makes fantasy a reality

you dont need all these things... but they absolutely matter, and they absolutely help, pretty much no matter what your situation, there will be girls out there who value you, but the more you improve yourself, the more value you will have to offer and the more girls will be interested, pretty much that simple, better bait and equipment attracts more fish, and higher quality fish

you cant pick up girls if you dont attempt to pick up girls, if new girls are not being introduced into your life, obviously there is no access to no girls in your life and the less appealing you are, the more effort you will have to put into the leg work end of getting a girl, if thats a depressing thought, well tough luck man, life is tough, you can make it awesome if you strive to make it awesome

How old are you though? Target is an appropriate job for the under 25. But also you're in a stockroom most of the day too aren't you. You definitely gave the best response above all the others though.

37, and happy and getting laid a lot. More than when I was Mangement and making $

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Why guys and girls don't mesh.

"Chicks are crazy and guys are dumb." Chinopants.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... a_Nno&NR=1

First of all, your analogy is not good at all. Getting hit in the head implies physical injury..and of course you'll have concussions by getting hit in the head. Rejection is not physical pain. It's all in your head. Because you believe in rejection, it affects you. Your ego is attached to how other people perceive you. Think about it. If you don't search yourself in other people, how can someone reject you? How can someone lower your self-esteem, when you chunk away at any attachment you have towards the reactions of other people?

It's not a fact that you're getting affected by this. It's purely in your mind dude. When you INTERNALIZE that people don't have power over you, their judgements or what they think about you doesn't really define you...their MENTAL IMAGE of you cannot affect your emotional state. It will simply not enter your reality. Internal reality is primary. How you see the world is your reality. Change how you see the world and the world will change in front of you.


FlaiR

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Greatness is never borned

Women are boring, they need a fun/exciting guy to take care of her, this is why no money = no play. I am poor college student no job (15+ jobs applied no one hires me) I have met tons of girls, they say "men are nothing without money" They refuse to date college guys with no money. This is why they go out to clubs, they are bored and looking for someone fun. This is why only the guys I know with girlfriends have jobs/houses. Having an aprtment with 3 other guys don't what women want. They want you ready to go in a house/job to entertain them. I asked 10+ girls out this year, and my friend 6+. I been told by older women that I am "cute" and I think so, average guy, but looks won't cut it for guys.

They need money/house for entertainment of women. Love=money in my experience. It's part of the reason I find women less attractive now.

I learned never to give up, always approach/ask women out, be a fighter and not a coward, ask ask ask ask/approach approach approach. No I am not fat, just the women in my area/circle suck. One girl didn't know what "fantasies" were.


Believe in you're self, strong inner game is good.

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It is not AA that scares me or affects me anymore, its leading a conversation forward and keeping her interested. AA is nothing. Formally newpua2012, lost my pw

Clickngo first of all what women say they want and what they go for are 2 different things. Next money makes life better but it does not make you better. If you can't pull a girl with no cash in your pocket then having a little bit of dough is only going to pull the girls that are not worth playing with. Going to a club and spending $$$ does not make you a baller except in a rap song and on mtv

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Why guys and girls don't mesh.

"Chicks are crazy and guys are dumb." Chinopants.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... a_Nno&NR=1

You dont need looks money or a car to be good with woman, you dont need to be 7ft to play bascketball either, it just helps.

I read a few post from AFC's that said "If i was a good looking guy like that id be a pick-up artist too" this was in reference to AFC adam, now, thinking about it, he isnt the most attractive man in the world, but he does have good looks. Then i went through all the male pick up artists in my head, and rated them on their looks. I cant think of any ugly mPUA's, I believe this is due to there levels of success.

If you see a room of 20 people laughing at a guy who is smiling, its a safe assumption he is a funny guy. That is an attraibution proccess we make because we are lazy. So, if a man has success with woman, he becomes attractive, by a similar attribution proccess. Or, you assume he is rich/ famous, and that is the sorce of his success with woman.

The halo effect, is a psychological term for the attributuion of "funny socialy skills and kind and honest" to an attractive person based on looks alone. So, if you backwards rationalise this, if you act funny, social, kind and honest, you will be assumed to be more atractive. I belive it is the proccess that makes MPUAs be percieved as good looking or atleast not ugly.

All n all, dont wory about looks or money, just wory about being social

I think they are all important

it's not about ego flair... it's about self esteem and psychological injury, you can be completely detached from your ego while getting rejected, completely focused on her and the present moment, it doesn't matter, physiologically it will have an impact on your self esteem to be rejected over and over whether you are self conscious about it or not... even if you can walk away and there is no direct impact on your ego immediately, over time, just like the boxer, it will damage your self esteem

being immediately affected is not the point, that is the whole idea behind detach from the outcome and keep approaching, so you can have fun picking up, and associate fun to the process, but realistically if your strategy or ''game'' is a losing strategy, eventually you will have that realistic perception, after thousands of approaches, when you can look back and say, I've been going out a whole year approached thousands of girls and fucked 2 average drunk girls that stopped taking my calls after a one night stand, and most people like my personality, and I can make female friends and male friends easy... just can't get laid... this is fucking gay, and I must be unattractive, how do I improve this? (this is assuming you are not a sociopath or autistic and are actually aware of the social cues around you)

and saying this is not so, is wishful thinking, it's just like the boxer, he doesn't feel the hits at the time, there for, they do no have and effect on him (or so he believes), but his head does eventually start to get soar and he does eventually start to have problems in the long run (he dies eventually)
it's not the immediate that matters dude, it's the later on, trust me on this one, and it can make you so depressed eventually that you will either change, or give up

imagine going out at 44% bodyfat for a year and your wingman is physically speaking a 6'2, 182lb male model looking 9/10, you both do the mystery method with the exact same routines and go out week after week after week, just about every time you hit the club, he gets approached, he gets phone numbers, he makes out with girls (sometimes 4-5 in one night), he also regularly gets the opportunity for sex, even though he is somewhat more shy then you, has to be drunk to escalate on new girls, and often needs you to open the sets for him and you guys are using the same routines

now otoh, 3/4 sets not only don't open for you, they ignore you, no matter what you do, it is futile, they literally just won't speak with you, you've tried everything, being really loud, standing in front of them stronger eye contact, sociopath level persistence, trying to dis-qualify yourself, yelling, touching, it just results in girls telling you to fuck off, or to leave them alone, or in them pulling out their phone and hoping you just go away,

the other typical girls in set girl after girl give you one worded answers, or are rude to you, pretty much no girls ever want to invest, and occasionally, some girls will talk with you and be nice, and after demonstrating you are funny some previous girls that didn't want to invest start socializing with you, you can run your game and get girls talking if they give you that chance, but realistically they are almost all non-compliant and 99.99% of the time they want nothing to do with your penis, or being touched by you, and it makes them uncomfortable, but on the bright side they are willing to be your friend

now, imagine repeating this over over, thousands of girls, going out hundreds of times in the year, the first night... meh no big deal, who cares, talk to about 40 girls at the club, get no numbers, manage to have a conversation with 2 girls for a while as your buddy gets numbers all nights and a makeout, get over your AA completely by the end of the night, cool cool, you read the mystery method, you know you just suck now, looks don't matter, you'll get better, one year later, after regularly repeating this over and over, you are way more confident in your ability to start a conversation and touch girls and deal with their shit... but you are depressed as fuck, have fucked 2 girls after making thousands and thousands of approaches (by that time you don't even give a shit about them, or approaching), both were drunk and didn't want to have any repeat business, and it becomes pretty clear after that many approaches, that you are unattractive, you know how to fuck a girl, you see on a weekly basis how easy it is from your wingman, but you got no compliance

now where does this leave you?, you can improve yourself at all costs until what you are doing works, keep going down the same path and getting progressively more depressed as your self esteem becomes lower and lower and lower until you are border line suicidal or have mental problems like PDSD, or you can just give up

now, any ideas on why about 95% of guys don't succeed at pickup?

consider that the vast majority look into pickup because they don't have success to begin with, they usually have social phobia or emotional/mental disorders or physical short comings

it's not because they ''don't approach'', it's because they do approach, but they don't associate good emotions to the process, it's ideal to detach from getting laid, and attach to having fun

the problem with this is, it is not fun for them, being treated like shit by a bunch of women who you are attracted to, is not most guys idea of fun, and when this is a regular thing for these guys, they get attached to those results, because why are they enduring that abuse if not to get laid?

it's not like socializing brings much value for them when the girls are being rude and dismissive

even after becoming ripped, the old rejections still leave an impact on your self esteem, you can go open direct and most girls are excited, they look like they are put into shock, they smile, they giggle, the stand still and listen, they comply, they actually invest, you still get rejected, but at least the typical rejection are not given with that FUCK OFF YOU ARE SCUM vibe, but all those rejections from the past make it seem so fake, it feels like all these girls are just fake, you can get laid way easier, instead of having to approach over 1000 women just to get laid once, you can go get laid in under 30 approaches with a girl you actually find physically attractive, your phone numbers actually text you with eager interest instead of not taking your calls and or flaking you time after time, girls actually want to meet you, instead of finding reasons why not to

and what happens after all this shit?, you become numb to it, it's more about the connection with her, then what she looks like, because you realize without that, she isn't shit, and you aren't shit, she just wants to use you for sex before that, and who knows, maybe you want the same thing, but repeating that process over and over again, makes you feel empty, it doesn't bring happiness, happiness is just a state of being, you can be happy just because you are happy and allow yourself to feel that way, you pop a nut, feel good for 10-15 seconds, put your slimy dick back in your pants, and go back to feeling empty, because you know deep down inside after all that abuse and rejection from when you had less value to bring to the table, the average girl in front of you, doesn't give a fuck about you at all, she is needy and just takes value from you, and if there was no value there, you would be nothing to her, she couldn't give a fuck less about you as a person, but you really can't blame her most people are the same, they don't give at all, they just want to take

get one over, something for nothing, guys want to go out and fuck girls, not date them, not even get to know them, not have to present themselves well at all, just blow a load and move on, like they are a human tool for masturbation, their next porn fix, no pay prostitutes, pick them up with no effort and not get rejected... good stuff, a whole world full of needy people who don't give two fucks about giving, they just want to get

but even then, the fact that it becomes a 2 way street and there is reciprocation, improves the amount of ''fun'' it is to pickup and socialize, and there is more of a chance to find that real connection with someone, a real exchange of value, when you get good feedback, you feel good, you shouldn't have to rely on this and base your state on it (being reactive), but really if you can't experience this, nothing but negative experiences will give you nothing but a negative association and lower your self esteem, when everyone treats you well and with respect, you feel well and respected, when everyone rejects you and treats you like shit, you feel like a reject piece of shit and that's not really something you can control, you will just eventually become conditioned to feel that way since it is a part of your reality, and your perception of reality or subjective reality, is not the same as reality it's self in objective form, if you are treated as low status and perceived by others as low status, you are low status, your belief surrounding your own value does not define your objective value, and it is the person in front of you and their subjective perception of you that is important to whether or not you have value in that particular set, not your own internal monologue (although the inside projects outward, it does not define objective reality, merely reflects your frame of mind)

and your self esteem being lowered via rejection, that doesn't happen immediately if you are a secure, indifferent, proud, self respecting person, that happens when you have enough reference experience to recognize a clear pattern of negative feedback

Your belief in rejection makes rejection feel bad, your thought that her rejecting you lowers your value is wrong. Your value is a constant, but with your thoughts your perception of your value is a variable based on outside sources. Not smart to say "oh god, I didn't get the job because I'm stupid ugly and not as good as those other guys." It would be better to say "Oh shit, probably shouldn't have said this in the interview and if I would have done this and that I probably would have got the job." That said most jobs come with prerequisites, yet at the end the best guy for the job doesn't always get the job the guy who is liked the most does (based off of job studies).

This happens a lot in pick up, the "nice guy" is use to this, he is usually a lot better for a woman than the asshole yet she is more attracted to the asshole (commonly misperceived as confidence) a lot of times. What does it mean if you didn't get the job? You may have been under qualified but even the under qualified have got the job over the qualified guy simply because the interviewer liked them.

Rejection is not intrinsically bad, NOTHING IS.

There is something a lot of sports coaches believe in when they have a team full of players who are pre-Madonnas simply expect to win because they are athletic.
What I mean by this is you learn more from your "failures" than your successes. This is very important to remember because how we learned to walk was by falling not by standing, we learned ok if you step like this it doesn't work, if your stance is to narrow you can't keep balance, etc. We go through a series of trial and error until we got it right. Similarly this is how we learn most of our "lessons" in life, we are based on a series of 0s and 1s, binary answers to situations and we have come to program ourselves into what we are. Yes it really is that simple.

Rejection is an experience, you have the option to learn from it and adjust your behaviors or say "oh she doesn't like me I'm worthless". Rejection is a great thing because it teaches you how to do things properly. If you are successful with women it doesn't teach you shit(especially if you just got lucky because you are a "hot guy"), but when you get rejected if you have a healthy mindset you simply say one thing, "Ok what should I have done differently?"

Have you ever read the book "Who moved my cheese?" It has a very basic premise: It talks about a mouse who refuses to change, he keeps doing the same and expecting different results. He keeps going to the same place expecting things will "go back to how they were". If you go to a place and it doesn't have what you need over and over again you'll keep getting the same thing.

Just because mystery method works with that guy doesn't mean it is for you. So why the fuck do you keep trying it after 1000s of approaches? That is retarded, it would be completely irrational to keep doing the same fucking thing and expect different results. In order to improve you must change these things.

Rejection is most of the time not personal to us but their perception of us at the time. This often based off of our: Style, Looks, Personality, Behaviors etc. Meaning a woman may reject you but she is really just rejecting her perception of you, NOT YOU. You should always realize if you would have done things differently you could have got the girl in a lot of cases, of course sometimes she isn't single or her type, or any number of reasons not related to you at all (though you shouldn't feel you couldn't have done things differently, look for ways to improve).

I have something to say regarding your 6'2 180 pound model. I am the ugly one from my group, I'm fat (was 220 at one point), short, and Mexican in a predominately Caucasian conservative state. In other words I'm not "average" here, physically I'm below average. On top of that I came from a lower middle class family while all my friends were wealthy and didn't have the same fiscal worries I did. This doesn't mean I'm an ugly guy but a "cute guy" who becomes "hot" based off of my personality and skills with women.

That said I got just as many women as my friends with "low self-esteem" as my "hot" friends in the dorms (hooked up with 3 out of 4 girls in a suite even). In fact I actually had more opportunities (I would have got so many fly dames if I realized what I do now) to get with fly dames simply because of my social skills. This hasn't changed, I'm still the ugly guy in my group. I'll be standing next to my buddies and they'll get approached while I won't standing next to them but at the end of the night guess what? Women LOVE ME, and they find me more attractive then my buddies. Why is this? I make them feel good by making them laugh, compliments, self-confidence, etc.

Story:
Recently I went to a club (don't do this often anymore) and my buddy got approached by a woman who worked their, she said "I have a friend who is a waitress here who finds you intriguing." I laughed and because he knows my skills with reading body language asked me which one when the woman walked away. I laughed at him and told him there were at least 5 waitresses there attracted to him but I don't know which one it is. By the end of the night I changed nothing about my behaviors, I had fun, danced, bull shitted, and joked with the waitresses, I had danced with 4 of those very waitresses (a couple grinding up on me) and got looks from like 3 other ones.

Note: My buddy is a 6 foot 180 pound ex-model.

Physical attraction is initial, but how attractive you actually are has a limited amount to do with your overall "physical attraction/value".

Your perception of them being more attractive makes you down on yourself, it lowers your self-esteem unjustly. This is very important to realize because just because my friends are better looking doesn't mean they were better with women or "more attractive" than me.

I had very low self-esteem at 18 because I was constantly hearing how "hot" my friends were. Where as I was the nice fun guy, who was cute. My perception of me was that they were better than me. This is a very poor perception to have, to have your value based off of looks, money, etc. If I would have stayed with the mindset that I'm an "ugly fat guy" and all my friends were better then me I would have never realized my true value in this world. Your value is never based solely off of looks but your looks can severely limit you if you look like a slob and pay zero attention to yourself, after all if you treat yourself like that how would you treat someone else?

Note: All the girls my friends would hook up with that wanted to fuck them because they were "hot" guys were fucking nuts. INSANE so while looks get you girls you have to question the value of a girl who feels a guy is attractive only if he is good looking. Do you want to date a girl who cares purely about aesthetics? At least the girls I hooked up with more sane(what's more mean anyways? lol).

It bothers me when I read shit like "rejection makes you feel bad and lowers your self-esteem through social conditioning", it is a stupid statement because as stated no experience is intrinsically bad or good it is your perception that gives it value. Your feelings about yourself and how you base your value off of other people's opinion of you is a huge mistake. This doesn't mean you can't take another person's opinion of you as constructive criticism, but it does mean you should realize that just because a guy is better looking doesn't mean he is overall more attractive than you. It means that when someone says "You are fat" you should go work out and lose weight not to fit in but because it is healthy for you. It means when someone says "You drive shitty car," you tell them straight up it does what I need, my car isn't who I am. It means when a woman tells you "You are ugly" you realize right than and there she is ugly for basing her value of your attraction off of your looks (shallow people are ugly to me because it is an ugly human behavior).

Go out get healthy (work out/eat right), get a better job, and better yourself so you can be more attractive for you but don't do it to impress other people. Otherwise you'll be on a hedonic treadmill where you'll be constantly running forward to be happy but never actually get there. You'll get to your 6 pack, 6 figure income, and still not be able to hold a conversation because you'll be too self obsessed. You'll become this attractive guy but then you compare yourself to a higher bar, your happiness isn't about where you are but about where you are going (purpose), your self (-love, -certainty, -assurance, etc.), and being gracious for what you have rather than needing more.

I don't need a million dollars to be happy, I'm happy now, but that doesn't mean I'm not working toward my goal of being a millionaire. You see what I'm saying? My ambition for money isn't related to being successful compared to the kids I went to high school with or my friends, it is related to me wanting to have amazing experiences like travel, time, family, etc.

Note: The argument about the boxer getting hit in the head holds ZERO value. Every experienced boxer knows his goal is to hit but not be hit, too damn simple. If you get hit in the head your goal is to adjust and change your tactics in the ring, similarly you do this when you get rejected in pick up. If you learn to dodge the punches then you learned what to do when. If you get rejected you figure out where you need to adjust not how many more rejections you can take. At the same time note all the preparation it takes to be an elite boxer, working out, studying, creating new habits, etc. Similarly in PUA your skill set with women starts far before you ever meet her.

Peace and Love,

Vic

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Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

it is not the belief that rejection makes you feel bad, each specific rejection is usually easier to deal with then most think and very insignificant on it's own, it it like a fly landing on your shoulder

the point was that your belief does not change objective reality, your perception of your own value, is not the same thing as the perception of your value from the girl in front of you

if you are a low status guy, you develop an ego that you are high status, and have a high self esteem even when you are low status, but it does not make you high status, it just equates to a low status guy who is dillusional

it's not the rejection that you have to fear, it is repetition of negative feedback, over and over and over, eventually, it will affect your self esteem, there is not really a way around this, and you can not will yourself to not experience emotion
you make a good point here about detachment from outcome

under this context though, the guy was still lacking the qualifications to get the job, you can beat yourself up about that and be ''attached to the outcome'' or you can move on and try to look for another job, or better your qualifications, and in the short term it will most likely have absolutely little to no impact on your self esteem

the point being that even if you will only go for an IT job, and you're indifferent to the outcome, you can go to 20 jobs in a row and apply leaving with relatively the same level of self esteem saying, OHH WELL, THE NEXT ONE WILL WORK OUT BETTER.... I KNOW IM A GREAT WORKER, JUST HAVE TO HAVE A BETTER INTERVIEW

after hearing Sorry Mr.Vic.... you just haven't got the experience or qualifications to work this job, over and over and over after applying to every IT job in the city, at a certain point when a re-occuring pattern is very clear, you will be able to say... gee, maybe the objective reality of getting this IT job, requires more qualifications then those I actively possess, it seems that I am not qualified for this job

you can deny this, but subconsiously it will happen, you will just become conditioned eventually and realize the pattern
to progress, gain confidence, and improve, rejection is a nessicary part of the process, you learn as much from negative feedback as you do from positive feedback

the point being that hopefully you are aware of feedback, and LEARNING, if you constantly get negative feedback but you do not correct the pattern, then you will not improve and will continue to recieve negative feedback

and too much re-occuring negative feedback, will lead to higher levels of mental stress and a lower self esteem (notice it is not lowered confidence, it is lowered self worth)
while your point is obvious, you can't make the major leagues as a pitcher if you can't throw a baseball

it's wishful thinking to say, IF I JUST GIVE IT MY BEST AND BELIEVE, I'LL BE IN THE NBA

you have to actually possess the skill set to manage accomplishing that
this has very little to do with self esteem and more to do with confidence we agree here that you learn from mistakes

you also learn just as much from success

neither is inherently better or worse then the other

experience is the best teacher, and you will learn from all forms of reference, this issue is too much negative feedback telling you, you suck, will lead to you becomming aware that you are getting this feedback, and it will eventually start affect your self worth, you will FEEL lower in self worth, it's not about what sort of ego you create around this and how many times you tell yourself that you are of high self worth, if you don't feel like you are of high worth, then the self esteem is being lowered, and if you feel like shit, but tell yourself you feel fine, that is your ego talking not your self esteem
just because you believe you are the king of england, does not make you the king of england

believing your an attractive guy, and you can fuck 10s on the regular, is much different then actually being an attactive guy and fucking 10s on the regular, it requires the skillsets and qualifications from her end to accomplish this

if an ugly girl with aids believe she can go fuck bradd pitt, who knows, maybe she can, but it's likely brad pitt has standards at this point in his life that would make that situation unlikely from playing out that way

any guy can fuck, but every girl values something different from the next,
no value = no fuck

this is about maximizing your value, vs pretending you have value when you do not, self esteem does not amount to actual skill level but the two tend to be related (pretty obviously most people who are good at something, know they are good at something)

that book is what is trying to be pointed out here, change has to occur, you have to improve yourself to raise your value, being dillusional doesn't change anything, dillusional belief and objective reality are not the same thing, believing you are high in status among men when you are not, does not make you high in status among men
there is nothing wrong with the mystery method in this instance, since ''social status'' was not the qualification that was lacking in order to get laid here, physical fitness and health was
if you get rejected 1000 times in a row, it becomes blatently obvious to you that you get rejected often, this totally has an effect on self perseception, and is completely out of your control, it is a reference experience for you and is objective fact reguardless of how you try to re-frame that in your head, it will always linger on some level and will have an affect on your self esteem

her perception of you is what gets you laid, this has been beaten to death so far, the only way to break a negative pattern, is to become aware of the pattern and remove the element that causes the pattern in the first place, if she sees no value in fucking a guy who doesn't have a place to live, you're shit out of luck unless you can bring enough value some other way to change her opinion, if she won't fuck a guy who is overweight blah blah blah same thing, but what is important here is she will determine what is of value to her in order to spread those legs, it has little to do with what the guy in front of her believes and more to do with what he projects to her and how she percieves that

no value = no interest in investing in the product
high value = high interest in investing in the product

how you convert the interest into ''closing the deal'' will be dependant on your ''game'' plan, but the game plan it's self does not create the interest to begin with, the value of the product creates that interest

even in terms of social skills to alter your ''social value'' or ''social status'', a big ego and high self esteem do not = high level of social skills

and beyond that, women see a bigger picture to the mating game then ''social status'', it is your status as a whole in relation to men that matters, EVERYTHING MATTERS, social status is just a piece of the puzzle
well that's really awesome man, if you don't need to take care of yourself health wise to bang hot women, more power to you
that's great man, but really dancing and sticking your cock inside a girl, are worlds apart, this is not generally the compliance threashold you will reach to realize that the girl is dis-interested, some girls will even kiss a guy they are not attracted to (but the vast majority will not make out with a guy they don't find attractive)

the more you push the envelope the more you will see this re-occuring pattern, make outs, phone numbers, and positive attention do not = P in V, and a girl doesn't have to like you to fuck you
it's not about being more or less attractive, infact the mystery method gives guys a new ego to adopt and a delusional sense of self esteem after reading it's all about being alpha, ALPHA ALPHA ALPHA, LOOK DON'T MATTER, 20/80, ALPHA, ALPHA, ALPHA

it's not the belief, it's objective reality, it's about going to the same 3 night clubs with high volume on your days off, shooting for hot girls and getting drunk with your buddy, week after week after week, repeating the same process of talking to girls, talk to girls, friend gets number that don't flake, gets makes out, positive attention, gets laid in general, you usually get ignored and have to sit by while the girls engange your friend and pretend you don't exist, some sets are nice and you have a conversation that goes no where, have a dance, maybe a few flaky numbers, but no girls want to fuck you at all, not in the slightest, be your friend maybe, talk with you, sure, suck your dick? not a chance in hell, extremely rare to see compliance passed or up to making out

and this is not from lack of escalation or know how, this is quite simply an issue of value, and the lack of investment from the other end, this is not due to low self esteem or lack of motivation to succeed, lack of trying or know how etc.

it's purely the effect of no reciprocation or interest towards your sexuality or intentions

it's easy to say, it's just how you feel, or it was your ''game'', but realistically once the element of health was altered, the results and feedback changed, while the self esteem still remains somewhat damaged

it's pretty obvious that ''game'' and social skills are not the issue here when you go from being rejected and treated poorly and never more as a friend, and banging two attractive girls only after going through a legion of attractive girls

vs becoming healthy and doing the same thing, but garnering drastically different results, and drastically in this statement is not a hyperbole here, and this is field tested, you get irritated when guys say that rejection hurts you, I feel the same way when someone says that looks are not relvant to improving your dating life, because saying this defies my experience with this issue and encouraging guys to not care about improving their physical appearance is like telling them to sell themselves short, losing close to 100lbs DRASTICALLY changed my dating life in a positive way, more then any routine, line, gimmick, feeling, game what ever the fuck, being ripped and already having the know how to meet girls and attempt to get them in bed, did more good for me in terms of getting laid then learning more ways to go about socializing and making it happen (this is especially relevant if you are particularily shallow and want girls who are high in demand superfically speaking), a game plan is a game plan, she either sees the value and invests/complies or does not, if you are substancially below average in the health department it is absolutely worth your while to improve this area of your life, and when other people pipe up saying it doesn't matter and don't worry about it, it is like someone spitting in the face of the truth, improving your appearance will have a drastic affect on the impression you make
no, looks do not define your value, but to ignore them as a large part of your sexual market value is to be unrealistic, it is the same as suggesting that guys don't care about looks as long as a girl is a sweetheart

while it's true that there is more to the big picture, it only goes so far, and everyone female and male, has a standard that they uphold themselves to, maybe someone can be so amazing to blow you away with value from some other side of the spectrum that you were not aware of and you drop that standard because there is so much value and you can just rationalize to yourself somehow that they met that standard,

but realistically, most people will not give you a chance to do that if you are way way below that standard, and it can take a considerable amount of value in some other area to re-frame a negative first impression, and make no mistake, women care about physical appearance (read the empirical research above if you would like to dispute this)
same could be said for guys dude... it's just biology, good health is a good indication of good genes

good genes = better chance for your genes to be passed on since they are high in quality

the point is not really that looks are ALL that matter, far from it, in fact women can be much more forgiving in this respect then men because they are far more picky then that *generally speaking*, and on top of that looks are subjective to begin with and different girls want different things

the point here is that they DO MATTER, and women do have physical standards and if you are well below these standards from her subjective point of view your chances of fucking that particular girl, are slim to none... if you are trying to fish with shitty bait, you are gonna have a fuck of a time catching fish that don't like that bait

but otoh, looks don't get you laid, that is not the point here either, you could have the best bait in the world, but if you never go fishing, and don't know how to throw a line out or reel your line back in, you are fucked either way and won't catch any fish either

if you have a negative assoiation with a particular experience or anchor, you can assosiate a negative feeling to that response, classical conditioning (also known as pavlovian conditioning or respondent conditioning) is a cool phenomenon related to psychology, you should check it out, it's pretty sick

if you get called a faggot enough times every day, and you assosiate negative context to the word faggot, there is only so many times you can repeat this negative process before you start to assosiate all this abuse with negative feelings about yourself, it doesn't matter if the ego you have adopted is ''I DON'T CARE ABOUT THIS'', if the word feels bad psychologically and your central nervous system picks up on this and it is used over and over, you will become conditioned to feel bad,

you are also not able to control how you feel, unless you are suffering mental health issues, you can merely control your actions and persception of the environment you are in, and that can have a affect on what you experience, but if there is a negative response from the CNS, you will and can be conditioned and it is very much so out of your control

saying ''I don't care what people think'' on the level of being indifferent to what they think, vs it not having and effect on you, are two different things and unless you are a sociopath, you will have some social awareness and empathy involved in the process of socializing, this is a human thing and you can not just will yourself to not feel emotions
well said, in terms of getting laid though, doesn't really matter, you can be a depressed ladies man, just as easily as a happy virgin
good stuff, being happy is a great feeling
what does this analogy have to do with a boxer that gets hit in the head and says it doesn't bother him, but experiences physical damage reguardless of his ego?

what is this suggesting? don't get rejected in the first place? or are you suggesting if you get hit?, alter the issue that caused you to get hit in the first place?

if it's the latter then we actually agree here, you have to fix the problem instead of ignoring it and forming an ego around ''IT DOESN'T PHASE ME'', lieing to yourself as a boxer, does not fix your issue of getting hit in the first place, and ignoring the issue will just lead to brain damage (in this particular boxer's situation)

you also seem to be forgetting that even the greats take damage over time, they may be able to deal with the stress in the moment but after a while it wears them down, mohammed ali is considered by plenty of people the be the greatest boxer of all time (fuck that tyson was the man)... boxing sure didn't fuck him up health wise did it? (parkinson's via head trauma if you were unaware)

you know, theres a something that my boxing coach told me when I used to take boxing, and it went something along the lines of,

''you know guys, boxing is the only sport, where practise makes you worse, the more your practise boxing, the more stupid you become''
(this is unrelated to pickup)

Ey buddy,

I'm living proof that nothing really matters. Like fuck for reals...here is the situation I was at a year ago.

I was 20.
Never had a girlfriend in my life.
Never kissed a girl.
The most I've done with a girl is probably a hug.
I don't have a car, nor my license and I live in America where a car is almost essential to traveling and going on dates.
I am Asian (this one really doesn't count but I'll get to it later).
Don't have a job.
Chubby/overweight.

So basically I wasn't eye candy (overweight), had no job (no money), and inexperienced with woman (never had a girlfriend) and girls my age has already been through 1-2 relationships so me never been in one is a turn off (or at least they think there's probably something wrong with me. No car so I can't take a girl out on a date. And I also thought at the time that me being Asian who is attracted to non-Asians is also a huge factor.


Today
I am 21
Average weight
...still Asian (surprising right?)
...still don't have a job
...still don't have a car
had my first kiss, first girlfriend, first break up
and countless kiss-close and f-close

and get this...my first girlfriend is white. I still kiss/fuck Asian women but the majority that I do anything with are non-Asian.

So really bro, PUA is about personality. It's about self-respect. It's about YOU and what YOU want. Not all woman want the same thing, but most of them find physically fit man attractive, they find confidence sexy. Looks...you can always change and so does money. You can be rich one second and poor the next. Most women want something that doesn't change as often, your personality and view in life.

Honestly I typed up a ton of shit but I just don't feel like opening it up, you take my argument out of context and in doing so deflate my argument. You ignored tons of points and then repeated them as argument.

You also ignored my final line that said exactly this:
I also wanted to mention this (something I kept from my long write up):

I want to talk about detachment from outcome using Poker as an example because PUA and Poker are very related.

In poker the rule is if you would have called even if you knew what he had you made a good call. Now last night I ended up with Pocket Rockets(Aces), I push all in and he calls with his pocket bitches (queens). He hits his bitches for a set and ends up taking the pot. Now am I suppose to get down on myself when in reality I made the right move? I got him to commit enough chips to double up, everything I did was right, yet the outcome was him kicking me out of the Tournament.

This is an important lesson right here, be more obsessed with what you did and how you can correct it (or not) than with the outcome. If however I hadn't have read the 15 or so poker books, experience, and countless body language books I wouldn't have known what I did wrong or right. What I mean by this, is you need to go out and figure out what to do wrong or right. Not worry about your "chip stack" or aesthetics because in the grand scheme of things I can sit down with 100 in cash and turn it into 500 where as another guy may sit down with 300 and give it over to me by not knowing what he is doing. You see? This guy has more value on the surface but not underneath.

^^^Very important to realize this. In other words his perceived value is actually value to the other person. Fuck yeah I want a jack ass to sit down with 300, It's mine soon enough. His value is fiscal but my value is far more(because I'll gain his fiscal worth) and thus WORTH MORE.

Note: I am decent poker player but I'm not that good just trying to make a point.

Your spill on being attractive not being the key is exactly my point, Skills trump it all. You mentioned closing the deal being key but we are talking about attracting women, I also mentioned previously in this thread that skills with women has more to do with self-confidence, courtship confidence, and sexual tension/escalation skills. Yet you argue it here, you can still get fly girls attracted to you standing next to the model, that is my point. In fact I've been arguing the whole time skills trumps "outer value".

I am not sure how you missed the layers and layer and layer and layers of the point is to learn from your experiences and adjust to get better results. Hence in boxing the goal is to adjust after getting hit, not to take the hit. Of course taking 1000 hits to the head is going to give you brain damage, it is why you "float like a butterfly sting like a bee." It is why you aim to hit but not be hit. If you are doing something wrong adjust.

Again rejection doesn't hurt if you don't take it personally if you see it as nothing more than an experience even you have said nothing is inherently good or bad:
Learn the lessons it gives you and you'll experience it less. This is my point right here, don't make it a negative experience make it a positive experience.

Note: To me gaining self-confidence extends to every part of your life, health, mental, emotional, spiritual, and relationships. So encompassed in gaining it is bettering yourself, but the key is to do it for yourself as mentioned how many times now?

Pumpington you know I respect you but don't take my arguments out of context, it is kind of ridiculous to have an argument when you are agreeing with 90% of what I say long hand. It seems as if you are looking for ways to disagree rather than looking at what I'm actually saying.

Peace and Love,

Vic

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

hmm, please forgive me if you feel misunderstood or that your opinions are being devalued

lets continue this mental master-debating, your points are all fairly clear, it just seems sometimes you are placing the wrong context on an argument that is not related to the context of what you are trying to dispute in the first place

the whole idea here of this thread is: money, looks and having a job, and if they ''matter''

my position: yes they matter, girls care, but thinking you can't get laid without these things is a limiting belief, because it is not these things that get you laid, it is the act of convincing a girl to fuck you that creates the actual act of sex and the know how to do this, you are only limiting yourself if you think you ''NEED'' these things to accomplish sex, but having them is very relevant to your level of success and is a key factor, and if not THE key factor in if a girl is attracted to you, or isn't attracted to you, looks make her want to fuck, money increases the chance she wants to stick around and raise a family with you and allows you to spend more time meeting women (more important for the long term and keeping women, and supporting the habit of getting women, then actually making you attractive to women)

also, if you repeat negative experiences over and over that suggest you have low self worth, you will lower your self esteem in doing this, regardless of how you manage this on a micro level and it is out of your control

if you are being understood correctly,

your position: money, looks and having a job, matter, but don't matter very much, girls don't care, personality is what girls are attracted to, and your ''skills'' in relation to socializing is the biggest factor in female to male attraction and it trumps all and is most of what determines your dating ''value'', if you believe you have a high self worth and have good social skills, women will want to fuck you more then a guy who has external advantages the outwardly project a high worth (such as looks and wealth)

you also wanted to stress that being rejected or experiencing negative responses in interactions, has no effect on you psychologically, that rejection is neither good or bad and you can control how you feel based on how you view the experience and manage it on a micro level

does this sum up your arguments so far from your point of view?
we agree here and dis-agree here based on two separate contexts, and here is why, yes detachment is a great thing, being able to detach from that ego telling you, FUCK A GIRL TONIGHT OR YOU'RE A LOSER, EVERY NIGHT YOU DON'T FUCK, MAKES YOU A BIGGER LOSER, etc. etc., beating yourself down and managing your view on a micro level in this way because you are not getting results, will do you no good, it will just turn pickup into a stressful chore, instead of a fun way to unwind and enjoy yourself, flirting with girls should be fun, not utterly stressful, and learning how to improve on how much fun you have, as well as how you can make future situations even better, will do a world of good, that is how you build confidence

confidence, is what gets you laid, the know how of what to do, and how to do it, takes you from, ''hello'', to, ''bend over'', it creates the actual act it's self, without this know how and process, sex is close to impossible to achieve, thus a ''game'' plan, is paramount to achieving success with getting laid, the tighter the game, with the more ''confidence'', the more likely that the plan is executed with success

how ever, where we don't see eye to eye here, if the negative feedback you are receiving during socializing with women, is based on the ''chip stack'', you must correct this pattern if you would like the pattern to dis-continue, to ignore it, is the whole point that has been beaten to death, having that giant stack at the table, and focusing on building that stack is a better idea when you know it's an issue, if you're hitting up the table with great poker skills, but you got one 50cent chip, and the buy in is 5$ off the blind, you're fucked, you won't even get your foot in the door, and sitting at the table ignoring the dealer telling you, you can't join the game, and saying what are you talking about, I have enough, is not the same as actually having enough for the buy in (and for some tables, the buy in is high rollers only if you catch my drift, and usually those are the most fun tables to play at)

instead of trying to avoid getting the stacks, so that you don't have to work at a job so to speak to buy those chips, you should put in the effort to get the best job possible so that you can come back and have a giant stack of chips, and buy the fuck into that game better then anyone else at the table, you'll have a huge advantage with your poker skills now and you can hit the buy ins for the high roller tables

in terms of value, what is it you consider value?

from my point of view, value is simply, benefit vs cost,

and sexually, most studies and books on sexual/natural selection, as well as pretty much all of the social psychology studies I have read on this topic, have a strong correlation that both males and females, prioritize physical attractiveness as the most important asset in dating, and my personal experience fully correlates to this research

there is also an interesting social psychology study that showed that women when ''asked'' what they prioritized, rated looks lower then a lot of other things, stressing the importance below 50%, while males over stressed the importance of looks at over 80%, when actually tested (were a whole bunch of variables were taken into account), it was observed that both males and females seemed to respond in a way that suggested both valued looks in the 70th percentile range (the second study I am going to link they did not test for stated preference vs actual preference but they found both males and females prioritized physical attraction in the 80th percentile range from their sample data), and the most interesting thing I found from these studies was that, according to this specific sample (in both studies), women in both cases were actually rated, MORE physically shallow then men (they responded to physical attraction in the sample, more then the males did), while when they were asked they were way more covert about what they ACTUALLY respond to, this suggested to researchers that females might possibly not be aware of what they are actually attracted to, or that they are more prone to lieing about what they prefer, and both males and females alike seemed to both prioritize physical attraction first

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/psych/PLEEP/pd ... %20EHB.pdf

http://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/el ... 07_001.pdf


(graph to represent the eastwick study, note how physical attractiveness was valued most highly by women, financial status valued lower by women, and personality valued lower by women in comparison to men)

there are plenty of other studies you could find that further support these ideals and go more specifically into the psychology of what people say, vs what they are actually responding to (if you are interested in those, you could probably find them on google after a few minutes of poking around)
were we are not seeing eye to eye here, is that this analogy of having money, vs an extremely skilled poker player, is somewhat different from the reality of fucking a girl

you approach a girl, and your ''skill'' has more to do with going through the motions and cashing in on the ''value'' she perceives you have, and doing this well enough that you don't fuck it up, this ''know how'' aka confidence in what you are doing, is what gets you laid, it is cashing in so to speak, but it is not the majority of what determines the ''value'' to begin with (the way mystery put this was that, it's in the proof socially, and the proof is more powerful then the intangible, it's about health/wealth/love, and the social skills tie it together for you to outwardly project the value, having a girl on your arm is a bigger asset, then telling a dhv story about a girl on your arm, etc.)

if she believes you are under qualified, no amount of an amazing personality, will have her on her knees sucking your cock, there has to be tangible status for her to give two squirts of a fuck, personality for guys in terms of ''being attractive'', is about as useful as personality for a girl, do girls need good looks to fuck a guy? nope... guys initiate and she may not like her options, but she will probably have some since looks are subjective and plenty of guys have low standards, when it comes to finding a man, looks don't matter, when it comes to her getting the man she wants no issues, she is going to have to meet that mans standards

just like, does a guy need actual high status to fuck a girl? nope... limiting belief, he will find a girl, if he just ''knows how'' to look, and that is where males and females differ in this dating game, is guys have to develop that ''know how'' or they are seriously fucked (in a bad way), even if they have the value, they need to have the confidence and skill set to cash it in, this is why game is so important, a high status guy with no game, isn't getting laid with any form of consistency what so ever, girls could be throwing themselves at him, tossing him hints left and right, if he's socially retarded and doesn't ''know how'' or is too pussy to escalate or has anxiety issues etc. and can't turn that opportunity into sex, he isn't getting laid

on the other hand, a guy with relatively ''low status'', but a good game, is not going to be getting laid often either, and if he is, it will be with girls that are less then desirable from optimum, because it is human nature for both males and females to strive to maximize their mating potential (we tend to try to sleep with the most attractive people possible)

you might see this in your day to day life, see a girl who is dating down looks wise, and chances are the guy has some other form of tangible value to bring him more status compared to other men (something that makes him really important), but you can almost guarantee, in her eyes, he still meets her standards... and women do have standards

on top of this, it has been noted in a lot of research on sexual selection, that girls at their most fertile points of their cycles in ovulation, are prone to become more horny, and specifically seek out masculine men to have ''short term'' relations with (aka fucking them but not dating so much in the long term, one night stands/fuckbuddies etc.), with the focus being on good genetic quality (aka good looks and indications of high T over access to resources and security), girls are also considered to be mostly hypergamous at this time (willing to fuck with no commitment just to fuck the hottest guy possible)

they are also more prone to the socio/economic factors involved in status when considering a long term mate, the whole provider vs lover dynamic (the red queen covers this pretty in depth)

the red queen suggests, girls are biologically designed through evolution, to want a guy in her ''league'' looks wise, with an access to resources and security for the long term, and is willing to date down if the guy has a high amount of status to offer with respect to resources and security (big tough guys, or ''bad boys'', or ''social leaders'' or rich guys), but these are ''provider'' types, and in terms of just plain getting laid, your best route is the ''good looking as fuck'' route, these are the guys girls are most likely to fuck faster, these are the guys girls are most likely to not date in the long term, these are the guys most likely a girl will cheat with, and girls are also better at not getting caught while cheating (he suggested a girl is designed to find the guy who can protect her the most and offer the most resources to date for the long term, then cheat on him on the side with the hottest guy she can find so that the provider can raise the kid with his access to resources/security)
this is where we can agree to dis-agree, my whole life from 6 years old, to 18 years old, never in my life have I had a problem with making friends, coming from a military family, we were forced to move once every two years, and making new friends is a skillset you HAVE to acquire unless you want to live like a loner, this is probably why for the most part, meeting new people and facing AA, is not the toughest of tasks for me

during high school, you know what being really popular, having the best looking guy in school as your best friend, and hanging out as ''friends'' with all the hottest girls in your grade and having access to parties amounted to? losing my virginity to the token overweight girl from that group after connecting with her for over a year to the point where besides my lifetime friend of 12 years, she was my best friend, she joked and flirted and I ignored it because to me, being 240+ lbs at the time, did not feel any girl would find me attractive no matter how unattractive, the thing is though, she was a rare exception, seeing as how she had some other issues from early in her life that most likely caused her to be a very open promiscuous person

that, compared to how stupid easy it is now, ''skills'' from your point of view, are not what attract women in my opinion, they are what ''get'' you women that are already attracted, and a girl doesn't have to like you to fuck you, she just has to be attracted, and her liking you can increase that attraction, but it does not define it, and the less she is attracted from the superficial point of view, the more she has to like you, and at a certain point, no amount of liking you will shift some people to see passed a superficial standard
no one is missing the point here, your point is very clear, maybe it is my points that are unclear, rejection being ''bad'' is not really what I am trying to say, rejection is a good indication of a negative pattern that has to change

that is my point here and how it differs from your own, if there is no change, then that pattern will repeat it's self, and it is that pattern that is bad, not rejection it's self, rejection it's self can be a good thing, repeating the process of getting rejected and not correcting the pattern that causes this can lead to a damaged self esteem, on a micro level, it is insignificant and really doesn't mean jack shit, on a macro level, it can be damaging to be negatively conditioned to experience a negative response over and over and over, it tells your CNS do XYZ and YZY will occur, and if YZY is a negative variable, you will naturally start to avoid experiencing YZY (this is a chemical response from your brain to do so, out of your control, it's why it's extremely hard for you to break your own skin with your teeth, or bite your tongue and make it bleed on purpose, self preservation is built into you)
we agree here, this falls under the idea of you can control your actions and persception of the environment you are in, and that can have a affect on what you experience,

even with that being agreed upon if there is a negative response from the CNS, you will and can be conditioned and it is very much so out of your control, if you can find some way to frame a girl telling you to fuck off as a good response in your head, more power to you, if you can go through flake after flake after flake approaching hundreds and hundreds of women without getting laid, more power to you, most people don't have that kind of will power, and most people will associate a negative response connotation to these things

you can soften the blow, and manage things very easily on the micro, but it's the repetitive conditioning on the macro level that is the issue here
you are saying this, but in your above poker analogy via ''don't focus on looks''

you seem to be contradicting yourself, experience builds confidence, if you KNOW, you need to improve your health to break a negative pattern, but ignore this pattern, you are not using your ''know how'' at all
your arguments and points are very much so in a context that is fairly easy to understand, it's possible the context of my statements are being misunderstood or you are misinterpreting disagreement as a lack of understanding, and rationalizing that it is agreement when we both have different opinions on the issue at hand

and after that has been reiterated, allow me to stress, that looks are subjective, and what is considered physically attractive, is at the discretion of the person in question, the same can be said for personality as well as what is considered wealth or high social status, there for, value is subjective