Everyone likes to talk about everything that we gain once we find this lifestyle. This community. No one ever speak out about the things they have lost. Before I continue this, I am in no way condemning this community. It is a wonderful place to be accepted, and has changed so many lives for the better. Still, a little balance.... perspective is in order I believe. Now, I will not pretend to know what the rest of you go through, or feel. Or even pretend to know the things you have gained and lost. I a will relate something I have experienced, in hopes of starting a candid conversation on the subject.

For me, I have lost the ability to talk to women for the sake of talking to them. There used to be a day, when my conversations with women had nothing to do with "gaming" them. I was conversing with them, just to converse with them. I was genuinely curious. I always found comfort in speaking with the opposite sex. It always put me at ease.

Now, every conversation I have with a women is strictly to "game" her. Most of the time I do this without even realizing it. The things I have learned have become so internalized that I can't turn them off. While I am not one to lie to a women when I "game" her. I still can not help but feel like the conversation is not honest at it's core. It has an deeper motive. There is a goal, and endgame. Eye contact, she is brushing her hair from her face, that is a smile for me, okay she is into me. What is next. Where do I go from here. How do I get her number. What will work, what won't work. With all of this internalized the very nature of an open dialogue goes out the window.

It's almost like when trying to have a discussion with a women, just for the sake of a discussion, I am an AFC all over again. Internalizing all of this PUA stuff is very counter-intuitive to having that honest conversation even when you don't tell a single lie. Because it has another motive behind it other then just talking. So, when I decide to have a conversation for the sake of conversing, I have to actively try to do so. Much like when I was an AFC, first starting to open sets. I had to remember the things I had read. Hold your drink in you left hand, so the first contact is warm and welcoming. Engage the entire group. No when to gracefully eject.

In conclusion, while I have gained so much from this community, I have lost the ability to easily have on open and candid discussion with a women, without trying to game her. What about everyone else? Have you discovered that you lost something unexpected when you joined this community? Before anyway can try and be funny, your virginity doesn't count.

Cheers guys.

Men don't converse with women unless there is at least some form of physical attraction. It's not dishonest, it's not gaming, it's just your natural instinct to be drawn to conversations with the most attractive women. You wouldn't converse with a woman who was really ugly, obese, braces and covered in acne, so even your supposedly innocent verbal exchanges with women before you got into pickup were subconsciously sexually driven. It's far more dishonest to engage them in pleasant conversation without hinting at your sexual intention, when in actual fact you are attracted to them. You can still have those nice conversations you speak of AND have a sexual relationship with women. Just make sure you have those pleasant non-sexual conversations AFTER sex, like if you go shopping or the morning after in bed.

All women play games, there is a misconception in the PUA community that the girls are the only ones who "get gamed". It's always a battle, a push/pull, and women love playing the game as much as you do.

In answer to your question, the only thing I feel I have lost is time. Time with family and time on my career (starting a business).

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I understand exactly what your saying! There is always a loss where something is gained. You may or may not be aware of Newtons third law.

Newtons 3rd Law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

If you spend time practicing a sport, your losing time playing a video games
If you spend time with your freinds, your losing time with your family
If you spend time working, your losing free time
If you gain work ethic, you lose the ability to just sit around and "do nothing"
If you eat food you like (unhealthy), you are losing health ergo gaining weight

No matter what you do there is always something that your not doing. Your realizing that you have gained knowledge of how to seduce women sexually, BUT you have lost the abilty to not speak to women with ulterior motives. In order to attain something you must sacrifice something else. That being said from an objective point of view I think the biggest sacrifice of Pick-Up-Arts is the ability to have sucessfull LTRs. Its hard to put up with a womans shit if you know that perhaps you could get a better woman. Its hard to stay faithful to a woman when you could have sex with almost any woman you want. Pick-Up is seriously draining to your relationships because once you gain the power to attract as many women as you want, the thought of "why should i settle for one?" is always in the back of your head! Seductions comes with no disclaimers but just like everything else in this world it has its pros and cons!

You are not talking about PUAs.

It is true that you lose some things on your way to become a PUA but once you reach your goal and truly become a PUA, youll get them back.

Granted, not many people ever become PUAs.

See it as a journey, you gotta check in your luggage but it is gonna be there when you arrive, sometimes it gets lost but normally it finds its way back to you in the end.

When you reach your destination, you are gonna be the same guy you were before you started and your core values will be the same. Difference is, you will have more experience and a better understanding of what it is all about.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

I think that you are aiming to something between the lines of innocence.

It`s true, I found myself losing my childish innocence along the way, still have some of that thou.

But that`s the difference between a child and a man, it`s knowing the differences, losing your innocence and seeing the world for what it is: a cruel place.

Then you can be innocent and warm to those near you that deserves that; I no longer go out there showing my true self, I adapted. Every time I meet someone it`s a different me who says "hello"; you have to do more than shake your hand in order to get a person to trust you.

I must disagree. While yes it is hard coded into our DNA to seek out the most attractive women to mate with and ensure the survival of our species. That by no means should indicate that every conversation with a women has to be underlined with physical attraction.

Furthermore the idea that women of lesser beauty equals a lesser worth is something I believe is vastly wrong with the pick up community. Now, I understand that there must be a level of attraction. Once again that is hardcoded into out DNA. But to treat women like they are anything more or less then fucking human beings is despicable. Just because a girl has braces, or acne, doesn't mean that she has no meaningful insights about life. It doesn't mean she isn't a genuinely interesting person. There was once a day when I could sit back and have an honest discussion about life, goals, and passion with a women with no underlined thoughts of trying to "Bang Her." But after internalizing all of these skills, it conditions you to accept every female encounter as a possible sexual encounter. Which in turn eliminates any form of communication that does not have the intent of getting into her pants.

Being a PUA isn't about how much you can get your dick wet. It's about core confidence, ease of life, and leaving her better then you found her. Being a PUA should be about connecting with people on an individual level, whether you are trying to take her home or not. Whether she is a 2 or a 10. Every interaction you have with anyone, male or female, should make them think to themselves, I am fucking glad I met this person.

For all the newcomers. Read and learn. Internalize these skills. Just know that you never get something for nothing. There is always equivalent exchange. I don't care what these other guys will try to tell you, you will lose something. Is that a reason to not learn, no. It is just something no one told me when I was first starting, and in retrospect it would have been nice to know. Would I have made a different choice. Probably not, but I would have had the choice.

And please don't be one of these guys that thinks every interaction with a women has to have sexual motivations. Because with that thought, comes another. That all women are for is sex.

In short, learn everything you can, take it all with a grain of salt, and don't be a dick. The human species is counting on you.[/quote]

What does a TRUE pua mean? To me it means being able to pick up any chick you want that is possible. It is fairly easy to get laid when in the right environment. Most guy's will only need a few techniques or whatever from pua and will do fine. No reason to become a "master pua". It's just overkill. Too much of anything has negative consequences.

Not picking a fight but your quote imo deitizes "true" pua's as if flowers and rainbows flow out of their ass. I'm sure it's great to be a masterful pua but it has it's downfalls just as everything else.

To become a pua shouldn't be the goal here for any guy. It should be to lead a fufilling balanced life.

I mean TRUE PUA as in someone who have realized that PUA is not only about being able to pick up any girl. No offense.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

In essence, what you're saying is, because PU has changed the wiring of your head to such a great extent, you've forgotten the protocols of normal social behavior.

I think this problem stems from not understanding the actual "psychology" behind what a PUA guru tries to teach and instead, just following his teachings on the face value. Also, totally adopting what someone might have taught you, without a pinch of salt.

Not everything works for everyone in the same fashion. So firstly, get the essential concept of a PU rule instead of the rule on its face value.

Secondly, PU helps many people improve their normal social interactions. Sure, there's a lot of bullshit for advice out there, but if you know how to take the right ones and discard the bullshit, it should ideally improve your normal social behavior.

For instance, even if you were to have a normal friendship with a woman, PU teaches you to be confident, assertive, dominant and polite. That will improve your friendship with this chick and will certainly do you more good if you were an AFC. Now PU also tells you to flirt and kino, but since this isn't the kind of a relationship that you want with this woman, you don't apply flirting and kino with her.

I think what you forget is, PU teaches you to CHOOSE what you want to have. What kind of a relation you want to have with someone. You want to befriend her or fuck her.

Learning to spell doesn't make you forget your alphabets.

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Women are plenty, time is not.

I had some pua ask me to go to a seminar right as I started dating my last gf. PU was foreign to me then, so I was clueless. I told him that I already have a gf now so I don't need to learn how to pick up chicks. He was like, "Doesn't matter bro, it will help you train your gf." I thought he was just trying to get some money out of me and I blew him off.

Jump/skip/cut to a year later, my gf broke my heart and sued me and I wasted the better part of a year with her and fucked my life up. I did not know how to keep, maintain, and control a woman at all. I was just an AFC putzing along in my shitty relationship. If only I'd listened to that pua...

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“Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!” ~Audrey Hepburn

I've been out of the forum some months, realizing a few things about PUA and myself.

PUA applies differently to every person, just like bringing together different elements have different reactions.

What you left behind when you "joined" the community is what YOU wanted to leave behind. It's not the same for everybody. I have a few female friends who are actually friends whom I see every now and then, get together for coffee, etc. They are both married, and actually help me meet other women whom they think I might like. So I treat them as equals, and if a girl I'm interested in is present at the same time, I can talk to her (the"HB") and apply some PUA training (just like I can switch and speak to my daughter in english when I can be speaking at the time to somebody else in spanish).

These are SKILLS you learn. They are not DNA encoded into your system controlling your every action (or at least they shouldn't be). It's sort of like the force hahahahahah......

Each takes what he needs/wants from this community, and hopefully it's the better advice that people notice and keep. And also each leaves behind what he wants. Just like I left (mostly) my insecure, unknowledgeable, AA ridden self behind.

(though, AA sometimes creeps back after you've been out of the game for a while)

As I said, and this is only MY opinion, what is learnt here are skills and perspectives and sometimes tips for life, just like we learn anything else.

Peace,

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Fuck with her mind and her body will follow.

PU is something you do. You go, you pick up a chick, or do whatever the hell you want to do. That doesn't automatically make you a PUA. And for most people there is no need to be one.

I like to play tennis, but it doesn't become part of my identity. You need not to go to extremes of identifying yourself with everything you do. That'll only make you overthink things that aren't worth thinking about.

[/quote]

It's time to dismount from thy high horse, my pious liege! To deny that we as masculine males would prefer to spend extended platonic periods of time with ugly females over their more attractive counterparts is to go against our human nature. Females are still attracted to masculine looks but it's not as important as it is to men, because their survival instinct dictates that it is the stronger males (physically and mentally) who are far more attractive to them than beautiful males with no balls.

I agree that just one of those ugly characteristics such as acne or braces doesn't necessarily mean a female is unattractive (the latter in fact, when removed, is of no consequence), but if a woman has lots of those characteristics or chooses to be unhygienic, obese or extremely masculine in her appearance, I don't care how good her company is, the natural mammalian reaction is to be repulsed. It's a survival instinct. This doesn't mean I shy away from conversation with friendly old ladies when I go shopping, on the contrary, but subconsciously I guess I don't deeply befriend people who are unpleasant to smell or look at, male or female (even my male buddies are either decent-looking or at least presentable - ...No homo). And I'm sure I'm not the only man in the world who does this subconsciously. People who look after themselves physically are generally better company than those who don't. You can tell a lot about somebody's lifestyle based on how they look.

If this makes me a dick, then so be it. I personally call it natural selection. This doesn't mean I can't get deep spiritual meaning out of watching a film full of ugly people, nor does it mean I'm constantly thinking about sex with every woman I'm talking to. Since I've always tried to approach game as naturally as possible, I always avoid canned material and all those forced routines with fake body language wherever possible anyway.

Those thoughts that pop into your head of "bang her" is what has driven mankind to war and without it, our civilisation would have died out. All scientific discovery and innovation; it's all driven by our survival instinct and our instinct to re-produce. You are trying to counter-balance the guilt you feel for being mammalian, but you fail to acknowledge that your socially-engineered environment is the only thing which makes you feel the guilt. Admit you are an animal and the lack of guilt will set you free. Girls want to hang out with the most popular guys, because they value status above looks, which is the same as guys who want to hang out with hot girls. It's the same objective of survival/reproduction but with different criteria.

I've always had the ability to turn my emotions on and off, like a tap. Again, I believe this is a natural masculine survival instinct, because out in the wild, I can't afford to be emotional all the time because I would be attacked and killed by a rival male.

"I'm not better than you. You're not better than me.
We all need to stop pretending we're so fucking divine." - Raised Fist

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First off, everyone has made some fantastic points, and a discussion is underway, which was the intent of this post.

Second, I feel like I may not have expressed myself to the best of my abilities. For that I apologize. I was not trying to pick a fight with anyone. Nor was I trying to prove that I was somehow better then anyone. I was only trying to express some observations that I have come across in my own experiences. So thank you all for the input, and when I get a little free time I will revisit this and make an attempt to better convey what I was trying to say.

Who is a true PUA? Mystery? He's severely depressed and suicidal and I've seen a lot of guys severely harming their lives with PUA stuff. Some guy who learned to master NLP is now convinced that he's the greatest and all-knowing guy out there and is unable to see that he's actually just a clown and entertainment for the general public. No friends and no genuine relationships. Just games where they only end up failing in the end.