the good looking fucker says, i don't know what i am doing wrong, it is a numbers game why is not working....

I appreciate this is being brought up, it has been brought up many times before, and it will be brought up many times to come

pick up is a numbers game, people may claim it is not, but at it's core, it always will be, a guy's status will give him more interest, but without direction, without a purpose behind what he is doing and without a sense of self, he will not be able to move in his own direction

that post seems to pick on RSD, and to be honest I like and agree with alot of content I have seen RSD put out, but they tend to have alot of marketing involved in their products, at some point you have to be able to separate the value, from the brain washing, and often times I see it is either one or the other, a person blindly believes everything, or they blindly reject everything, there is no critical thinking at all, it is sad to see

playing huge numbers will eventually get you laid no matter what, if you approach a million girls, one is bound to fuck you sooner or later no matter how shit poor your skills are or what status your project, even the most physically unattractive of girls is bound to get laid sooner or later if she meets enough guys, but if you can't learn to observe and learn from your experiences and accept and embrace change, then the same results will tend to re-occur

even in your post here skills, you have your own way, your own personal dogma, your own sense of self and what ''you'' do, that guy who walks in and does the 25 approaches while you are dancing is not necessarily doing anything wrong, but as you can see from the clear indication from your post

he lacks a direction and sense of self, that you have obviously found for yourself, an inability to critically think and make his own choices and lead things in his own way, towards his own destination, he clearly has no destination in mind, or no idea of how ''he'' wants to get there, all he knows is that someone else can get there, and he wants to adopt that experience to himself, without actually trusting in who he is and what he wants

I signed up only to write a reply to this... If you want to know who I am check out my blog: http://www.vanofvictory.com

I could write a post as long as yours but I'll try to keep it short. (edit: haha, that didn't work)

1) I'm not an RSD fan. In fact I was once banned from their forum and all my posts deleted due to something that I wrote there... (if you want, I'll PM that post)

2) Tyler himself in one of the vBlog videos says that it IS a numbers game. He says something like "yea, it's a numbers game. Don't like it? Fuck off! You don't like going out and being social? Fuck off! You think you can sneak into a girls pants with some magic lines and bullshit? Fuck off!" Maybe someone else here remembers which video it is...

3) However, despite the above... pick up CAN be a numbers game.. but it does not have to be. And I'll give you just one very clear example of this, from two weeks ago: I met a girl in a club... we danced and talked all night, we had a great connection but she didn't even let me kiss her. But I didn't care because we had a great time together and it was a salsa club and she was a good partners and I liked her.. so who gives a fuck if I won't fuck her, or even if she doesn't let me kiss her.... right?

We met in the same place a few days later. Again we danced and had a great time together. After about two hours, I go again for the kiss and she lets me kiss her. Cool... we dance for an hour more and then I decided that I had enough and tell her "lets go, I'm tired".

We go out to the street, I stop a taxi and she starts saying "haha, I'm not going with you... haha... you're crazy... haha... no.... my place is in the other direction". The taxi is standing there... waiting for me to go in. Any other person would just say "cool, good night" and would leave. But I looked at her and said:

"Listen, I'm not going to sleep with you.... I don't know you good enough, so I won't have sex with you"

She looked at me and.... went into the taxi.

Now this line that I gave her "I'm not going to sleep with you"... that was NOT a numbers game. That comes from experience. It comes from doing this for 1.5 years. It comes from knowing women.... and it was a line I "delivered" consciously. I knew exactly what I'm going to say, how to say it, and when.

We then went to my place and within 20 minutes I was banging her. Later, just after we finished, I said something like "hahaha... 'I'm not going to sleep with you...' you believed me... " and she asked me if "it was a lie?"

I told her "yes, I told you what you needed to hear" and she started laughing. She said that she is not sure why "she is like that" but that she just couldn't go into the taxi with me because she didn't want to feel "easy" and that for the same reason she didn't kiss me the first night. She said she talked about it with her gay friend, she told him "I wanted to kiss him... but I didn't want to be that kind of girl...."

So let me ask you now.... Do you still think that pick up is JUST a numbers game?

look, I have MANY such stories. Small things that I did, a line that I said here, a certain move that I used there, knowing what to do and when to do it... there is a lot to pick up that you CAN learn.

And lets not forget "date design".... while in Poland I did three "Day2" with three girls, one night after the other, and banged each of them, because I had a "date" plan that more or less guaranteed it. (me teaching them salsa -> me cooking dinner for them -> long movie on sofa made them miss the last buss -> to my bed. You can read about it on the blog)

Going back to RSD... 18 months ago I didn't think I will EVER be able to walk to a girl and start chatting with her... just the idea of doing that seemed insane to me. Fast forward 1.5 years later - In the last month, so far, I've been with 8 girls and had a threesome. If you don't believe me, give me your phone number and I'll call you, I'll tell you so many details about each of these pickups that you'll know for certain that I'm not bullshiting you, I can send you FB chat history screenshots, screenshots of SMS messages... Were they all 9s and 10s? No... were they all cute and very bangable chicks? Hell yea... and some of them genuinely very good looking.

And I learned the MOST from the RSD free videos. Before you can add "lines and tactics" you MUST start with "inner game" and nothing helped me more than Tylers videos. RSD tells people to go out, go to the gym, eat healthy, read books, get a life... they're doing a lot of good stuff for a lot of people. But on the other hand, yea I agree about the cult mindset and that they drew a lot of psychopaths... man I can talk about this for hours but I have tons of shit to do...

Man... they SAY "it is a numbers game". They teach people to "just be themselves"... (which is not even true... haha... because you can use lines and tactics, as I said) you're pissed about their marketing and the $2000... I get that. But after all - they are a BUSINESS. They need to make money, so they need to charge money for some of their "products" if you can call them like that. If someone pays $2000 for a bootcamp - he can afford it. Nobody twists his arm. I think, too, that it's STUPID. But on the other hand, if I'd take a bootcamp, maybe it would have shaven a few months from my learning curve... I would never IMAGINE in A MILLION YEARS that I can just walk up to chicks and "claw" them for example.... WTF? It was just not part of my reality until I saw Tim talks about it and doing it in some videos... and then I try it and what do you know... I can "claw" girls and they love it... haha.

Anyway... read my blog, in the next few weeks I'll add a lot of posts, on dozens of pulls and exactly how I did them, so you'll see that it's not ONLY a numbers game... and just for the record, I use very FEW lines and tactics, it's more about confidence and knowing what to do when you need to do it. I'm actually going to take a couple of months off pickup to learn more lines and write more routines, because I know how powerful they are... I'm just always too busy going out.

Also one major point - when you're advanced you don't waste your energy opening 50 sets a night.... you learn how to RECOGNIZE girls who are down to fuck and then you go and hit only them. There are about 100 ways to recognize such girls:


Lone wolves – girls who are at the venue alone, because their friends already left, or because they came by themselves (rare).
Showing Skin – Women who are wearing more provocative clothing and are showing more skin than others. Short dresses, open shirts, no bra, exposed shoulders, etc.
Age difference -the older chicks in the room and the younger chicks in the room – a 29 years old in a venue where everybody is 23, or a 20 year old in venue where everyone is 28.
The Dancers- women who dance more sensually than others, who may seem to be making an effort to attract attention. Girls who “bump” into other guys, who throw themselves around more than others. Two or more girls who “push each other” because they are “fighting” – they are simply looking for attention.
The Drinkers – Women who seems to be drinking more than others, particularly if they are drinking shots and who seems to be trying to get drunk and get other people drunk as well.
Women who hangout at the bar, particularly if they are alone.
Women who walk around the bar / dance-floor as if they are “looking for trouble” – you learn to pick up on them.
Women who generally seem horny – who stand next to the dance-floor looking around, touching their hair, wetting their lips, holding a beer.

This is from a post I made about SNL.... again, check it out on the blog. There is a lot more there.... venue selection, how to do it, etc... just by reading that one post you'll realize HOW MUCH you can learn about PU and how better off you are learning this shit... think about the guys who know none of this. You're light years ahead of them man.

"Numbers game" is a bad way of phrasing the concept. It should be replaced with "effort game". Once approaching becomes easy, doing it 1000 more times without adding anything else won't help.

However, if a guy approaches 1000 girls and puts forth his full effort every time, he's gunna become awesome.

Effort, i don't know about the word effort, there is effort in the numbers game, or in any seduction, the effort for me means like a lot of work, when pick up is simple, the playing the numbers looks to me like a lot of effort and work...

My personal opinion is:
numbers 10%
being attractive 25%(looks, hygiene, ambition, confidence etc...)
seduction skills 15%(game, not fucking up doing the wrong things that makes you unattractive)
escalation, arousal and sexual skills 55%

You're assuming someone has the skill to be effortless. Anything you're not already good at requires effort to make up for that lack of skill.

To you, the numbers game is stupid. To a beginner, it might be thier best option. Likewise, I think crawling is stupid. Walking is so much better. But I'm not going to tell my 9-month-old nephew that.

The "numbers game" philosophy is simple to me - If you want to get laid as often as possible, multiple times a night, every single night you go out than you need to abide by this idea.

However, to me, I find this philosophy as silly. I didn't come into PUA to rack up a kill count in the hundreds or thousands. I came into PUA to get a greater understanding of women, to gain more confidence in myself and to fully comprehend what works and what doesn't. I'm not interesting in having sex with the bar slut, I'm not interested in having sex with the chick that gets around with every guy in the group. I'm interested in fulfilling what I call my own "bucket list." I want to convince that virgin to lose her v-card to me, I want that mysterious red head, I want to have sex with that bombshell thats the biggest bitch around, etc. I want to be able to understand what makes different women tick and use that knowledge to try and hook up with the women I want. Not the ones who are willing or are just simply hot but the ones who have a certain mystique to them.

Now, I realize no matter how good you are in PUA you will never be able to sleep with every single woman you desire. However, with the knowledge that I attain from this place and other sources, I have a much better shot. It's better to try out for Team Canada knowing you put in hours of practice, trained with the best coaches and studied as much video than going into a try out with little or no practice or knowledge.

The numbers game is a great way to start off. No matter who the person is - talk to them. Guy or girl. No matter how skinny or fat the girl - talk to her. No matter how big her butt is - talk to her. And so on and so fourth. This not only increases your confidence but increases your comfort level talking to people. Doing this process will more than likely mean you should be getting laid often.

Thats not my end goal. It might be for some and I can understand why they follow the numbers game philosophy. I'm not here to judge, I'm here to learn. I'd rather just take advice from those who follow a similiar philosophy as my own.

Of course this is true. (other than the better looking, well dressed, rich guy getting rejected, that's just you projecting your insecurities. The example didn't need any detail on your competition)


Some guys will pull 1/1000 approaches. Some 1/2. Obviously if you have a high success rate, it's not a numbers game, because you probably have a pretty good ability to target girls who will be interested in you.

I have bitten my tongue for too long, I thought I'd sit back and see if I could actually relate to the general mentality of this forum, but truthfully, it's a bunch of haters, or people seeking validation. I see post of guy's preaching their skills and how to do this and that, yet at the beginning of the thread they will say shit like I have been a PUA for 3 yrs WTF! You bash a guy for actually wanting to be a pick up artist rather then a fucking pick up monkey. If you guys wanna run around and approach every woman you see, then yes expect a lot of rejection. If you want to frequent a club and hit on every hot chick you see, then go ahead, but dont expect to pick up any of them.

Lets say you play the numbers game and on average, 2 out of 10 women you can pick up. Now lets say, you approach the first 8 that you can't get. Do you honestly think your state of mind is gonna be the same as if you found the 2 that are down first? Of course not, no matter how much confidence you have you are going to be affected. Not only that, if the 2 women that you can get have been watching you try to pick up the other 8, there's a great chance they will no longer be interested. And trust me, if a woman has interest in you, you can sure as hell believe she has been watching you.

When i first came to this forum, i talked about how i take a good amount of time to pre-screen women and look for women that show interest before I approach and I got mocked and laughed at, in my mind i was like wtf? OK i'll shut up, maybe these people know another method, maybe they can show something I don't already know. Maybe there is something to all this PUA mental masterbation.

A good majority of this forum are full of shit, and need to open their eyes. It's not rocket science, it's interacting with another human being, but if you are playing the numbers game rather then having a true passion for women and the art of pick up, you are never gonna get anywhere, sure you may get laid a lot, but if you are not learning from your seductions, learning about women, about their desires and needs, learning to identify the obtainable women, learning to identify the woman that are showing interest as opposed to the ones that have zero interest, then you will never evolve and you will be stuck in a revolving door.

If you don't believe me, ask a dude like Poeticlyskuac, ask him what his pick up ratio is, I guarantee you it's extremely high. Why? Because he is learning the most important things about pick up. How to correctly interpret IOI's and body language in general.

@ Tygynasty, dude I know you think I am full of shit and a virgin, and that's your choice. But stick to your belief, don't listen to these haters. 80+ % is obtainable
If you believe enough in yourself, and take the appropriate steps in bettering your image, and learning about women and how to identify the right ones, instead of this PUA BS. It will all come together. Your mentality is in the right place, keep the passion for the art and it will all come together. Don't be a pick up monkey like half this forum appears to be.

The Numbers Game Fallacy

April 13, 2012 by Heartiste

Trolls often ask “isn’t pickup just a numbers game”? I say trolls, because it’s rare you’ll hear this question from an honest person sincerely seeking answers. The question is farcical once you dig into it a bit, and anti-gamers like to use it in an attempt to discredit game/evolutionary biology/sex differences/female hypergamy…. pick any one or all. (Funnily enough, you’ll hardly ever hear women using it, probably because women don’t like to think of themselves as numbers.)

The “numbers game” fallacy is similar to the “hours game” fallacy. Think of a great musician. He has to put in a lot of hours of practice to get great at his craft. Once greatness is achieved, a person asserting an “hours game” argument would contend that the musician’s continued greatness depends on all the hours he puts into playing. But that is not the case. A great musician, once trained, can play five minutes a week and still be great compared to the non-musician or hobbyist musician.

So it is with game and pickup. Logically and unavoidably, most neophytes will make more approaches in order to put their game theory to practice in the field. That is how you get good. Simply reading about game and approaching one woman per year won’t cut it. But once a number of up-front approaches have been made — once the steepest part of the learning curve has been crested — and the aspiring seducer has improved his game acumen, then he can reduce his number of approaches while still enjoying a very good sex and love life because his odds of any one approach resulting in a fuck close have measurably increased over his previous, game-less baseline.

And from personal experience, this is exactly what happened to me. When I first tried game, I kept my approach numbers at the same level i had before game. Once I started tasting improved success using game, I increased my approach number because 1. I was excited to see how much I could accomplish using game, and 2. I had to approach more women to try out all the new things I was learning.

Naturally, my close rate increased with my increased approach rate, owing mostly to my game skills but also partly to the larger pool of women I was hitting on. (In contrast, had I increased my pool of prospects while using NO GAME, my close rate would not have increased by nearly as much.) Then, after a few years of this fucking around for fun and sexual profit, I decided that I was interested in longer term relations with women, so I gradually pared back my number of approaches to about the same level I had before learning game. And a funny thing happened. I was having more success with the fewer, and hotter!, women I was approaching than I would have had without game. I had a skillset called game and it increased my positive interactions with women across the board. In other words, my RATE of rejection was lower, and my rate of success higher.

That’s the way doubters need to view the numbers game fallacy: numbers matter, but game matters more. The two work in concert until enough competency is achieved that numbers are no longer needed.

For those who refuse to part ways with the numbers game fallacy, I direct your attention to the headstrong but socially clueless geeky beta male. I think most of us have encountered this type of guy in our lives. He’s aggressively nerdy, unafraid to approach women in his awkward fashion, and never learns from his mistakes. He has no discernible game besides fearlessness and a lack of shame. He’s a little “off”. He’s our test case for measuring game against numbers. He’s got the numbers, but he has no game, and the results aren’t pretty: one ugly rejection after another. But he soldiers on.

You can approach thousands of women, but if you have no game, if you persist in engaging women with your socially clumsy schtick and never trying to improve yourself, all that you’ll get is a huge notch count of rejections — a botch count. Sure, you might “get lucky” once in a blue moon using nothing but numbers game. But why wait for that when real game — real cultivated charisma — can increase your lay odds to a level, at the least, where you go from 1 lay in 1,000 approaches to 1 lay in 100 approaches? And with hotter babes on top of it? That’s an order of magnitude better success with women over just maxing out your number of pickup attempts.

Not to mention, a numbers game mentality will do nothing for you once you’re already in a relationship with a woman you love. Having no game at that stage is risking a lot; a lot more than a measly five minute approach in a bar. And it’s not like you can numbers game your girlfriend over and over until she falls back in love with you.

Anyhow, I hope this clears the air on this fallacy. I doubt it will convince the trolls, but then they were never really open to being convinced.