Thanks for the link!

Yeah, it seems that my 'roster' is kind of cleared out at the moment! lol.. not like it was much to begin with, but I'll do my best to get some new ones going next week when I'm back.

I still can't believe "lab girl". That one seemed like it should have been mine, but I was pretty surprised to find out through facebook that she has a boyfriend already. I guess I just wrongly assumed she was single by how things were going. I'll find things like that out much sooner in the future. She flirted with me a lot and never said anything to me that would have indicated she wasn't single. Oh well, live and learn. I certainly won't ignore her if I see her again, but the campus is pretty big and outside of the class I haven't seen her around, so odds aren't too good that I'll run into her, but you never know.

Thanks for all your input so far, keep it coming! I don't mind the 'harshness' of your comments at all.. I need a good 'slap in the face' sometimes or a reality check, because I do some stupid shit sometimes if left to my own devices! lol ... but I'm trying to get better.

That teacher I mentioned is the type of guy that'll ask you a question to put you on the spot, then try to make you look stupid, or he'll do or say things to you in front of several people to try to embarrass you, and I just don't function well in that type of environment, so I decided to drop the class. It's unfortunate, because had I had a chance to get to know "lab girl" better, I still think something could have eventually come out of it. But like I was saying, there are a lot more single girls out there for me, I just have to keep at it and I'm sure things will work out and fall into place soon.

Anyways, I have about 10 situational opener ideas written down now, so I think that's a step in the right direction.

Main things that I think I need to work on:

- approach more, be more natural and confident
- create more of a connection in the conversations
- create more sexual tension in the conversations
- use situational openers whenever possible vs. canned direction questions etc.
- use more KINO when I'm talking
- always get the girl's number, don't just give her mine. And plan a fun 'day 2' event during the conversation.
- don't linger around too long, "leave them laughing" is something I should keep in mind too. Don't let the convo drag on too long where it can get dry, awkward or stale.

The KINO thing has always been a bit of a problem for me. Growing up, I've never been one to use kino in conversations, as I've never been a touchy-feely type of person, so unfortunately using KINO is a bit of a challenge for me as it doesn't feel natural. But this, like many other things, is something that I'm just going to have to learn through practice until it gets to feel natural.

I'm also going to read "Chief"'s outer game thread again as a refresher.

How quickly time flies

When I get back, I believe that I'll only have five weeks of school until it's over for the summer. But, I'm pretty sure I'll be there for the summer semester, I just have to register in a course or two. Not being in school would absolutely kill my game. It would be really painful at this point to have to think that I have a mere five weeks left, then have to wait until September before I'm back.

Going out to a bar

I do have one guy, maybe two that I could go out to a bar with. I don't mind being around alcohol, that doesn't really bother me, but it's just a completely different environment than school, and it's been years since I've been to a bar. Plus, the guys I know are my age, and I'm so used to being around much younger girls and people in general. And the one guy I talk to most drinks a lot, and I think it would be hard to even hang with him because we'd be on two different levels. He'd be pretty much wasted, and I'd be stone cold sober wishing I was back in school on the benches! lol... I don't know, it's a tough go sometimes!

I guess I'm 'spoiled' being at the school, because it would be hard to be out at a bar looking at your average girl that's 35+ when I'm used to seeing girls a decade and a half younger at school. He's not a bad wing, he uses natural game, but his problem is alcohol has slowly taken over and affected him to the point where it prevents him from being able to score what he could otherwise. But that's another story altogether.

Thoughts on my progress so far:

Well, even though I haven't been laid yet, or even have anything on the go at this point, I'm still quite happy with my progress so far. I started this journal on January 9th, and I've done several approaches and got one phone number since that time.

I think the main point that makes me happy is that I've done more in this last month and a half than I have in the last several years at the school combined, and to me, that is significant progress. If I keep going and progressing at the pace that I am, it's only a mater of time until good things will happen.

Anyways, it looks like my next update won't be until next Monday or Tuesday when I'm back in school.

Cheers.

Before I get to today, I'll post Monday's results.

Monday Feb 27

I see a HB7.5 on the benches, so I sit down on the same bench. Even though I have about a dozen situational openers written down, I couldn't think of one that fit for that particular moment. So, I ended up using my usual asking for directions one. I figure a canned opener is better than not opening at all, so I went ahead. She didn't know where the office was, but this time I was ready for an answer like that and I just kept going.

I talked to her for maybe 10 minutes or so about general fluff type things, school etc. She's an international student, and she has a fairly thick accent. I couldn't figure out whether she was just very shy or not interested. Maybe it was a bit of a culture difference too, because she didn't do or say much to keep the conversation going, but each time I spoke she would immediately look at me with a big smile and answered or commented on whatever I would say. Her friend ended up coming soon after, and she said bye, then left.

She looked to be a little young, and combined with the fact that I couldn't tell whether she was just very shy, or not into me, I didn't try to #close. Generally, I'm trying for girls in their early 20s, but I don't have any set in stone rule about specific ages. Anyways, I let her walk away. We'll call her "International Girl"

good things I did:

- Used KINO - when I introduced myself and got her name, I shook her hand (Something I'm not used to doing when I meet girls)
- The conversation was pretty good, and I didn't really ask too many interview questions.
- I was able to throw in a few of my little jokes or one liners to make her laugh a bit.
- When I mentioned my joke about how people approach me on the benches, she commented saying maybe it's because I'm attractive

Things I could've/should've done:

- Didn't get her number even though she said I was attractive

Today's Results:

- 2 approaches
- 1 #close

First approach:

In the second entry in this journal I talk about my first approach. It was a HB8 blonde on the benches, and I used an indirect opinion opener about tattoos. Well, a few months later it's her on the bench right beside me! I didn't even recognize her until I sat down and looked at her once or twice. Today I would have rated her an HB7, but that doesn't really matter I suppose.

So I basically just opened saying that she looked familiar, and was thinking that she could have been in my class, but now realize you're the girl I talked to about tattoos first semester. She remembered, and we talked for about 10 minutes roughly with a break in between before I began talking again using one of the situational opener ideas I wrote down. She seemed quite friendly and seemed interested in talking with me, and she also seemed a bit shy too, as I noticed her stumble on a word or two a couple of times.

But, the 'problem' was that I didn't notice that she made any great effort to continue the conversation or wasn't really asking me questions. I know you can't always tell, but I took that as maybe an IOD. Now I know you'll never know unless you try, but for whatever reason I decided not to try to #close her. Her friend came maybe 5 minutes later, when she got up she told me it was nice talking to me with a big smile, then they both left.

Good points

- felt good to open with 'natural' conversation vs something 'fake'
- Even the situational opener I used after a break in the conversation seemed to flow, and feel natural
- Conversation went pretty well overall

Needs work

- Perhaps it's the fear of rejection that's made me not bother to try to #close
- The idea of the game is to get things going, I can't just stop at conversations and be satisfied that I made another approach
- seed a 'fun' day 2 event and #close

Second Approach:

I was on my way out of there, when I walked by the benches and thought I saw "International Girl" from Monday on the same benches in the same spot. I had already walked by, so I kept going and just went to the washroom, and then on my way back, I sat down and said hi.

Like Monday, she was very happy to speak to me, and seemed happy to see me, but again, she would answer whatever I said or commented on what I said, but she just continued looking at her phone with her head down when I stopped talking. And each time I'd say something else, she would look up with a big smile and answer what I asked. So this is where I was a bit confused, It could easily be that she's just shy, a bit of culture difference too perhaps, or she's just being very polite and has no interest.

Well, I tried to seed a day 2 by asking her what are her favorite spots on campus to hang out, or eat etc. But before I got a chance to ask if she'd like to go there sometime with me, she starts to stand up and says her friend is over there and she had to go. So I just said that we should go to such and such place sometime, and she says yes with a big smile. So I just said what's the best way for me to get a hold of you, and she asks if I want her number. Nice, another #close. She put her name and number in my phone, and she left and I just texted her hi with my name right away so she'd have my number.

I walked away still not sure how this was going to go, and a half an hour later she texts me back saying that she was so glad to meet me today! Well, we'll see how this one goes.

What’s up guys, it’s been awhile!

For a few reasons, I was debating whether I was going to continue this journal, but I’ve decided that I’ll keep it going for now anyways.

Quite a lot has happened, but I’ll just stick to the main things. One thing I’m going to do is try to streamline the journal a bit and try not to make it too wordy. But, knowing me, it’ll still end up that way anyways!

Updates

Ukrainian blondie

I’ve seen her a few times in the hallways, and we’ve said hi to each other but that’s about it. Now I know why she flaked on me - she has a boyfriend. I was sitting on a bench with another aspiring PUA who I met through this site (he came to school with me) and we saw her walk by with a guy. Well, this dude was quite a lot older, kind of overweight, and he had a bald spot. They were walking hand in hand and I saw them kiss. Oh well, it didn’t bother me at all, rather, I found it quite amusing. But hey, whatever blows her hair back, if she’s happy, I’m happy.

International girl

Even though we text back and forth somewhat, she’s still turning out to be a flake. I initially asked her to meet up for a drink/tea, but she said she had too much work to do as it’s the end of the school year and exams start in about a week. She’s still taken the initiative to text me first a few times which is good, but she seemed reluctant to actually meet up and usually mentions how much work she has to do. And this past week she’s been sick with the flu as well on top of all her work.

Recent results

- Several approaches
- (2) # closes

I’ve made small talk and had a few brief conversations with around 10 girls. Admittedly, a few of them have just been fairly simple direction-type openers that didn’t go beyond that, but some have been brief conversations as well.

Of these approaches, I tried and succeeded on 2 more # closes.

Horse rider girl

Opened with my usual asking where a certain office is then transitioned into regular conversation after that. I talked to her for maybe 15 minutes then # closed her as the conversation went quite well. Her body was at least an 8, but her face was a 4, so perhaps I should average them and say she’s an HB6? Lol .. anyways.

She flaked on me, which was surprising. The day after I got her # I sent her a simple text just saying it was nice talking to her the other day and wished her luck on the essay she was working on. She didn’t reply.

Summer dress girl

I also opened her with my directional opener asking where a particular office is. We had a good conversation that also lasted for about 15 minutes. She’s a petite brunette that’s my type, has a great body and nice face. I’d say she’s a HB8. Like the horse rider girl, I texted her a day or two after just saying it was nice talking to her and wished her a good weekend. She texted me back pretty much right away, and we went back and forth a bit and I set up a day 2 that will take place on campus sometime this week. She definitely seems interested to see me again.

Meeting a few guys from this site

Through this site I’ve met up with 2 aspiring PUAs. The one guy has come to the school with me twice now for a bit of day game. Both of the guys are young guys ages 20 and 21.

The three of us recently met up at a mall to discuss game, and I’m going to try some night game with one of the guys soon.

Shopping mall kiosk fail

I had my first negative/bitchy reaction from a girl that I approached. Admittedly, I brought it all on myself because I did something kind of stupid and out of character. This happened when I met the one aspiring PUA from this site. We decided to meet at a mall one day after school to talk first and then to try some day game.

Long story short, I approached a womens makeup stand and said something kind of stupid in a joking way about is there any man-makeup for me at their booth. Well I walked up expecting them to turn around to acknowledge me, but they didn’t. At that moment, my frame changed, I lost confidence, and my happy cocky mood evaporated. I spat out my stupid comment, got a very cold/rude one or two word reply, I looked at a few things for a brief second, mumbled something like I don't know about this, and walked away. It was pretty rough.

Like I said, I brought it on myself for doing something out of character and not fully thinking it through before I went up and did it. I don’t really know what I was hoping to accomplish, perhaps I wanted to ‘put on a show’ for the guy I first met. Damn, did that ever backfire. I got some redemption anyways, because he saw me number close the blonde horserider girl a day or two later at the school.

Good points about my game overall

I’ve had a 100% success ratio so far with my number closes in that I haven’t been refused yet. What I have done is usually say something like it’s been nice talking to you, we should talk again. She always agrees. Then I say what’s the best way for me to get a hold of you. Then she’ll generally say take my phone #. I’m not saying that this is the best way or even a good way, but it’s worked well for me so far.

I really feel like my confidence overall is improving, and I can tell that I've made some excellent progress compared to how I was at the start of this journal. I've used some situational openers that have felt natural to use. I've also befriended another guy on campus by just going up and started talking to him, and in the past I would never do something like that. So I know my social confidence is increasing.

While I'm in set I am much more comfortable and confident than I used to be. I've told a few of the same little stories, one-liners, and jokes a few times now, and they seem quite smooth and can generate some laughs. The more times I tell a story, the easier it is and the more it seems to just flow, feel natural and come off smooth.

I still need to work on eye contact though. I need to hold eye contact a bit better than I have been. I often will break eye contact first, not always, but I do still tend to do that sometimes. But overall, I'm very happy with the progress that I've been making lately.

This past week at school, I got 2 phone numbers and made several other approaches, and that's by far the best week that I've ever had since I've been going there.

A question that I have

Would any of you recommend asking the girl if she has a boyfriend while I’m talking to her? So far, I have never asked them that question. If the conversation seems to be going well, I just go ahead and try for the #close. I was thinking that maybe I should ask them if they are single first to cut down on the number of flakes. I suppose at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter, but it’s just that I try to figure out why some girls flake, and at least if I knew they had a bf then it would make sense.

So far, I’ve found out that “lab girl” and “Ukrainian blondie” both have had bfs.

Anyways, so much for streamlining the journal!

It seems to me that you're probably not raising enough excitement and with what little excitement you've created, you dissipate through needless chit chat texts. You can think of this as a linear, one dimensional scale. What actions are you taking to raise her excitement level to see you? You want to continue to do things that raise the level of excitement but avoid things that releases this level of excitement on their own.

The biggest mistake the guys who go the 'sexual excitement route' make is that they think that women function exactly like us. For us to be 'sexually excited', we often need sexually oriented stimulus; we want to see skin. We want to talk about sex. We need girls to behave as they do in male oriented porn flicks. And for us to 'release' this excitement, it also must be done through sexually oriented acts. While this can be true for women to a certain extent, they simply do not function this way.

Ever skim through the type of novels that turn women on? And if they're into porn, what type of things turn them on? Ever see female oriented porn? Sex is a part of it but a facet that men often ignore (because these things often do nothing for them) is fantasy, the mystery, and the excitement. Those novels focus on the type of men (character, history, as well as looks) and relationship interactions (even if it's a ONS) And because their excitement can be raised by other means than what would turn on a 14 year old boy, their excitement can also be released by other means than just an orgasm. A simple text chat. A phone conversation. . . all these things can be 'gratifying' enough for them. Men mistaking identify such behaviors as "flakes" or "teases" but all they're doing is riding their little emotional roller coaster that turns them on and then releases that energy.

So the idea is to raise their energy to a high level and then provide a path that allows them to release that energy only through ways that gratifies both you and the girl. Are you following? If you got that number by suggesting a future meeting, then the conversations or texts that follow is ABOUT THAT MEETING and you keep it short. Anything else adds to the dissipation of the excitement she had for that meeting. Don't let her turn you into a chat buddy; she can do plenty of this with her female friends, the guy who shampoos her hair, the guy who presses her espresso, etc . . . The main characters of those girly novels are NOT chit chatters.

The "freeze out" concept in pick up doesn't exist for no reason. However, it's often misapplied and also too often done out of negative emotions rather than out of strategy. Guys will think, "Well, this girl is ignoring me so I'll ignore her." No . . . the idea is if she desires your company, (texting = company. Phone conversations = company) then you provide a better path for her. . . one that is gratifying for you as well.

1. Do not continue needless 'chit chat', thinking that chit chatting with her is better than nothing. Do not think that this might warm her up for a meeting. It's actually the opposite. You are in effect providing her 'company' but you are not receiving her company.

2. So the answer to this:
is "I'll give you a ring after exams." - and that's it. Then you go have your fun. If she contacts you, keep it short. Give her brief idea of the fun you're having and let her know that you'll give her a ring after exams are over . . . and that's it. She doesn't need a 'personal exam coach'.

3. This is a nice thing you did . . . but it's again a 'no reason chit chat'. You got her number to go take her out. Stop beating around the bush, focus, and communicate to her about the one on one event. That's it. It's when she complies with your requests and have set up a date and time you can add, "By the way, good luck with your essay. . ."

4. Again, you could have been more focused but you hooked her. Great . . . so do what you can to continue to raise her excitement for the meeting and avoid dissipating this energy.
This isn't rough . . . this is funny. These things happen to EVERYBODY . . . and it happens more to those who game more and open more. Those reports that you read of knuckleheads who claim that nobody ever flakes on them or that they never run into awkward situations are liars. It's far better to accept what happened, laugh about it, and better prepare yourself for the next round than to ignore what happened, blame it on a girl's "bitchiness", and continue the cycle of ignorance.
Excellent analysis of your interaction but remember why you're doing any of this in the first place. If those guys you're hanging out with are helping you progress, fine. If they're in the way, let them go their own way.
^This is fuel for the 'numbers are worth shit' gang. You're getting numbers through an etiquette protocol. You're polite and you make a request; if they wish to be polite, they'll accept your request. Sure, you might get some dates out of it but following etiquette is rarely exciting. Instead, raise her emotional levels and anchor those emotions to a 2nd meting. Then stick with it . . .
^This is not why they are flaking and the answer is no. Do not introduce ideas that get in the way of your mission. Instead, introduce ideas that raise her excitement level to comply with your mission. If she wants you to know that she has a boyfriend, she will let you know.

Hey Kasabi,

Thanks a lot for such a well thought out and detailed reply, I really do appreciate it. Excellent feedback.
Even though I know you've sent me the link before that explained that I should be setting up a day 2 when I talk to her and then get the #, I know I didn't do it for these two recent # closes. The horse rider chick convo I just screwed up and didn't do it, and the summer dress girl all of a sudden told me she had to go and meet a few people in her class, and at that point I hadn't talked about a day 2, so I just had to get the # quickly before she left.

In the future, I'm going to have to talk about the day2 much earlier in the interaction, and not make getting the number the last thing I do before I leave her.

But yeah, I know exactly what you're saying here. I need to raise more excitement. I guess to do that I should make my intentions clearer, make better eye contact, look at her in a more playful/sexual way. And as I've read before, even try to become aroused myself and picture sex with her, and hopefully she'll be able to feel some of that energy. But other than that, I'm not sure how to build more excitement.

Other things I guess I can keep in mind are: Keep stronger eye contact, avoid interview questions, make more statements than questions, keep it fairly short, leave on a high note, find out what she likes and set up that day 2, be unapologetic or don't hide what my desires are.

Perhaps subconsciously, I come across as kind of neutral to improve my chances of getting the number and to avoid rejection. Maybe it's a bit of a self defence mechanism kicking in to protect my ego from failure.

And yea, keep texts short. I write texts like I write this journal, basically short fuckin' essays. Not good. Keep the texts short and keep them focused on the day 2 meeting and not much else.

I should have done that, and thinking back this reply would have made the most sense. But in this case, since she's an international student, she was leaving to go back home for the summer right after exams. But I know what you mean, and point taken.
Well, it dissipated! lol .... she flaked too. I cringe as I write this, and I can't believe this chick flaked on me too. When I first texted her she said "nice to hear from you". I made a joke about how I was a bad texter and next time I saw her she could give me pointers, she says "I'm definitely up for the challenge". I said we should hang out/get a drink and she says "sounds like a good idea". And she still flaked.

I texted her yesterday morning with the intention to ask her out and set a time when she replied. Well 8 hours later she replies telling me she's working on an essay. I tell her sounds like she needs a break, and ask to meet her Thurs (tomorrow) to chill for a bit. She never replied, and that text was sent last night. I'm really kind of baffled by this. Here's what I'm thinking:

- it would make sense that she has a bf, it seems almost all girls do
- I second guess myself and think maybe she thinks I'm a nice/cool guy but too old

Yeah, my text game sucks, but I really find it hard to believe that it's that horrible that it turned her off that much. Man, in the past you wouldn't believe some shit I did/said to girls and was still able to lay them. I've found that if a girl is truly into you, then you have a lot of leeway for making errors until it turns her off that much.

So that's why I'm thinking that she just wasn't that into me from the beginning. But you should have seen her when I was talking to her. She was almost constantly fidgeting with her dress, her bra, moving around, crossing and uncrossing her legs, smiling, the works. Maybe all these chicks have boyfriends.

Wanna hear another fail? Through text I found out International girl also has a bf. She texted me and asked me for some advice. Long story short, she tells me she has a bf back home, and that she went out this past weekend and screwed around with another guy. Meanwhile she told me how much work and shit she had to do.

So she goes out, fools around with this guy, and tells me she likes both, but doesn't want to hurt the new guy because she thinks he likes her. I was sort of put off by the whole thing, and I didn't care at that point what happened, so I told her forget about your new guy, come out with me and we'll have some fun and I'll make you forget about him.

I sort of said it in a joking way, and I continued and basically told her if you really don't want to hurt anyone, then just be honest, it's the best way. And she replies back saying that she thinks of me as a good friend, but not in another way! lol ... man, I'm fuckin' failing left, right, and center.

She didn't want to tell new guy, she just wanted to fool around with him now, then dump him later on. I told her well it's your conscience, but if you really don't want to hurt either guy, just be honest, and I left it at that.

So every girl/number that I've got so far has ended up already having a bf. The only one I don't know for sure is summer dress girl that just flaked on me, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

Man, things were easier back in the bar days. It all happened so fast, and there was no time for me to cockblock myself with boring texts or fucking around chit chatting back and forth. Most of the time I'd just ask them what they were doing after the bar, and invite them back to my place for a few more drinks, it was all too easy.
lol yea, it was funny. It stung a bit at the time, but I'd love to have that little interaction captured on video like some of the day game vids that are on youtube. I'd love to sit back and watch that one!
That's the truth. I just got finished reading an entry from a guy who was replying to some post in general questions and he was saying that he NEVER gets flakes. lol, what a crock of shit. I'm fucking up, but at least I'm being real and honest. That's like me saying I ALWAYS get the #close, well that's maybe because I've only tried fuckin' four of them!

I was thinking the exact same thing. When I say "it's been nice talking to you, we should talk again", of course she's gonna say "yes". Then it's almost like I "trick" them to give me the number. I should be setting up the day 2 so that at least they've agreed to something and I'm getting the number for a reason.

I'm telling you, I'm not used to all these fails, and I'd be lying if I said that it hasn't kind of shaken my confidence a bit and caused me to second guess myself a bit. I mean even if I look 27-28, to many 20yr olds that's still "old", and the reality is I'm a fair bit older than that. I know I'm trying to play a tough game here, and the odds sure are stacked against me.

I'm trying to be positive, I know I can do it. I do get IOIs, even though anyone reading this may start to question that because of all these flakes. But like I said, to be fair to me, 3 out of the 4 chicks I've closed have had bfs already, and maybe summer dress girl too, who knows.

I guess If I make my intentions more clear when I talk to them and ask for the day 2, then some might stop me there and tell me that they're not single. The way I do it, I just make it sound like we'll have some more fluffy harmless conversation, so for them I guess it sounds innocent enough to give me their number.

I wish I could go back and edit some shit out of some previous posts. Since I've met a few people from this site in real life, there's some info in this journal that I'd rather not have out there now. I'm almost considering starting a new journal, or even starting a new user name. I don't know, maybe it's not that big of a deal. We'll see.

But anyways dude, awesome advice as usual. Thanks!

You don't need to "try" to do anything. If you converse about the things that interest both parties, you will both naturally make better eye contact and be more playful with each other. If you are still discussing geological locations of buildings, neither of you will make much eye contact. Buildings are not sexy . . .

Go back to "I Like You, You Like Me." - This is the type of interaction that boyfriends/girlfriends have. This is the type of conversation that gets girls excited and they don't even know why . . . they just think, "I just met a guy and we just click." You don't need to stand there like some sexually uncontrolled monkey yapping about her ass or tits. (Although there is a time and place for this, meeting a girl for the first time in a library is not it.) Nor do you have to sit there forcing yourself to get excited over a chat about buildings and the weather. Make a connection. Connecting is exciting.


You're probably right.
How did I know this? LOL . . .


Desperation is not a good strategy . . .
Read ^this carefully. You are providing her with EXCUSES to see you instead of getting her EXCITED to see you. The guys who go the "I am a horny guy who wants to fuck you" route don't realize that this is ONE facet of a man's life. You tell me, what is a 'FUN & ATTRACTIVE' man? . . . and how does that man express these qualities? Women aren't mind readers so you have two mediums; it's the things you do and the things you say . . . and that's it. When you raise a bunch of possible fun events in your conversations, you say more about yourself than you do about those events. So you NEVER "hang out and get a drink". What the hell is "Hang out"? You hang out with your buddies, your grandma on Easter, and little sister when she comes to town. "Hey, you ever go to _____? They make these little cocktails in flasks like a chemistry experiment. . . " - Now this leads to a conversation . . . and that conversation leads to interest. And when you decide to go, it's not YOU ASK, SHE ANSWERS. Instead, you will both come to a conclusion that you need to 'check it out'. And all there is left for you to say is, "So let's check it out." - Bring her into the decision making process and give her the information needed to make that decision. (You're a fun guy and there's this fun place . . . )
Nothing baffling about it. You're boring her to death. Here's another thing about a 'specific event'. If you ask her to 'hang out', hanging out is the event. So of course if she continues with her bs, she's not missing out on anything; she can 'hang out' with you any time. If you have a fun event in mind it's, "Woh, sucks for you. Good luck." - And it's assumed you're going to have a blast on your own picking up other chicks. (Yes, it does suck for her.)
The idea is to "GET HER INTO YOU". If you recall your past and think about it . . . I am sure you will recall things that you did either consciously or unconsciously that relates to pick up. You GOT HER EXCITED. You ATTRACTED her. Then sure, you have some leeway but if you know what continues to excite her, why leave it up to luck? Continue to excite her . . .
Non factor. Your following story is proof.
This sucks . . . but this is what happens to the guy who talks about buildings and texts endlessly back and forth. She feeds off of your attention. She knows she has it. So she goes with it. She'll pose the same story to the guy who shampoos her hair.
It's becoming redundant but again, go back to "I like you, you like me." - You don't TELL the girl that you'll make her forget about him. You don't tell her, "come out with me." Just DO IT. Make her forget about them. Make her come out with you by demonstrating that you're a fun guy who does fun things. Make her interested in you by engaging with her. Stop "telling" them what you're going to do and start doing what you want to do.


And of course now, you realize that this is something her hair dresser would tell her. Play the role of a boyfriend and you will become one. Play the role of a hair dresser and you will become one.
One night stands are exciting aren't they? You think her hair dresser would ask her, "Hey, what are you doing after this, you want to come over to my place?" There are many ways to raise this type of interest outside of the ONS realm.
Yes, yes, yes . . . so do it.

Early on, I wrote that 'women don't read minds'. Well, I'm not sure if that's entirely true. I can't really explain it but they do seem to have 'radars' for various things. Sometimes I don't even get a chance to talk about day two's before they start finding reasons to share numbers; it's as if they know that's where the conversation is headed. You wrote that you need to 'remind yourself to make eye contact, etc . . . " If you already have in mind that you're planning to meet her for day two, you will already be more engaged with her in every way. Sometimes that's enough . . .

Forget about your 'age', 'confidence', 'boyfriends', etc . . .

1. It's incorrect analysis.
2. It's the type of analysis that do not lead to a better strategy.
Usually, they'll tell you this out of guilt after they F you.
Nobody gives a shit. Just go out there and get some. . .

Sorry for the really long reply man. I just got a new laptop, typed up a long reply, then thought I cut and pasted it to wordpad because I had a problem with the browser .... well I lost the whole thing.... pissed me off! ... so this second version ended up being even longer ...sorry
I hear you, and for the most part I did that. With horse rider girl, I found that when we were kids we went to the same horse back riding camp, and the conversation went well when we were talking about that. But, I didn't think it would really be a good idea to ask her if she wanted to go riding with me sometime as a day 2. Who knows, maybe it could have been an idea, but that's certainly not something I thought would have been practical to ask at the time.

With summer dress girl, we both play/used to play soccer, but I didn't think asking her to go to a park to kick a ball around would be a good idea even though we both enjoy the game.

I need other type of 'fun' things to do that would be more practical for a first 'date'.

I thought I did make somewhat of a connection with them. With the one girl we had horse back riding and an appreciation for country/nature together, and the other one we had a bit of sports, like soccer in common.

Come to think of it, I guess I could have asked horse rider girl to go to a scenic park or something to walk around and enjoy the outdoors...

I know what you're saying, but I need to think of more of these 'fun' events to think of and suggest during the conversation.
You're right, I see what you mean. Although I agree with what you say, I still find it hard to believe that I'm not 'exciting' her enough to want to see me again. Perhaps in the past I've always relied on the fact that the girl will be physically attracted to me, and as long as I don't come across as some blithering idiot, then I should be able to score her. I suppose I would generally assume she'll be attracted to me, and the rest should just fall into place.

That's why I find it hard to believe that something as trivial as a 'boring' text conversation is enough to turn her off if she was attracted to me in the first place, even if the attraction was purely physical.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just trying to process this in my mind and I'm trying to make sense of it all.
I guess this is where my problem is. Because if I put myself in the girls place, and I'm talking to her and think she's good looking, then it almost doesn't matter what she says or what she might suggest we do, I'll be into it because I find her attractive and I want to spend more time together with the idea that it will progress into a more intimate interaction next time, or the time after. I realize guys and girls are different, but still ...

Perhaps in the past I've relied too much on my looks and expecting the girl to want me based on that, and I haven't cared or put the time in to really try to impress her with what I say.

But again, to be fair, a loud bar is a completely different setting than a school bench or library. But I'm pretty good at keeping conversations going, I can have a bit of an animated personality at times, I'm not boring to talk to, even though it's funny to think that I sit around and talk about buildings, weather and architecture! Don't get me wrong, when I open with those 'boring' things, the conversation moves away from that within the first 30 seconds or sooner.

But I'll admit, the brief conversations that I do have are usually quite neutral, we talk about 'normal' things like school, classes, majors, sports/hobbies, and things like that. But in addition to that, I always have a few little stories or one-liners to tell so I always get them laughing at least once or twice.

Sure, what I'm doing isn't perfect, not by a long stretch, but I still find it hard to believe that it's the conversation, or lack or 'exciting' things that's causing these flakes. I'm just confused I guess, and I am going to take every bit of your advice and change the things I talk about and try to make things more exciting and build a connection and find a fun event that we can both do that we have in common, but that initial physical attraction still has to be there.

And perhaps I'm just getting a bit down on myself and keep going back to the age thing, or trying to think of a reason why she's not physically into me, because I seem to talk the way that I always used to, and I still managed to get laid before.

Not every single one of my lays ways an extremely drunken ONS, though there were a lot of those nights. I'd meet and talk to girls at small house parties, get togethers at my place, and sometimes I'd just meet a girl there, and the next week or the week after I'd end up sleeping with her. And the same goes for bars too. Sometimes I'd walk away from the bar with a phone #, talk once or twice on the phone during the week, then meet up at some bar the next weekend and often I'd get them back to my house, or sometimes go to theirs.

I'm hearing what you're saying here, and these are some things that come to mind that I think could work depending if she's into them:

- Pladium (it's a place where they have video games, virtual reality, little 'rides' and all kinds of things like that - it's by a movie theatre)
- mini put, or glow in the dark mini put
- indoor/outdoor go karts
- some 'fun' restaurant/bar where they have games and things like that

So those are a few things I can think of that would be 'fun' events. I can also get myself more familiar with what we have in the city. Besides school/work I don't know a lot of the touristy-type things to do in the city, and that would probably help me a lot when talking about fun and exciting things to do. There are also museums and things like that to check out too, those are probably the types of things that would work.
I do hear you, but again my mind immediately tells me that if she was into me physically like she "should" have been, then she would have put up with a few boring texts because she would have interest in me.
I absolutely agree. But I'm still hung up on the idea that this 'fun event' is what is making or breaking me. I completely agree that if she was 'on the fence' about whether she'd like to go out with me then yeah, doing something fun could very well sway her and make her want to come out. But if she liked me from the start, I should be able to ask her to go play tic tac toe in the hallways and she should agree.

Like I said in my last post, summer dress girl couldn't keep still when she was talking to me. She had a dress on, she moved herself more to face me a few times and uncrossed her legs very briefly, to the point where if I was staring I could probably of seen her panties, then she'd cross her legs back, fidgit with her top, pull on her bra, smiling, everything that PUAs would call IOIs.

Trust me, I'd like to believe that it's my boring texts that would have been the difference between me laying her or not, because that's a fairly easy fix. But I guess I'm looking for something more, like I'm second guessing myself and all those negative thoughts like 'too old' etc creep into my mind.

Maybe I was so used to the bar and having limited conversations that now I'm truly finding out just how important it is in pickup? I don't know, man I'm just kind of confused. Maybe it is, and I really hope that's all it is, but the only reason why I question that is that I know I'm not bad at conversing. I keep the convo flowing, I don't sound like I'm some nervous shcoolboy, I can make them laugh, and even though I'm not talking about 'fun day 2 events', I'm not a dull or boring person to talk to.

But I'm 100% willing to change and do exactly what you're suggesting, and I'll be the happiest guy alive if I find that all I have to do is seed these fun day 2 events and all these chicks that are flaking on me now will all of a sudden be into me. I really hope it's that easy, because like I said, that's something I certainly can change, my age isn't.
True enough.
I read the "I like you, you like me" thread again.

Well, we have a "Jerry's Juice" on campus, so in addition to that, I guess there's those other ideas I listed earlier.

I think the main reason I would ask them to simply 'hang out' is that I felt that it would make the girl feel 'safer' to meet me on campus for the first 'date' instead of having me to pick her up and take her somewhere. Maybe once again I've tried to choose the 'safe route' to avoid rejection and try to make what I'm asking appear harmless.
Yeah, this chick is out screwing around, has two guys on the go, and I'm sitting back playing nice guy and inadvertently taken on the role of her gay hair dresser she asks for advice .... fuck me

So do you think I'd be better off trying for the day 2 on campus at Jerry's juice or a restaurant, or do you think any of the other ideas like pladium, go karts etc are ok for a day 2 as well? .... it's just that outside of Jerrys Juice, there's not a whole lot of 'fun' things to do on the campus property.

I know it will depend on what she's into, but I guess what I'm asking is should I try to build this excitement with mentioning things like pladium, go karts, museum, mini golf, or should I stick to 'fun' things on campus, ie, mainly Jerry's Juice?

I guess come to think of it, as bizarre as it sounds to me, I've had very few 'dates' in my life. Sure I've been out to dinner and movies before, but the vast majority of my experience lies in being at the bars, and small social get-togethers at my place or their place and alcohol was almost always involved.

I've never walked up to a girl to try to pick her up outside a bar, never. So I've never had to plan one of these day 2s, and I guess that's really why I seem to be struggling so much with this. My day 2s were always, 'which bar/whose house are we gonna meet at?'
lol I'm trying man, it's a tough game for me so far, but I am trying! ....

Bench Approach Fail

This was my worst interaction that I've had yet, even worse than my shopping mall kiosk fail.

I approached this girl awhile ago, she's the one that I said had her 'bitch shield' up, because as I asked her to watch my stuff while I got up, she didn't even make eye contact with me.

Well since then, I've seen her in the hallways, and I've caught her looking at me first once or twice, but looks away when I made eye contact with her. I still wasn't 100% sure whether she was just shy and awkward, or just stuck up and bitchy. Well, Thursday I found out!!

She was alone on the bench, and I walked up to the bench beside her and said "hey, how's it going?" ... she had that same sort of deer caught in the headlights look on her face, as she looked up briefly, didn't say a word, nod, or smile, then continued sipping her drink or looking at her phone. She basically looked up, then ignored me.

I was still confused a bit, I'm thinking what's this chicks deal, is she really this shy, or is she going to turn out to be the biggest bitch? Well, since I had already sat down, and I had caught her looking at me before, I had to try once more to find out for sure. I didn't know what to say, so I just said "hey, you're not a blah blah major are you?"....

Well, she didn't budge, she didn't shake her head, she didn't look up, she didn't fuckin' flinch or move. She completely ignored me 100%.

I was sort of shocked, and I'm thinking, wow, is this **** really this stuck up? ... so I just said "Ok, smiley!" and turned away. Well a moment later she turns to me in a bitchy voice and says "Excuse me?" ..... I wasn't going to let this POS of a girl break my frame, so I turned to her in my same happy, friendly tone and said "I said Ok smiley!" with a smile on my face, and turned away.

She had a blank/stupid look on her face, packed up her shit about 10 seconds later and walked away.

Years ago I would have wanted to say more to 'put her in her place'. The truth is, life itself puts people like her in their place. That attitude opened a small window to see her personality, and if that's how she treats people, then life/karma will always take care of them, because in life, you get what give. It's not surprising why I always see her by herself, rarely ever talking to anyone, now it makes sense.

If I had of gotten mad, called her a bitch, then she would 'win', because I would have allowed her to ruin my good mood. But by remaining calm and friendly, and by 'mocking' her by calling her smiley, it showed her that I really didn't care too much about her poor, negative attitude.

Nevertheless, that's the type of shit that most guys fear having happen to them, myself included. But in the end, I survived, I walked away feeling ok about the whole thing, and if anything, it made me a little stronger because now I've dealt with one of the worse rejections that I can probably expect to encounter.

I mean what type of a shitty person responds like that to someone saying "hey, how's it going?" The way I look at it, she did me a favor so I didn't have to waste my time trying to get to know someone who isn't worth getting to know.

Anyways, sure I was a little put off about the whole thing, but now, a few days later, I look back on that and laugh!

Update on Summer dress girl

After she flaked on me when I asked if she wanted to meet up for a drink on campus, I texted her 3 or 4 days later. I said too bad we missed each other last week, wished her luck on her exams, said if I don't bump into you again it was nice meeting you, and have a good summer.

She replied one day later apologizing saying that she's been crazy busy with studying etc, and that she was only on campus one day just to write a test, and said it was really nice meeting me too, and she hopes to bump into me again sometime. I just sent her a text back a few hours later saying simply no worries, it's a busy time of year.

I doubt I'll contact her again.

Today's results

2 approaches, didn't try for the # close

First approach

HB6.5 sitting on the bench. I opened with asking about an 'event' taking place at the school. We had a good conversation lasting maybe 10 minutes or so. I didn't try to # close because she was only somewhat attractive to me, but mostly because she was leaving on vacation for the whole summer.

Second approach

HB8 sitting by herself outside. I sat down near her, waited a few minutes then opened her asking about the same 'event' taking place at the school. We had a really good conversation, and I noticed some IOIs from her. One thing that threw me off was that we were talking about her work (she's a waitress) and she was talking about how all these guys hit on her, and how she rejects them saying she doesn't give out her # etc. I didn't it take it as an IOD, but for some reason just hearing that sort of threw me off a bit.

She was waiting for class, so I sat with her for nearly a half an hour outside. I purposely let the conversation die out 2 times just to test her interest, and each time she initiated conversation back with me by asking me some questions. I won't bore you guys with more details, but we had good eye contact, and we sort of gave each other that little smirk/smile quite a lot as we were talking and as our eyes were locked. It's hard to explain, but I hope you know what I'm saying.

As she was getting up to leave, she took her time. Then she sort of stood in front of me and paused, I said it was really nice talking to her, and we just shook hands. But she sort of stayed in front of me, and it got a tiny bit awkward for a moment. It did seem like she was giving me time to ask her for her #.

After she walked away, I was almost going to shout for her to come back, but I just let her go. I was really kicking myself afterwards for not #closing her.

Anyways, today was the last day of school. I'll probably go there almost each day during exam period to study and try for some more approaches. I am going to summer school, so at least I'll still be around, but there won't be anywhere near the same amount of people, but there will still be opportunity

^There isn't anything particularly right or wrong with what you did; it's pretty funny. However, I don't agree with your analysis. Perhaps, you might express 'assholeness' by ignoring others but younger chicks in particular often do this out of their own nervousness. The fact that you've seen her alone most of the time probably has less to do with her being a 'bitch' and more to do with her social insecurities.
You're combining two different goals into one strategy. You want to make her feel safe and you want to excite her to meet with you. Unfortunately, a 'safe meeting' isn't sexy nor is it exciting. Separate these two goals...

Read what I wrote here:

what-is-the-best-way-to-ask-for-her-pho ... ?highlight

An 'event' on its own is rarely exciting. Juice is just juice and go carts are just go carts. A whale is just a whale but Melville managed to write 700 pages about a whale. You don't need to go that far but I'm sure you can manage to create a fun event out of anything.
^Why not? Don't fall into the 'scorned chick' cycle. Just continue to improve your interaction with her. . . (by the way, you did the whole "good luck on your exams, have a nice summer, nice meeting you, bump into you, bump into me" game. Relax . . .
You lost out on a good opportunity. This is her way of saying, "Look at me! Look at me! Guys hit on me all the time! Why aren't you? And I'm not a whore! Really . . . I turn all those flaky guys down. I don't have a boyfriend. I don't sleep around. . . and I'm even going to stick around here so that you can ask me for my number . . . what are you waiting for?"

A personality is merely a set of behaviors that are repeated enough times to make it a habit. Labeling a self conscious, socially nervous girl a 'bitch' is a behavior. Beating around the bush and waiting for a magical green light is a behavior. You're hoping that by just beating around the bush long enough, a girl might stick her tongue down your throat. Becoming disappointed at the lack of a 'green light' is a behavior. Women are NOT avoiding you and women are NOT making things difficult but you begin interacting with them assuming these things. Remove your assumptions.

If you didn't have a habit for ^these things, you might have arrived at a different conclusion about the behavior of the girl talking about the guys who hit on her at work. You might have even, "My God . . . and here I am thinking that you're a sweetheart. You're a heart breaker . . . Ouch!" - How do you think she would have responded then? She would have told you ALL THE REASONS why she's not a heart breaker and how those guys were all idiots.

What do you suppose this is all about?

monkey-mind-vt59102.html?highlight=

I hear what you're saying, and based on what I wrote, I can see how you might interpret it that way. But I dunno man, I think this is one of those things where you would have to be there to appreciate how it went down. You'd have to see her body language, the look on her face, and how she had her nose kind of in the air and didn't even flinch or acknowledge that I even spoke.

Even a really shy or awkward girl would have at least shook her head, let out a peep, something. This chick really gave off the vibe that she though she was too good to reply.

But anyways, it doesn't really matter, because that's the second time now I attempted to talk to her, and if I ever tried to talk to her again, I'd be flirting with a harassment charge or something!... I'll let some other dude take a crack at that one.
Yea, I definitely still need to work on that one. I can build the comfort, but it's that damn 'fun day 2 event' that I keep stumbling on.
This is definitely a sticking point for me right now. I seem to be able to approach without too much trouble, have decent conversations, but I really have to change the way I go about closing with the number and talking about the day 2 event.
I really tried not to come off as all butthurt over the fact that she didn't reply back to me. I didn't think I'd hear back from her again, so I thought that was going to be the final "nice meeting you" text that I was going to send her. I did it to see how she'd react, if at all.

But I don't know if I will get back to her. I mean she didn't even reply to my text when I asked her for a drink. And you'd think that if she was the least bit interested, she could have taken 10 seconds out of her day to just tell me she's 'crazy busy'.

So she didn't reply at all to me asking her out, and then it took her a full day to reply to my 'have a nice summer' text. Most people that I see have their phones pretty much surgically attached to them, so these long delays don't exactly scream interest to me.

I know part of the PUA 'mantra' is being persistent, but I kind of feel like I'd be chasing her if I send her another text. I mean we've only had a 15 min conversation, and that was 2 weeks ago now. I was sort of surprised by her reply to me, she basically repeated and said everything that I said to her, minus the have a good summer part.

I don't know, maybe I'll try once more. But part of the problem might be that we actually live a 1hr+ drive from each other. So maybe she realizes that and figures that since school is over, seeing each other isn't going to be all that practical. Who knows, I guess I could take one last kick at the cat and ask her out for a day 2 once exams finish up.

Yeah, I did mess up on this one. It's weird, perhaps its a tiny bit of self sabotage kicking in? Fear of success? I've number closed ones before that I didn't get half the positive vibe that I got from this girl. I really don't know what was going through my head on that one.
Yeah, it's that god damn green light that I keep waiting for. Perhaps I slipped back into AFC mode, I don't know. I certainly know in the past I've waited and waited for that flashing green light and siren to start going off. I guess old habits die hard.
Yea, I like that. That would have been something good to say. You know what one of my problems is as well? I don't think I'm very good at teasing a girl, or being kind of playful in that sort of way. I can be funny and sarcastic, crack some jokes, but I think in my mind I worry too much about 'offending' a girl if my playful comment towards her is taken wrong.

I really need to read a book like "being playful and teasing for dummies", I'd get a lot out of something like that.
Jeez man, I'm usually horrible at interpreting things like that. I'm either pretty accurate, or I concoct something really bizarre and right out of left field. I've never been good at interpreting anything philosophical or analyzing the meaning of poems and things like that. I always seem to take my own meaning out of it, or interpret it in a really fucked up way! lol ..

But since you posted that right after the fact that I didn't #close that HB8, I'd have to guess that it means that whichever option that I choose, there will be a consequence. And perhaps that even though something bad could happen which ever option I choose, I am the 'hunter', and I'm out there to hunt, so I should have shot that damn monkey! ... so I should have #closed that HB, because that's why I'm doing this, and that's what I was out there to do in the first place. If I tried to #close, I could have been rejected, sure, but by not trying for the close, I lost out on something potentially good, which is the same as having something bad happen to me. I don't know, I guess the bottom line is shoot the fuckin' monkey, and #close a HB when I have a good interaction like that!

Today's results

1 approach and #close

I got a new laptop, and I was having trouble connecting to the wireless network at the school. I went to the computer help desk, and talked to this girl about the problem.

The specifics of the problem don't matter, but when we were done, I noticed that she seemed like she wanted to keep talking. So I stood there off to the side of the counter with her and talked to her for about 10 mins. I asked her if she's going to get in trouble for talking to me for so long while the other dude was helping the people who came up. She said it's ok, and that her shift was over in 5 mins. I asked her what she was doing afterwards, and she said she was going to meet her best friend that she hadn't seen in a few months.

She had about 20 mins after her shift, so I asked her if she wanted to grab a drink, sit down and chill for a bit. She agreed, and we went on our 'insta-date' and talked for another 20 mins or so until her friend texted her that she was pulling into the campus and ready to pick her up.

She definitely seemed interested in me, for sure, and we exchanged numbers, but unfortunately I didn't set up any specific day 2 while we were talking. That's still a sticking point. But we did talk about getting together later on in the week. I'll call her 'computer lab girl'. She's very cute, a HB8 for sure.

Another #close that I forgot about

Last week I also #closed another girl that was in a different 'lab' class that I have. She has a cute face, but for my type she'd be a lot better if she lost about 20 lbs or so. I'd call her a HB6.5. I didn't even mention it, because we exchanged numbers mainly for the reason to study together for the final exam that's coming up. I could tell she's been kind of onto me for awhile, but she's not really my type, and I haven't paid her all that much attention. She's a nice enough person, but I doubt anything will end up coming out of it. If anything, I may end up meeting up with her to go over some last minute notes before the exam.

1. The idea isn't to filter out the 'interested' from the 'uninterested', the idea is to GET THEM interested.
2. Luke warm is not interesting. Have a nice summer, I'll see you sometime. Do well in your exams. (This is what her aunt tells her.)
3. This cat string theory topic comes up once in a while in this forum. Most don't seem to realize that in order for a cat/chick to really miss something, they have to really like something. If you're giving her a time off from discussions about exams, building locations, and proposals to 'hang out', what do you think she's missing out on?
4. So get to the point, say/do your thing, and just be satisfied that everything is the way it should be.
^Seriously? You've waited 2 weeks, shot off random, irrelevant, and plastic feel good messages, then pounced a 'let's go for a drink' text. Not only is this a snail's pace, it's not much of a chase.
Since we're both understanding this analogy, allow me to refine it a bit more because I'm realizing that it's not entirely accurate. I think we can both agree that she gave LOTS of green lights. You're waiting for her to shove you into the passenger seat and start driving the car herself.
Don't you have any nieces or nephews or younger siblings? They are SUPPOSED to be 'offended'. That's the idea. That's why it's funny. They are SUPPOSED to go through the emotional roller coaster. Some take it well, some don't. Either way, they all bounce back with an ice cream cone.
Isn't interesting that your reaction for this silly monkey story is similar to your reaction with chicks? "I'm like this, I'm like that. She's like this, she's like that. I was like this, I was like that. Isn't life a mystery?" - Why not just answer. Why not just do?
1. Assumptions.
2. Guesses.
3. Wishing/thoughts/imagintion for reckless behavior.
4. Nervousness because you know it's reckless.
5. Regrets.

Read the last post I made on that thread and try once more. I'll pm you my thoughts afterwards.

I know what you're saying here.
lol ... I just meant 'chasing' in the sense that I may appear like I'm keeping after her without too much interest being shown back. But it's true, I have let a lot of time pass, so I'll contact her once more and just ask her out. The worst that can happen is that I get brushed off again, she makes an excuse, or just doesn't answer. I can live with that.
lol yea, it was pretty bad on my part. Just for fun, I can take it even a step further:

She put me in the driver seat, put on my seatbelt, took my hand with the keys in it and put them in the ignition and turned to start the car. I still waited. She then grabbed my hand, put it on the steering column and put the car into drive. At that point I was waiting for her to reach down to press on my foot which was on the accelerator to make the car go forward. I waited, the car idled, and eventually the car ran out of gas. She got out and started to walk, leaving me in the car to analyze what went wrong! ..
Something I need to work on. I have no problems being 'playful' like that, but I usually have to get to know them a little first. But I know that being playful like that right from the start can make things go better overall. I'll need to constantly be aware of little things that I can 'pounce on' to tease her early in the interaction.

WARNING!! - If anyone besides Kasabi is actually reading this, these next two posts don't have anything to do with my journal!! lol The next 2 posts pertain to a philosophical exercise/problem from this thread: 1-vt59102.html?postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
When I wrote my 'answer' to the monkey story, I only read it once, and glanced at the replies on the first page only. I saw it was a 30 page thread and just went with the first thing that came to my mind, as I was trying to relate it to my journal and how I failed to #close that HB8 that I had a good conversation with.

I guess this is where I have a problem with philosophy and interpretation of things like that. The way that I think, I did answer it already. That was how I related it to my journal and the interaction that I had.

I've never taken a philosophy course in my life, I have no idea about it at all. I don't know the 'rules', if there are any, I don't even know how to approach it. For better or worse, my mind is wired in a different way I guess and much of it seems far too ambiguous for me to make sense of what it's trying to accomplish.

But having read what I have, I guess I now know that the 'right' answer isn't "shoot the fuckin' monkey!". Although to me, taking the story literally, and relating it to my journal, makes the most sense.
After I wrote my reply, I did read through more of the thread. I didn't read everyone's reply, but I did read a good majority of them, and I got to about page 17. I read the argument/debate that was going on, and I can't say that the whole thing is any clearer after having read what I did. I've never heard of a 'koan' until now.

I guess when I read the monkey story, my mind looks for 'rules', I look for some kind of equation where I can solve for X. Then I'll know I have the 'right' answer. Or, I'll look for several variables or numbers, something that I can plot on the X and Y axis, and make a graph out of it then I can analyze and look for patterns to come to some sort of conclusion. I guess I look for rules, for clear cut answers so that when I do find the answer, I can be certain that it is 'right'. Abstract thinking has never been a strong point of mine, and I already know from what I've read that any type of a long drawn out 6 paragraph analysis that I might type out isn't going to be 'right'.

Even more confusing, at least to me, is all those people posting "the answer is already here in the thread", but being very vague about it and not really saying what that answer is. Is there even an answer? To me, it seems that it's just a philosophical question to ponder, a thinking exercise perhaps, or something that has different meaning to different people depending on what your views about life and the universe are.

But I'll take a stab at it though, even if it's just for giggles. I'll read a little about what a 'koan' is, and I'll read through the thread again and try to "find the answer" in those first 7 or 8 pages. But perhaps that defeats the purpose, perhaps it's 'best' for me to find it by thinking of it myself, instead of going back through the thread and finding what looks to me like the best reply.

I really don't know, just by reading the replies, I can already tell that things like that will end up just frustrating me, because I already know, almost whatever I reply with, it's not going to be 'right'.

If I had taken Philosophy 101 or some sort of introductory reading into what it's all about, I might be able to appreciate something like this more, and have an understanding of what it's trying to accomplish, or what someone is supposed to get out of it if they approach it correctly.

And sadly, I read your last post in the thread, and I have no idea what you mean! lol . seriously man, I really struggle with this sort of thing. It's like I sit there and read a few pages of the thread, find that I'm clueless and I'm sitting there wiping the drool from my chin! ... its like my brain sends me back a message saying "does not compute!" ...But let me take a little break, sit back, read your post as well as the first 10 pages over again, and I'll take a crack at it, just for fun.