i wouldnt feel comfortable gaming at a lesbian clubbing...it comes with the fear of being killed

i think i decided not to go there..is she into me? yes. but i doubt that she is unhappy or ready to leave her guy, she just enjoys flirting on a harmless, non-dangerous level..starting "something" at this stage bears more potential of it all going wrong, than the magical event of her seeing the light and leaving the dude. so i guess it makes more sense to look elsewhere until she is single again.

If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always had.

well to be honest my problem in the last two years always was that i always got to know chics that were either in a relationship or just had ended a relationship..they always were emotionally unavailable one way or the other..

so grasping your advice in doing something else than i have always done, in this instance, would be to leave this alone..

Great point, and the ethics of pick up do deserve consideration, if only to solidify your own internal values.

I think that a best friend's sister and a prostitute are both fair game (though you had better be willing to lose your best friend, and I don't pay money for sex).
Your real concern seems to be: If you do unto others what you would not like them to do to you, how can you be morally justified?

That's a good question to bring up. I'll start with a personal anecdote, then attempt to bring it full circle to hypothetical ethics.

My longest LTR, which was a healthy, fulfilling relationship (until the end, which drove me to PU), was the most natural game I have ever used. We clicked on all cylinders, and came to each other so easily, but we were both in a relationship at the time.

We subtly flirted, escalating without cheating until the tension grew too high. We kissed once, and once that seal was broken, we were sneaking around our friends making out in the corners of Disneyland (we visited while on an overnight trip for a sport). It was fun.

I broke up with my girlfriend at the first opportunity, she broke up with her boyfriend almost a week later and we ended up dating for 2 years.
Was that cheating morally wrong? On first glance, yes, but it led to the most fulfilling relationship of my life. How can I reconcile those conflicting ideas?

I theorize that many people, especially hot girls, are in relationships for their "emotional blanket" quality. There is no genuine connection, but the man becomes a dumpster for all her emotional problems, and the sex is nice too.

When a true man of value comes, women who are in a "blanket relationship" are immediately drawn to him. He is superior to their boyfriend, and they see no moral problem with cheating.

You suggest that the man, by encouraging the girl to cheat, bears the responsibility for the sin, and loses his own integrity. I disagree.

I think that the man, by having value and presenting it, will get the girl. The guilt that she feels afterward is an expression of "I'm dating my boyfriend, but I like other guys better. Why am I still with him?"

Her dilemma there can easily be solved by breaking up with the boyfriend, because she has found that she prefers men of higher value. If she stays with him, she is being incongruent, claiming that she likes men of high value, but will stay with one with low value.

That's all her problem. The high value man accepts her decisions, if she chooses to stay with him and live with guilt, that's as justified as breaking up with him and recognizing that she doesn't want to date him.

WHAT IF IT'S YOUR GIRLFRIEND? What if my girlfriend decided I wasn't good enough and cheated on me with some dude at a club?

I don't think it would happen, but supposing it did. By cheating on me, she has said "I prefer this man over you. He is higher value." And to that I say, "Well you better go over there then." Any girl that cheats on me should end our relationship, I don't want her.

If she hides it: Well, she should feel guilty. She has made a choice by cheating, but won't stand by it congruently by leaving me. But at the same time, I have no idea. So logically, what I don't know can't hurt me, at least until I know. At the time when I know, I'll find that she was incongruent that whole time, implying that I was her first choice when in fact I was not. That would make me furious that she tried to stay with me after that act.

My argument isn't airtight here, debate is necessary to solidify my opinions. Let me know what parts aren't working and I'll clarify.

Every man knows deep inside what is fundamentally wrong or right, we can rationalize it all we like but we can't lie to ourselves.

Every bad deed weighs us down, every good deed brings us up.

Think about it.

_________________
"Stay hungry, stay healthy, be a gentleman, believe strongly in yourself and go beyond limitations.” - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Well, if you aren't up to discuss I won't try to force it.

Every man does know their own right/wrong individually. Make your own ethics and follow them, don't let anyone else judge you by their standard.

Thanks for bringing up the issue.

I'm with you Slip...

I don't knowingly or intentionally game a married lady - BUT, if she's made the initial contact, it's game on once I find her motives with a few qualifiers.

A fiance'? A boyfriend? A 'significant other'? I don't give a fuck.

How do I know this chick isn't my dream woman? How do I know she's not the anti-game? My 'match'? How will I ever know unless I've tried? And - if her relationship is truly strong - I won't have any success with her to begin with... so in that light - I'm HELPING her.

Hell, the entire PUA community are givers. We create relationships after we've done our worst. Example - a PUA meets a girl, f-closes that same night, agrees to call and does the slow fade to black... She's bitter as hell. Cool - she just had a wakeup moment and won't loet that shit happen again... SO, the next guy to actually break down her walls - will be the right guy and they'll get married. We make relationships people!

(Stats, morals, ethics are all in the eye of the beholder, and can be manipulated accordinly in most cases...)

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Women are like ceramic tile.... if you do the prep work, and lay them properly the first time...you can walk all over them for years to come.

Unfortunately I don't really have the time to go into it in that kind of depth right now Slip, if we were sitting around having a few beers on a Friday night I'm sure we would talk each other under the table but all I wanted to achieve here was to make the guys reading this consider the cost versus the benefits, I'm not trying to prove you wrong, like I said, I would be a hypocrite if I said it was wrong.

All I'm saying is, we need to do what we know is right and if we are conflicted about it then we have our answer.

_________________
"Stay hungry, stay healthy, be a gentleman, believe strongly in yourself and go beyond limitations.” - Arnold Schwarzenegger

ok..so i went out to a club...by pure coincidence she was there with a girlfriend of hers..when i passed by her, she sort of grabbed me to the side to say hi...i was surprised, gave her kisses on the cheek, smiled, asked her briefly whether she was having fun and had to continue down the stairs as people were waiting behind me and it was getting crowded..

as the evening passed by, it so happened that i bumped into an old affair...we made out heavily, not sure whether she saw it or not..

i now want to send her a text on fb saying that it was a nice surprise seeing her and hope next time will be more than a "quickie"..

suggestions on what do write exactly??

Hit her with honesty.

If she responds, then game. But this time, I'd seriously just tell her the exact emotion you felt when you saw her.

The non-game would be my game approach, seriously.

_________________
Women are like ceramic tile.... if you do the prep work, and lay them properly the first time...you can walk all over them for years to come.

thanks for the reply!

she already knows that i find her attractive (and vice versa)..i cant be too direct, i am sure it will put her off..she is flirting in a way, but she is not crossing any boundaries..

i wrote her telling her that i enjoyed the surprise, but thought the encounter was too short..

she responded by saying that she is full of surprises and asked me how i liked it there..

folks..under usual circumstances i would ask her out..but in this case i cant..i really dont know what do write...lol..

Define your goal.

Then mark the path to that goal and don't deviate.

Incessant texting/IMing/Emailing does nothing for me unless I'm going to fuck her. Otherwise, it's mental masturbation to me.

Nobody can tell you what to do - we can only offer suggestions based on our own experiences, however varied they are... Just find your goal with this woman.

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Women are like ceramic tile.... if you do the prep work, and lay them properly the first time...you can walk all over them for years to come.

well thats the thing! the goal would be to get rid of her guy and marry her! no, it would be to date her/get to know her..

i could lure her into that by inviting her to my place before some clubbing along with other friends of mine so that it sounds "safe" and she isnt crossing any boundary..but i dont like the idea of creating the illusion of meeting up as friends..

so what i would hope for is to keep in touch, keep her interested in me and hope that she either has a weak moment and wants to see me in a non-friendship scenario or ditches the guy and wants to see me because she is single again..

I can't help you - I have no desire to keep a chick on a leash hoping she gets rid of a dude.

I'm not a consolation prize.

Good luck with her.

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Women are like ceramic tile.... if you do the prep work, and lay them properly the first time...you can walk all over them for years to come.

Just cross the boundary. Let her know whats up and invite her out one on one.

She'll almost definitely say no, but leave your intentions out there and leave her alone, go live your life. When she is reaches a different point in her life, she'll remember how sexual you were and come right to you, and you'll have other good things cooking by then.

And if she says yes, escalate and close. Have fun.