Problem with modern day “Natural PUA material” is that they focus on explaining why your shit at game, how society has moulded you into who you are, How your mindsets are all developed from the thousands of years of evolution. As much as this is intresting and up for debate on whether its right or not. Its not usefull in any sense to the viewer who is trying to better themselves at game.

When they go onto talking about techniques of how you should feel and how you should act when gaming and getting into state. Put it this way its like asking a blind guy to imagine the colour red, how can he know what red is if he hasn’t ever seen it before? As much as I believe and support the majority of the material out there. This material will not and I repeat not sink in. It will not register with your subconscious, or your long term memory, it will barely pass through your short term memory. Our brain’s will not process it unless you re read, re watch, re listen to everything they are saying bit by bit. Study it as if your studying an exam, write notes on it, limit yourself to small amounts of material otherwise it will not register in your brain, you will forget it. However even by studying it by parrot fashion to make it register this will never happen in the real world for too many people want immediate results, they want it now! Besides game isn’t meant to be studied like some sort of subject it is meant to be experienced and lived. You may not want to hear this but it takes time to get good.

If people want to make successful courses in PUA they need to realise that the way they’re teaching game naturally is useless unless you already have an intermediate understanding of game and you can relate to what they’re saying. Gurus need to understand the way a person learns is by Experience, going back to basic psychology of (Google this shit) Operant conditioning, classical conditioning and modelling. They need to utilize and import this type of learning into their material in the future in order for their students to actually gain major results where they can act naturally, be rid of their insecurities, always know what to say and most importantly be happy in life as they are successful in every area.

Basically people learn from experience or if information has semantic value to them. Now to become a natural you need to get experience and not in girls ( yeah sure this is a part of it) but experience in life. They need to sit down and think ok so what makes this person who’s so good at girls ( and has no knowledge of the community) work, look at this persons hobbies, what he did at school etc and relate it to their qualities.

Hear me out as I’m going somewhere with this. For example if someone was to come to me with a list of qualities they want as a person such as to be more “Alpha”, confident, cocky and comfortable. I’d suggest at the first chance to join an armature rugby/ American football team, I have my reasons behind this ( I will explain if asked but just take my word for it to keep this post short) I will also shoot anyone down viciously who disagrees with it . Another example is if a person wanted to be more funny and talkative id tell them to get more hobbies, experiment with different genres of music and find a passion in life to become more talkative. For the comedy Id suggest to them to expose themselves to more sitcoms and naturally funny people and write down funny one liners and save them to your drafts in your phone. It’s what I did, it worked for me 
Alright so where does this transition over into the field ? Well say the person has been exposed to these conditions and they’ve gained experience in the suggested areas they would then be able to hold a natural conversation, they’d feel comfortable with themselves with no insecurities and they’d be an attractive person all together. Of course this is one area of game for the other areas their experience would help them gain experience in other fields such as kino which when used right builds sexual tension and gets the job done in my own experience.

I’m not talking about a quick fix cure which is what a lot of outer game looks at which is always built on a cardboard pyramid to sense. I’m talking about setting people up for life to make them a person someone actually wants to be with, someone they can be happy and proud to be.
To sum it up Game needs to be focusing on getting people experience in the areas they are talking about so the students can actually understand what the Gurus are yapping on about.

I gotta say, i co-sign this post..

guys kill me when they say that they dont know what to talk about when talking to a woman.. im like go out and live life.. experience things.. then the conversation will be natural, for obvious reasons..

you seem more natural once you come from an experienced perspective..

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It's Always Forward Im Moving, Never Backwards!

What surprises me the most about people who say they don't know what to talk about when they talk to a woman, is that you can always talk about the woman, until you find something that relates to you. I've got a Community College Education, my sister has a Master's degree in Quantum Physics, I'm a friend with all of her friends, and I can talk to them about Quantum physics, simply by continuing to elicit what their thoughts are, until I recognize something that I can comment on, something I've read, memorize , heard, listened to, or seen somewhere in the world.

I've had this discussion before on this forum. What I basically said then is that there are multiple steps and progressions necessary in order to become "natural". That basically one can't simply shift into natural mode, he must first undo a lot of negative social programming and beliefs, he must model some form of technique which he will use as a crutch to perform some rough basic pickup, he must accomplish some success with women which will bolster his self-esteem and motivate him to sarge more, he must become confident in his ability to pickup women, he must internalize his skills in a personal way, then he must personalize his skill set and incorporate it into his personality, then he must rise above his techniques and gimmicks and simply enjoy interacting with women.

All pua material can be both helpful or harmful, depending on who reads it. The problem is that too many gurus view their material as "the correct way to pickup". There is no right or wrong way to pickup. All puas are unique and their styles and techniques will reflect that. The secret is to not hold fast to what you are taught, but rather to take the new information and add it to that which you already know. Always keep and open mind. And always try to learn more and grow more.
That's the secret to pua. There is always more to learn and always another perspective.

Big like on this post!

I find it to be original, true and helpfull.

Good job writing it!

Take care!

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Common sense, moral and humility will get you anywhere.

I wanted to write a post on a similar topic, but I honestly wasnt able to comprehend it all myself and wouldnt be able to get a clear message across so I didnt bother.
I think its the persons job to do this themselves. If they suck at sex and want to improve. The advice isnt to go watch pornos or get all the advice from another person.

The correct way is to go and fuck a girl, suck at it. Maybe read some theory on it, ask some questions. Then keep doing it til it becomes something that feels natural.

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I went on a rant about this a few weeks ago.

I guess the problem that I have with all of the "natural" game people have been yammering on about lately is that it doesn't solve the problem pick-up was invented to solve. It solves a lot of problems, sure, but the ONE THING that pick-up was meant to fix, preaching "natural" game won't fix.

Pick-up was invented to get fat/skinny, ugly, annoying, socially maladjusted nerds laid. Suggesting to one of these gents that they should just get in the zone and start chatting up the ladies isn't going to help them get better. It is going to fail. Then it's going to fail again. Then it's going to fail again. And again. And again. Until the aspiring pick-up artist decides to live alone and celibate because it's better than working hard at a thing that you don't have the right tools for.

A lot of the stuff people are preaching about natural game is for people who are already pretty okay at picking up girls. It assumes a level of competency that I think misses the point. As pick-up has become more popular, it's been filled with guys who didn't suck with women as badly as the first few generations of pick-up artists did. So the information getting spouted around is for those guys, it's not for the newcomer who is 23 and has never had a girlfriend. Because telling that guy to get in the zone and go talk to HBs isn't going to give him anything he needs to know.

As much as people love to disparage Mystery and his method, what it was designed to do is provide practical, applicable tools to people who don't currently have them. It teaches you, with training wheels, the sorts of things you can say to a girl that will get her to like you. The M3 model is a step-by-step breakdown of the seduction process. I have said it a few times, so I'm going to say it again in big type with boldface:

THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE NEED TRAINING WHEELS.

Natural game doesn't have them. It tosses you in the deep end with the sharks and the lazers and the 10-foot waves and the death crabs and 400lb piranha and says "Cool. Go swimming." For someone who is deathly afraid of women, that fucking sucks.

If someone could break down natural game into a set of instructions that can be easily taught or learned from a book, that would be a valuable tool. Until then, it remains something that only those with a modicum of success with women can hope to use.

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-Monkey's Little Brother, Spud

In This Thread: People complaining about stuff they don't understand.

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Well, help us out, Warped. What piece of this puzzle are we missing? How do I teach someone natural game in a weekend? How do I turn this from an attribute (something you either have or you don't) into a skill (something you can learn from someone else)? Because until we have an effective and efficient way to teach natural game, it's as good as useless.

I can teach someone everything they need to get laid in a few hours and a couple of in-field calibration sessions. If I can't do the same with natural game, I'm failing to see the point.

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Repent now and save 50% on your next divine judgment.
-Monkey's Little Brother, Spud

I actually agree with a lot of stuf provided by the OP & the responses. Not only to say that, but also to give a practical example.

I, myself, have been doing pretty okay with people because I've followed an social-assertive course before starting with PU. After PU 'training', reading and doing pretty much anything related to it, I don't really have to bother anymore about what I do & how I do it, it just becomes natural in a way.

However, last night I was out with some friends and among them, was one guy - around 26 years old.. that definitly needs a lot of help with women. He's following toastmasters to help him with his speaking proces and he can't read social patterns.

The guru's these days can't really 'comprehend' that PU isn't a skill that you can achieve in a few days training. It's a constant path of learning & evaluation and then, and only then, you can achieve that what you so desired in the beginning...

having success with women.

≠ LD

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I agree.

Personally, for anyone who gets on this forum looking for a "quick fix" to all their problems, I can GUARANTEE that you won't find one. They don't exist. That's the "magic pill" in a nutshell; there isn't one, that's why it's "magic" and books like Magic Bullets do a good job at fooling people into believing that there are quick solutions, when there honestly and truly are not! Any quick fixes that a person uses will ultimately lead to the situation they've created falling apart at some point near or far. This is the faulty nature of what is called "The Personality Ethic".

True lasting results (of any nature, regardless of what it is you are seeking to establish in your life) come from working on "The Character Ethic". This is a different way of improving the issues that a person faces; to people who crave quick fixes, it seems silly and a waste of time, as it requires building a solid foundation and ruthless self-honesty; it doesn't provide instant results, in fact it often appears to people as though they are getting worse results initially, so people without "the end in mind" give up and deprive themselves of REAL improvement. One must discover what they are doing that doesn't work first, why they have been doing it, understand that making excuses won't accomplish anything (no matter the validity of why the faulty behaviors and mindsets occurred in the first place) and accept responsibility for their own failures or success in the past and the future. Once the unproductive traits are identified, then they must be replaced with useful and beneficial beliefs, behaviors, etc. This takes time. This is an internal struggle more than an external one, yet the results increasingly become apparent and spread to every corner of a person's life.
This is the heart and soul of "Natural Game", if you want to call it that. Why is it "natural"? Because it comes from within. Because it isn't fake. Because it isn't trying to make up for the flaws that a person knows are being hidden by the superficial rehearsed lines and expressions, the silly and transparent gimmicky games, tricks and manipulative attempts at misdirecting a human being's natural ability to tell when someone isn't happy, fulfilled, doing what they want, behaving as they are, etc. You can't fake being whole and balanced. You can't trick yourself into believing that everything is ok if you are truly unhappy and you've got issues that you are avoiding dealing with. People can see this. Sometimes you might even get really good at convincing yourself you believe that you're ok, yet it will start coming out in subtle ways that other people notice; that's just the way human being are at a fundamental level.


If you spend more than 4 hours a week "sarging", or on this forum, DO THIS EXCERCISE!!!!"

Ask yourself these questions:

1) Why am I on this forum (in the community)?

2) What caused me to end up here?

3) Who do I want to be as a person?

4) Why do I want to be that person?

5) Is it worth seeming like that person to others if I don't feel like and see myself as that person myself?

6) What am I willing to DO and how much am I willing to GIVE to become that person?

7) If I can pretend to be that person and it only takes 3-6 months, yet I continue to feel bad about myself and my life, is it worth it?

Am I "trying" to improve, or am I doing what it takes to improve?

9) If I have to spend every day for the rest of my life to continue being the person I want to be, yet I start feeling the results in 1-3 months and I start seeing the physical results I desire no later than a year from today, is THAT worth it?

10) Have I taken enough time to think about these questions and answer them honestly and deeply? (If not, do it again!)


Stop reading pick-up material and start reading self-development/success development material. If you master the principles those things teach, then you will have already mastered the art of seducing a girl without needing to read another book on the subject. The people who write those books are real men, they all are extremely successful at getting the girls they want and they don't waste hundreds of hours on forums like this or in clubs and other venues intent on getting rejected enough times that it will harden them into not caring about failure; they think about getting what they want and so they get it. You can too.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

Just to put an emphasis on a certain point...
The first post referred to "modern day material" but your reply referred to "natural game," which one are you talking about? There is a lot of modern day material that I wouldn't consider "natural game."

There lies another problem; why do you consider to be "natural game?" Your definition and my definition could very well not match. That is my major issue when someone makes a post with sweeping generalizations about "game."

"Game" is way to unspecific. Lets take Mystery Method and 60yearsofchallenge for example. Both methods revolve around getting laid but both methods are extremely different from each other. Juggler method is different from both of those, so on and so forth.

Be more specific with your post and questions.
This leads me to wonder what "modern day material" you have seen. I've seen more than one product that I would consider both "natural game" and "modern day material" and those products teach it in a pretty effective way.
As can I, and many others, using "natural game."

I'll give you an example.

If someone called me up on a Saturday Morning and asked me to teach them how to get laid here is what I would do:

- Take them out shopping and get them some nice clothes
- Get them a sexy haircut
- Sign them up to a gym (this would be for the long term)

I would sit them down and have a talk with them. I would teach them about the realities of "pick up" and how its a numbers game but that the numbers can be vastly improved.

I would stress how important it is to be authentic. I would probe them for use information on their strengths and weaknesses and teach them how to play to their strengths.

I would give them a quick run down on their conversational abilities but seeing as how what you say doesn't matter that much I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time on this approach.

I would teach them how to open and give them a run down on how to sexually escalate and how to move things forwards.

I would teach them the signs women exhibit when their interested. Such as eye contact, giving proximity, ect.. Along these lines I would teach him how to spot horny women.

Then I would teach him about closing the deal.

I wouldn't bother with routines or any of the fluff a lot of the "older material" teaches such as "approach from a 45 degree angle" ect...

Then I would send him infield and follow up with a few infield calibration sessions.

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Im glad that a few of you have similar ideas and i totally agree with
I do realise my title was vague but it was aimed at "natural game" as this is what is being produced the most recently.
Man this is what Im on about ! defenitions not matching its hard to get your point across in material. Everything is left to your own interpertation ! Which may not be the right way to percieve the given information.Such is the case with a lot of natural game telling you how you should " feel" and trying to explain phenomenoms which the person can only uderstand if they have experienced this before, its impractical.

And Warped eveyrthing you've just said about how you would teach someone in a weekend to game girls I would do myself but the thing is this material "wont register" in a weekend to the majorty of the public. It needs repetition, steps and experience (A lot of wide spread experience) for the person to actually take it into account. Unless you yourself teach this same guy for weeks on end.

The majoroty of the public dont have access to someone with the "know how" and need a set of guidelines on how to gain these atributes with correct experience instead of explaining what they are and why your current atributes are wrong, which is what quite a lot of natural game material is on about.

I keep saying this, I agree with the experience bit, but we gain experience to learn what we are good at. As for the advice given by any PUA I take it with a grain of salt. The advice is too general and only fits one mind set. It is not very specific to an individual's needs which is why it fails most of the time.