Why learning game if you're under 21 is a bad idea!!!

I know I am seriously going to stir up some shit for writing this but I'm known not to always be "politically correct" but what I have to say makes sense. Those of you under 21 will probably fight me on this and say you don't know what you are talking about. Those of you over 24 or 25 will probably understand where I am coming from better that most.

There are a lot of reasons why if you are under 21 you shouldn't be using PUA. I'm going to tackle some of the main ones and work my way from there generally pissing people off.

First off there is something called the "Quarter Life Crisis" that you can look up on urban dictionary if you want but basically it's a phenonmenon that hits you typically in your mid 20s.
I thought that was a pretty good summary for the most part. When you are around your mind 20s or so things start coming into focus for you about who you really are, your identity, your place in the world, and so on. So my point is if you are still developing your identity until you are 25 years old or so... you don't need to be using game. You should try to let certain skill sets develop naturally without PUA tactics and things in your brain.

I truly feel that a lot of us given the opportunity will develop certain skill sets and a comfort with the opposite sex naturally. However, you have to expose yourself to the opportunity to develop those skills naturally. If all you do from the time you are 13 to 21 is sit at home playing XBOX and not spending time around women or in social interactions then that won't happen for you.

Technology to some degree is to blame for the way it goes. In the past you had to go to social interactions like dances at school, parties in the neighborhood, and stuff of that nature or you were considered weird. Now it's pretty common to sit and home all the time shut up with your computer or game. I'm guilty of it to and not blaming technology entirely but it has made it more normal to not socially interact with others.

Reason #2 is that you in many cases are working to get your life on the right track whether you are in school, getting started in your career, getting a place to live, etc. These are definitely things that you want to give priority to. PUA will still be around when you come back to it. Your job can very easily suffer if you are going out night after night and so can school and other things. Make sure that this is just enriching your life and not defining it. Don't miss out on a good thing in life cause of this, especially early on in your life when you have so many opportunities.

Reason #3; Logistics, are a bitch for those of you who are younger and don't live on your own, have your own car, or have a better source of income. These things can definitely slow you down. It's better to spend these years working on yourself and your own star player before worrying about girls. Cause at the end of the day you are only accountable to yourself and God!

Reason #4; This is a small reason but still... There aren't a lot of clubs that are open to under 21. There are some and my city has a few but they suck. Say what you want to on this one guys but night game is a great place for the training grounds of pick up! When you take that away you are limiting yourself to Internet, Day Game, and Social Networking. It's nice to have all possible sources open to you!

Reason #5; This is going to tick some people off but I'll say it anyways. I've noticed more people over say 21 years old when they start out with game they tend to stick with it. No offense to a few of you that are the exception but many of you that are younger want a few quick fixes and then you are out of the community and that's fine.

Those that are older typically look for a method that has worked for others and stick to it until they make the results work for them too. This process may take as much as 6 months or more. However because of logistics its easier to practice this new skillset more often than those that can't. I think it's pretty well be proven to get good with this stuff there is no magic fix, you have to PRACTICE!!!

When you are still in high school, need a ride from mom to go out, don't have your own place, or your own schedule, or your own money....it gets complicated to try to really apply pick up to your life! Not to mention you are still figuring out who you are as a person and developing your own identity.

Okay, I've opened the flood gates... Let's hear it!

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

I agree in all honesty, I am 21 and often find myself saying "yeh that'd work if my Mom wasn't up when I get in" etc etc. However I think a lot of the inner game stuff is very important, being successful with just talking to girls or getting dates etc at a young age is helpful for confidence levels once you start taking it more seriously as you get older.

I went from a needy, 'nice' guy that girls were always friends with but never got anywhere to the envy of many of my friends once I started applying a few simple aspects of gaming. Not any routines or techniques just body language and inner game along with the realisation that girls don't want you declaring your love the first they meet you, they want entertainment... you do this with confidence, they quite often return the favour.

Just to clarify... I'm no expert, far from it but this is what I've learnt from my very limited experience.

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'Be who you are and say what you feel; because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind'

Ok JSmooth. You do make some very good points albeit they are from the perspective of an older and more experienced PUA. That is your bias.

I have my own bias, I am 20 and in college. I approached the game in order to get better with women, not to define my life.

But this post is strictly pertaining to America i presume with its 21 year old drinking law.



I will break down, interpret and critique your 5 aspects of why a person should not learn pua until after they turn 21.

1) Creating and learning social interactions without PUA is very good advice. But your first post is more like the "identity" idea. You cannot go into anything in life without knowing who you are and what you want to get out of it.

"To live is to choose. but to choose well, you must know who you are and what you stand for, where you want to go and why you want to get there." - Kofi Annan

Without knowing who you are, you will never get anywhere. That is your message in the first point.

BUT

You can have an identity when you are young, it is just not fully developed yet. PUA can help you figure out who you are and why you are doing this. It can help improve your social skills if you cannot develop them on your own, in the environment that you were born in. PUA forces you out of your comfort zone to make you into a more well rounded person in this aspect.

Your identity is never formed completely EVER, you are always changing. You just know more about yourself, your personality, your "identity" after you have experienced more in life.

Message: dont make PUA your life or your focus, make it just one aspect of your overall well being that you are trying to improve upon to make yourself a better person

2) This point i do agree with. Many young people over emphasize certain aspects of their lives that can be detrimental to their overall well being. Many people are imbalanced and this aspect is just pointing out the obvious, that young people do not have the same time management skills and set priorities that older people do. Its just another aspect of More life experience.

But didnt Adam Lyons get fired from his job due to PUA? he did not have good priorities or good time management even though he was in his mid 20s when he started PUA. He got lucky that he became so good that he could have a job as a guru.

But there are people who have really good time management and set priorities compared to people 10, 20 or even 50 years older than themselves.

Message: have good time management if you want to start PUA

3) Very good point. I am young and have shitty logistics, but does this mean i should not get pussy too?

It is just harder to get laid but it is still very possible. You just need hard work, timing and a little luck.

4) Dude, theres Day Game and social networks to game with when you cant go to bars.

But why would you enter into the game if you have a defeatist attitude. If you think positively, no matter how dire the situation is, you can accomplish anything if you put in your best effort.

But JSMOOTH - You do know thats why they invented FAKE IDs right?

5) This is a fact. Many older people know who they are and what they want to get out of life. Therefore, if they decide what they are doing isnt going to work, they find and tackle the problem faster and more efficiently than i would, maybe

young people do not know what they want yet, they are still developing and trying to find themselves. They join PUA to figure out a problem. This problem may help them become a better person, solve only that one situation or eventually become a MPUA. We do not know, during the time of development, what will stick in brains or not, what we will enjoy or hate. Thats why we want to try all the flavors of jelly beans in the jar to figure out which ones are sweet or which ones taste like shit.


I can break down your whole thesis and point of your post into one single idea:

Maturity is the difference between Under 21 PUAs and over 21 PUAS.

Maturity. Age = experience. JSmooth, being older than myself, you have made the same or similar mistakes that Im going through right now, so why would you tell me not to try something new while i am developing instead of completely ignoring it and not getting pussy.

Maturity is the difference, compared to PUAs under 21, PUAs over 21 just have a better sense of identity, time management and priorities, logistics, social opportunities and dedication.

I actually completely agree with your post except for the premise that I, being under 21, should not practice PUA.

I acknowledge that my situation is more difficult than yours, but I am not complaining.

"Empty pockets never held anyone back. Only empty heads and empty hearts can do that." ~ Norman Vincent Peale

If i was impoverished, would you say i shouldnt go out to sarge because i cannot pay for anything? No, i bet you wouldnt.
If I was homeless, would you say i shouldnt go out to sarge because i cannot bring a girl back? No, i bet you wouldnt.
If i had a physical deformity, would you say i shouldnt go out to sarge because i am ugly? No, i bet you wouldnt.

If i was under 21 years old, would you say i shouldnt go out to sarge because im underage? No, i bet.... oh wait.

JSmooth, I rest my case.

In essence, you want to say that you need to have maturity and have a good attitutde if you want to start PUA.

THAT, I agree with.

J Slay

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Slayin ladies all around the world

You miss 100% of the shots you never take.
- Wayne Gretzky

Middle school and High School kids should just pay attention to the tv show Boy Meets World...

I watched an episode today just for kicks...and was like damn...I should have paid more attention when I was the age those kids were in the show..I think the episode I watched, they were like 12/13....when Cory first started talking to Topanga lol I was surprised to realize, that after reading about PUA stuff for a while...at how much of that information was portrayed in that TV show....the IOI's..DHV's...the kino...Cocky/Funny statements....Its all there...in a kids show...teaching the younger kids how to act and pick up women....


But even in the later episodes nearing the end of high school, there was a lot of information being presented that I feel still applies to people of that age....Pay attention when you're young, so by the time you get older, shits already concrete in your mind... just my 2 cents lol

Fair post J Slay.

There are other older PUAs and Guru's who feel this way. Since hindsight is 20/20 there are some things that we see that some of you may not be able to at this stage in your life. With that being said you make some good points.

I challenge young people to have or find their identity without PUA and to try to learn how to be social and push themselves outside of their comfort zone without pick up tactics. Try to learn how to deal with things through basic trial and error and they may develop certain things naturally.

Going back to point #2. There are a lot of young people that get "obsessed" with pick up and getting laid. As you said there are other priorities in life that need to be addressed. Adam did get fired from his job because of PUA. Now he's ranked #1 PUA out there which I'd venture to say most people aren't going to be able to achieve. Time management and having a "balance" in life is important as I'm sure you'd agree.

#3 Yes you can still get pussy, but generally speaking logistics are much harder but like you said still possible. I have met some guys under 21 that get same "day" lays from meeting girls in malls and such. It can be done but again it can be frustrating for younger PUAs.

I would be happy to tell you to try new things as a younger person but I still say that you shouldn't use PUA tactics in place of skills that you might have otherwise developed naturally given the opportunity to. Obviously...people were meeting women and getting laid long before there was a method developed for it. Why not see what you can develop and do naturally. Then when you're older like in your case being 20 then decide if you want to use PUA to fill in the gaps of your game.

With this being said maybe picking on under 21 year olds is a bad age group. Truthfully, if you are 18-21 I say dealer's choice. I don't agree with it but that's me. Under 18, say still in High School is a huge No.

All that being said J Slay I think you are a credit to the forum and the community. Thanks for your sincere feedback.

"When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me." ~ 1st Corinthians 13:11

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

I can understand how you feel about the 18-21 age group. Many can be immature still and only seeking women to lose their virginity. That is a good goal but in my opinion, PUA should be more about becoming a more well rounded person who can ALSO pick up women with great success. The immature people in the 18-21 category would be the people you would still call kids and wouldnt want learning pua.

In the same way, I completely agree that PUA shouldnt be in high school. It is a time to develop and figure out your personal identity, no matter what stupid shit you did, how unpopular you are or what not. You still have college and the rest of your life to adjust. I agree, Under 18 is a big no.

Trying to learn how to deal with things through basic trial and error is mentally tough. Thats why many turn to PUA in the first place. But through its hardships, the certain things that they may develop naturally can be both good and bad. The good aspects are great because they are a good aspect of that person's character for life while the bad habits can affect his behavior and success for the future.

Its a coin flip to see when an individual is ready to start PUA. But a general estimate and a good guess would be at a minimum age of 18 because they have a good grasp of who they are and where they want to go in life. Of course there are some people who are 16 who are more mature than some 28 year olds but they are exceptions, anomalies and very rare. As a general rule, I agree that 18 is a good base age.

No problem JSmooth. and thanks, i appreciate it.

_________________
Slayin ladies all around the world

You miss 100% of the shots you never take.
- Wayne Gretzky

Jsmooth,

I'm in complete agreement with your posting. I'm 29 years old now, and started PU when I was 26. I regularly see the issues you describe. There are some problems associated with learning PU at a young age. I love how most young people say this is true, but only for the "immature" people (not them of course).

I have a Master's in Education, and I'll use some of the educational psychology we studied in graduate school to inject some points:

1) Constructivism

The dominant learning theory in modern education is something called Constructivism. Basically, the theory says that people learn best when they are able to connect the new learning to something they already know or have experienced.

For example, a class on cinematography would take on a different meaning to someone who has already made movies than it would for someone who hasn't. The experienced student would be able to directly relate the content of the class to his or her own experiences with making movies. The inexperienced student simply can't; he's going to just have to try to remember it all later.

The problem with learning PU early is that most younger guys have little or no dating or sexual experience. A guy could read every major PU manual, even memorize them word for word, but if he can't actively relate the information to past dating experiences, then the information lacks deep meaning and relevance. How is someone supposed to get into "sexual state" and SNL a girl if they've never actually experienced sex? What good is knowing club game if you've never been to a club? It doesn't relate to anything you've done before.

If anything, all this information is going to create more confusion than competency, which leads me to my second point:

2) Beginner's Mind

As we become more experienced in a given area, our brains develop criteria to assess the value of new information that is related to it. For example, as a native English speaker, you have a sense of what words are directly useful in daily speaking ("hello"), what words are typically used in formal language ("in conclusion"), what words are used for slang ("yo bro"), and what words are used virtually never ("epicaricacy"). A student learning English as a 2nd language hasn't developed this criteria of assessment yet. This means that their brain designates all information they're taking in as having equal value. They don't know that "epicaricacy" is mostly useless, or that you shouldn't say "Yo bro" instead of "Hello" while at a formal meeting. It's not uncommon for beginning English learners to learn a lot of words that aren't immediately useful, and also to misuse a lot of language.

PU works the same way. If you have little or no previous dating experience, than all the PU information you're taking in has equal value. In other words, they can't tell the difference between the important and the minor, the legit advice and the misguided info. It's all the same. Suddenly you start seeing examples of guys who don't realize that using false time constraints are not equally as important as having a comfortable personality. You see guys identify other guys as "beta" because they don't use "alpha male body language", despite the fact that the subject is surrounded by girls who like him. You see guys who are trying to practice their night club cold approach game in their high school of 500 people, and getting rejected by the whole school. You see guys who refuse to pass the salt and pepper at a restaurant because they're scared that they will look beta or needy.

The examples go on and on...

In conclusion, the problems with learning PU too young are:

- Information takes on real meaning when you can relate it to previous experiences or knowledge. This is called Constructivism. Younger guys typically have little or no dating or sexual experience. Teaching them PU is like forcing someone live in a house with no bed in it.

- Without prior experience/knowledge, our brains have no criteria to judge the value of incoming info. This causes all the incoming info to be assigned equal value. This is called beginner's mind, and often causes massive confusion, as the student has difficulty filtering between the relevant, the minor, and the irrelevant.

Personally
I am 20. I find everything in PUA incredibly interesting, to the point where i'm passionate about it. PUA is so much more to me than just picking up girls, there are so many fundamentals that are in consanguinity with overall life success, happiness and mental health, also social patterns, etc. Everything about it gets me so excited and interested, it's extremely interesting to me, and i don't think there's anything else that i'd prefer to learn/teach, regardless of the short time i've been here I've been researching gradually more intensely prior to joining this site.


That is my reason for doing PUA, regardless of my age, i wouldn't care if i was 13, or what developmental stage my brain was in. I would encourage any person to do it who felt similar about it as i do, regardless of their age. So in this regards i do not agree with reason #1 if they're having this much fun doing it, as they're not going to be attacking everything so blindly just out of frustration of wanting more girls.

However, if it's an unstable, emotional raging teenager who just wants to "get more chicks" without caring about any other aspect of PUA, then I agree with reason #1 until you learn more about yourself. Which can be achieved through other subjects that help with overall life success while being a foundation of PUA at the same time. Or inner game if you like.


Reason #2; I agree with it in the aspect that you have higher priorities. But this shouldn't be enough to stop you from learning PUA, it shouldn't be enough to stop learning that approaching girls is a good thing, and many other basic tips that aren't obvious to majority of AFCs. Learning some tips from PUA is going to have to help you more often than not. Just because you learn these tips does not mean that they have to take over your life to the point where you're dropping high priorities.


Reason # 3; See you say "working on yourself" and i agree. Working on yourself is inner game, which helps with PUA, and other areas of success and happiness in life. Money, transport, accommodation are going to be problematic in many situations regarding pick up, agreed. But not to the point where you shouldn't learn any pua.


Reason # 4; Yes it rules out night game for the most part, Yes It's is great to have to have this important exciting option open to you. But once again, How is this enough to stop you from learning pua? I agree that it slows down night game progress dramatically, but you can STILL work on PUA, just not that certain aspect.
Also not everyone lives in america, the legal age for full access to everything here is 18 (Australia)


Reason # 5; Agreed, I can see how people start it in hope for quick fixes and solutions to their problems, and have great success instantly. Then lose motivation if things aren't working out instantly, which is from lack of dedication and having too high expectations, which all comes with maturity, which also comes with age. However, If a 15 year old can be pick up a guitar and stick with it, it's because he has a certain amount of dedication to it, and is willing to put in the effort required to get better. Exactly the same with PUA, If you can dedicate yourself to it and have a positive outlook when it seems like it's getting you know where. Then it doesn't matter how old you are. However these traits generally come with maturity as said previously. So yeah, i can see that a person over 21 would be more likely to stick with it, but in no means does it mean it's impossible for someone under 21 to have the disciplined, it's just less frequent.

Conclusions
I agree, and disagree with your post. Every point you raised is true in some shape or form, but you have to take into consideration that it's not ALWAYS going to be the case.


I think the big dilemma here is that the only options that are getting looked at are, a) learning everything in PUA, b) learning nothing at all. There are some aspects of PUA that i think for the majority of people, should be left to an older age too.


Our brains are great at realizing great information that we knew is super obvious, but never applied it. It's that moment you get when you blink and shake your head thinking "WOAH, that just makes so much frigen sense, and it's so obvious" Then there is the time you're mindlessly reading thinking "I have to remember this, that, and that, i don't want to have to remember all this stuff... This is obvious an indicator that it's not for you and you should leave it until you have more insight on PUA, or your brain is at a stage where it wants to learn it.

Good points Mi1ooo98. I think one of the things that started me down this path is I have to ask myself as a former instructor is am I comfortable teaching someone under the age of 18 to get laid using material I'm going to teach him. In the states the age of 18 holds more meaning of course.

I definitely agree with Munroe in that when I first started reading pickup I could easily apply the fundamentals to situations in which I'd screwed up and could see how it would have gone differently in my mind using the methods described. There is something to be said for that. It's possible at a young age you could grasp those concepts, but as Mi1ooo98 said if you aren't grasping it PUA isn't for you.

One trend that I am seeing through our posts thus far is the concept that if they young PUA is out to improve all areas of their life through PUA (health, wealth, and love) and not just focus on getting laid then that definitely shows maturity thus it's more acceptable that they learn the material.

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

The biggest issue I have with this is that "game" is incredibly vague.

As you know Jsmooth, their are so many types of "game" in the community and many of the philosophies and methods are completely different from one another.

lets take Mystery Method and the stuff 60YearsOfChallenge teaches. Both methods are geared towards the same end goal, fucking women. However, both methods are radically different and teaches different things.

Its hard to lump all things taught in the community under the single definition of "game" because there is no single defining meaning to it.

I would agree, however, that some things taught here in the community are unhealthy to not only the under 21 person but all people in general.

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I think another key factor here is being under 21 suggests your maturity isn't developed enough to see these things as natural, once you read them. I think this is due to focusing too much on the end result of "getting laid" and not focusing on why all these techniques are the foundations of getting women.
This is one of the things that makes it so fascinating to me. While it's recommended you stick to one guru, there's so many gurus out there with completely different methods. Yet they still work, it's very exciting thinking you can completely adapt
how you want to come across, because there are endless techniques that are sometimes even contradictory to eachother.

Completely agree, PUA is more than just picking up chicks, people need to see it's not just a quick fix, and that it's an entire adaptation to your lifestyle that you need to in-cooperate. And that takes dedication. You could refer to this as the Aplha male lifestyle, working on the material in this site should improve nearly every area of your life.

Agreed. It really is a lifestyle choice and change that has to be made. It's not a quick fix. And for me it's hard to think of someone under 18 years of age making that big a commitment to their own lifestyle change. Are there under 18 year olds capable of making that decision, SURE! Are there a lot of them...probably not.

Moving along.... There are lots and lots of ways to get the girl. Equally so there are lots of ways to not get the girl. That is what makes this stuff great. You can go out there be needy, creepy, don't kino, say the wrong things, demonstrate lower values, be beta, etc....and if you're having fun still get the girl! Then again you can do all that stuff and still not get her. There are many methods out there.

I don't want to side line too much on this but I recommend people stick to one method until they see the results they want with it. It's very very easy to get into the "Analysis Paralysis" part of pickup where you are studying a lot but not doing a lot. It's easier to stick to one method do it as the guru asks you, get results with it. Then go back and change whatever doesnt' fit as much or look at other styles or other systems.

When you try to read a little of this guy, and a little of that guy, and escalate like that JSmooth guy on YouTube then you don't have a clear picture of the next step because you are trying to do 3 very different systems.

So when are we kicking all the "kids" off the forum?!? Just kidding!

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

Great post, JSmooth, I agree completely. And i think once people read down to this post that majority of people will agree with you.

I think a great point you've raised is This is another topic altogether, and it'll be good to see some threads about this, so i won't get too stuck into it here.

LOL

I think you are right Jsmooth. Obviously people are different though.

I see it like this: Young people wanna find out who they are and they can easily define themselves as PUAs. But they dont have the experience to tell BS from the real stuff so they buy into a lot of macho BS going around the PUA community. Plus they very easily get drawn into the PUA bad boy stereotype. It is a seductive community full of pitfalls.

People ask themselves: Am I strong enough to become good at PU.
The should ask themselves: Am I strong enough to handle being good at PU.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

First off, great post! Most of your point are valid to some degree and all were presented in a respectful manner. With that being said I don't necessarily disagree I just have another viewpoint of the situation.

I started "pick up" when I was 16 for the simple fact of wanting to get attention from girls as it had been severely lacking my entire life, a very shallow reason. I'm now 18 and I can't imagine my life not having found the community. Soon after i realized that it wasnt magic the material became much more about developing my identity than actually picking up girls.

Although I can say I havent been laid yet (which is good, you don't really need to be having sex at 16) I have made some good progress over the last two years with girls but I have made leaps and bounds in my identity and personality. Now I know what your thinking, i hav probably made my entire reality based around pickup and thats how i hav developed my identity but it isnt.

I was able to distinguish the good from the bad and as a result im more grateful for the pick up community than nearly anything else. Over the past few years I hav become confident and A LOT more positive. i used to walk around with bad body language, avoid eye contact at all costs, and start talking fast and mumbling when conversing with attractive women. I know you think that making your identity through pick up is a bad thing but for me it wasn't cause i would still be doing the exact same things i was 2 years ago, unhappily going through life.

I use to hav my brain and education to fall back on and that was it, i had one nerdy friend i use to hang out with and we would just hang together, alone. Now i have 5 or so good friends that are social and drag me along to parties and such expanding my horizons, all due to pick up. Pick up has also expanded my mind as to whats possible in my life. I was soo socially conditioned that i thought all i was ever going to be in life was a nerdy engineer with a boring life and wife, now the sky is the limit.

Since i feel like ive got a much more solid inner game now and im many times more mature im going to take the game to the next level....actually getting girls. i started a journal that only has one post in it but i think the journal will help me stay on track and accountable for practicing pickup instead of making bullshit excuses.

Just wanted to say thanks to most of the community for helping make me the man i am today.

Peace, Marky Mark

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