Alright mate, no worries

Although I completely disagree with you Kieran, I really respect your viewpoint in the second part of your second paragraph.

Sorry if I offended, I just think it's funny the way people use statistics sometimes to prove a point, I am just as guilty of it as anyone else

I'm curious though, what part do you completely disagree with?

That I believe that women can be put off by a mans short stature.

or

That I believe that we shouldn't wholeheartedly commit to a belief that we suspect might be wrong?

I'm just a bit confused by your last comment, I would greatly appreciate it if you could take the time to elaborate.

_________________
"Stay hungry, stay healthy, be a gentleman, believe strongly in yourself and go beyond limitations.” - Arnold Schwarzenegger

not an issue, none taken
I disagree with the belief that looks matter.
In my opinion, which is based on my own achievements coupled with substantial observation, looks don't matter once you open your mouth.

I won't even agree with the idea that it gives you a bonus.
Here is further elaboration, and I want you to think about it if you will, because if you have witnessed it enough times it will totally make sense to you:

You're at a party. There is one girl who you find attractive.
You approach her, and so does a taller, more handsome man than yourself.
Assuming she doesn't feel claustrophobic for the purpose of this analogy - she begins to engage in conversation with you, and the extremely goodlooking guy.
Now, if at that moment during the course of that interaction your "game" (if thats what we'll call it) is even one tiny fraction better than your handsome counterparts - that girl will pick your dick over his.

If you are able to convey more confidence than your competition, if you show more charm and are 5.4% more charismatic than he (just throwin' in a stat to try and prove a point ), and if simultaneously she feels more comfortable around you and your confidence than she does around his...you win. No contest.
In fact - in many cases it's literally as well as logically much easier for us average looking guys to show confidence and build comfort because we aren't (as far as first impressions go) intimidating.
Is comfort important?
It's downright essential if you want to go the whole way with any girl who isn't a nightclubbing whore who already had intentions prior to leaving her house to end up in someone elses bed (although those girls are good too if that's what you feel like at the time).


Anyway enough babbling about how important I personally feel comfort is. Lets take a look at the flip side of the coin.
If you are at a party, and approach a girl while another, more good looking chump is aiming to seduce her as well...and you feel ugly and show insecurity through body language...you not only appear less attractive to her...your handsome man will shine in comparison to you and he will be perceived as more attractive than he should get credit for.
BUT - note: if HIS "game" is lesser than yours, and he appears less confident/awesome/alpha/charismatic whatever you wish to call it, you will shine through even more-so, because of the fact that she SHOULD (by societies measures) be attracted to the better looking fellow - yet she feels she is drawn to your qualities over his.

Hope this makes sense[/b]

I'm only around 5'4. I've actually had women tell me up front that they're not attracted to short guys. This just shows that they're obviously not worth it so it's simple to brush it off and move on.
Sometimes it's just a shit test; if you respond in a positive manner they'll become more attracted to you

Nature/nurture, looks/personality..

These kinds of debates can go back and forth forever, that is why I choose the middle ground here, when talking about seduction I believe there are very few absolutes and there are always exceptions to every rule.

Every woman is an individual in the end and some may place a bigger emphasis on looks rather than personality when choosing a sexual partner and vice-versa.

Personally I have done as you mentioned on many occassions, taken girls off much better looking men simply by using my 'winning personality', so I have had many experiences which personally support the idea that looks don't matter. However.

I have also had many experiences which indicate the opposite and this isn't my vanity talking because occassionally in the past I have been passed up for better looking dudes.

These counter-indicative experiences were primarily based on conversations I have had with women, which always seem to indicate that looks are an important factor, they are not everything but they do enter the equation during the selection process. It is simply part of the selection formula.

One conclusion that I derived from heavy contemplation and practical application of this contentious subject was that men only need to be 'good looking enough' to seduce beautiful women reguarly. (I am talking about the general populice here, I'm not talking about Rockstars and Saudi Princes)

And quite often 'good looking enough' in the eyes of most women simply comes down to not being utterly repulsive, so on that logic most sexually active men should be able to attract super models given that they are highly developed in the other areas which constitute 'game' (as you put it)

I would say the main physical components, would be, Style, Body language, Physical prowess

And the main metaphysical being...Confidence, Intelligence, Social Prowess

There are many traits and many more labels of those same traits, which characterise a conventionally attractive male, however it is my resolute belief that genetics has and always will play a role in determining who is attracted to who.

Maybe this is because I am a devout evolutionist and my beginnings in game started with Richard Dawkins rather than Neil Straus or Myster but I have always found this to be a comparitively rock solid foundation on which to build effective game.

That is just my opinion though, there is no right and wrong here because we are basing this discussion upon individual perception so there will always be exceptions to every rule. Thus why I choose to be flexible with my belief structure.

_________________
"Stay hungry, stay healthy, be a gentleman, believe strongly in yourself and go beyond limitations.” - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Women do listen to society which is why its harder for short guys to get girls and easier for tall guys. Saying that there ARE women that in no way will NOT date a guy shorter than them. And its not some small minority, as some don't want a guy shorter than them. Has nothing to do with what society tells them it's just something they don't want. Since we are talking about height I know girls that say a guy can be too tall for them and I have run into this actually a couple of times actually. I am not hugely tall as I am only 6'6" but I have had girls that where like 5'5" tell me I am too tall for them.
Hence why I said 10%.
I agree you need comfort for a one night stand, but you need that anyway for a one nighter. Doesn't matter how tall you are.

Jurupa and Kieran, this has been a fantastic and respectful discussion on beliefs and perceptions. It's good to know not everyone on this forum explodes upon a conflict on ideas

Good stuff. I don't have anything more to add - so that's it for me.
Hopefully now that the OP has been exposed to different (all positive in their own way) standpoints, he can overcome his issue.

Basically what all three of us have essentially agreed with is the fact that whether looks matter or not - there is without a doubt huge potential within him to become excellent at picking up women.

Good luck.