This is a subject that many people misunderstand, abuse or just do not care about.

I am taking a couple of minutes to explain my view on frame wars because I see a lot of people here flexing their PUA muscles and think that this is an actualy war. I can see how this concept can be confusing but hopefully this post will help some of the people overdoing it.

So what is frame wars? Basically a PUA term meaning that whenever two people meet, they are gonna establish a social structure between themselves, who is invited into the others world. Who will subject to the others view of the world? In short, who is dominant and who is submissive. Who leads the conversation?

This is normally nor a problem, it is obvious in most scenarios with people you have daily contact with. Some frames you have to accept: Teachers, bosses etc. Others accept yours: Your employees, students, pets etc. And others are people you just dont care about, like people you meet on the bus.

But when you are in a sarging situation, it can matter. Of course it matters most to the people who are about to lose their frame, or people with weak inner game. Basically, people who feel the need to protect themselves. Sadly, they often do so by attacking, and attacking, and attacking. Until they wear down the other persons frame, and interest.

There are a few tools PUAs use to beat at other peoples frames: Negs, cocky funny, false disqualifiers, and above all, that air of arrogance that tells everybody that, I am not taking anybodys shit and I will teach anyone who even thinks about questioning my authority a lesson. Obviously this mindset is just bad.

That last sentence can be read again!

Get it? Good.

That is a terrible mindset to have. Sadly, I see so many PUAs with this exact mindset. They go around telling themselves that they are the shit. That they can believe that they are awesome and become awesome. The outcome of this mindset is an overly dominant personality, which is in fact not dominant at all. It shows weakness and insecurity.

It is the kind of mindset of people who think that they are right just because it is them and they are always right. Instead of being right because you have experience. Or even better, to accept the fact that you may not be right at all.

But, people with this mindset love to show others how right they are, how awesome they are. That kind of behaviour radiates an air of, I am not strong enough to accept criticism or questioning. So yes, it may seem like strong inner game to some but it is in fact weak.


So the solution to a girl with a strong frame to these PUAs is to smash their own frame down on top of hers. To bury her frame in a barrage of bullshit. To win every single discussion or disagreement by walking all over her and not listen to anyones opinion but their own.

This is overdoing your frame wars.

The other extreme is when you let a girl walk all over you and you agree with everything she says just because you wanna get on her good side. That sucks even worse.


And, no. The answer does not lie somewhere in the middle.


This is how I win every single framewar I enter.

My frame accepts the existance of other peoples frames.

There you have it, a simple solution which is difficult to achieve.

Whenever I meet a person, I expect the other person to have a frame. I expect that this person is better than me in some way or at something and that is not only ok, that is optimal. If the other person is weaker than me in every respect, why would I ever wanna spend time with that person. Sex? Yes, but then I would rather go out or move on until I find another girl who is equally sexy but is mentally at my own level. I can stand not so attractive girls for a night but I cannot stand even 10 seconds with girls who annoy me mentally.
That doesnt mean that I never give anyone a chance, it only means that I give them a chance to impress me and if they cant do that in other ways than looks... Next.

Now I dont mean to sound like oh yes, it is so easy, you can get whoever you want, it is just a sarge away... But that is not the point. The point is: You dont have that girl either. The one you are just sarging, you dont have her yet. You will find out if she is strong enough within the first 10 minutes of conversation. So you have an equally good chance with the other girls in the club.

Having spent the last half year in search for inner strength and harmony, I have found that my frame is strong, very strong. Not because it walks all over other peoples frames or that it destroys them. On the contrary, my frame is strong because I know myself. I know my weaknesses and my strengths. And I accept that I have them. I do not accept that I am gonna have them forever though. So when I meet a girl with a frame that is strong in a different way than mine, my frame merges with and/or absorbs hers. I take the opportunity to learn from her. Not trying to be arrogant or anything here but my frame will not be threatened by hers because I know that the overall inner strength of me is way stronger than the inner strength of most people I meet. Not bragging, just telling you that I have worked hard on it. But most of my strength comes from the fact that I do not see it as a failure if I am wrong. If I have a weakness and someone points out I feel stronger, because I just levelled up by learning from her.

So you see, it is not a war. Fight and you will eventually lose. Both the girl and respect for yourself. Build up your inner game so that you will not feel threatened by someone who is stronger than you, you will get the ability to take a mental beating and like it. Simply because even though it damaged some part of yourself to realize that you suck, it is only a small part of what you build your self confidence on, you have enough to spare. Build up your pillars of confidence, not only on your strongest characteristic but on all of them, if one crumbles, you have the rest to support your ego.



During my half year vacation from the PU world, I have had many interesting discussions with people from the BDSM subculture (real dominant men and women, and also submissive ones). People who jusr radiate strength and confidence so much that it affects others sexually. And they all agree on one thing. Real strength is to admit weakness.


Hope this post will help some of you not to fall into the same arrogancefilled hole I fell in to...

Love

Ezo

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

Great post! This addresses all the things I've really been thinking about myself for the last few months. I believe a truly confident person is someone completely ok with a girl not being interested in them. It doesn't fuck their frame or anything, they can just accept that they approached a girl, she wasn't interested, big deal, move onto the next one. That doesn't mean you don't put your best foot forward and try to change her mind, but if you can't you just accept it and move on.

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Even the most naturally gifted can learn to become better.

Good post, I agree more or less with everything.

To my opinion, a good frame consists of openess and respect: openess, like you said, being open and giving everyone a chance to show or prove themselfs; and respect, like respect for everyone and his or her opinion. Doesn't mean that you should agree with it, but that you don't attack it and even understand it.

And last but not least, not being ashamed of your weakness:
I cannot stress this more. Some people are affraid to show weakness. Those people are the real weak ones. Weakness is natural, nothing to be ashamed of, and actualy a help to do better. Weakness is good as long as you deal well with it.
Best quote of the day. Couldn't agree more.

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You WANT to make a change.
You CAN make a change.
You WILL make a change.

Ambitious to be succesfull => Shyler

I fully support this thread. Officially!!

Ezo.

There is a question i have been meaning to ask for quite a long time on here, that i think your thread in some way answers a very well.

That is.

Everybody i meet lately. HIGHJACKS THE MORALE HIGH GROUND.
This makes conversation almost impossible with other guys.

I find any topic seems to be without real emotion.
The problem is in order to have a conversation and disagree just to make CONVERSATION you have to put up with coming off like an uncaring asshole due to My point and your thread.
Perhaps not the best way of explaining my point but i hope you get the jist of it.

I wondered if you have been, or experianced what im on about.

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Its getting Hot out there.

Its all to easy.

I want to be a tree!

Not sure if I got that right but I think it goes something like:

People are so centered on themselves that whenever you talk to them, you can either be a complete tool and agree and boost their too-big-already ego or disagree and be a jerk.

I think it is a trend in society, people are told from birth to believe in themselves so they forget that others can think too.

And yes, I agree, not many subjects gets me fired up and enthusiastic, most things people talk about is just coldtalk to not make a fool out of yourself. But that is why an interesting topic where you can have opinions works so well, people love to discuss and talk about things where you cannot really be 100% right or wrong, just have different opinions.

I mean Elvis died in 1977, you can be right or wrong about it, case closed. And without knowledge, you cannot participate.

But if it is right or wrong to sleep with your friends friend is not something you can be too stupid to participate in.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

Such a great post. It put a different twist on what I try to do, so I'm glad to see my "goal frame" more "in the round" if that makes any sense.

I think a huge piece is realizing that you are not your personality or life experience. You are you, an unthinking reality that determines your thoughts and actions. No matter what anyone says, they can't attack that, because there's nothing to attack. You are what you are, and its infinite manifestations in different situations can never be described as simply as "annoying," or even in any words at all. Therefore you never need to be defensive, because you don't have any ego or "I'm a suave, charming guy" image to protect.

Any moment I let myself be who I am, without any self esteem, I feel so untouchable.

Well, you are still a product of experience and stuff but now that I have given you another piece of experience ( ) you have a choice. Or, you always had a choice. However, the things you can choose from are limited if your experience is limited so what I try to do is to get myself compatible with whatever situation I can come up with.

But it is as you say. You have the right to be whoever you can imagine being, and that is your choice. Nobody can do it for you. So people critiquing you for who you are... they are doing that from their own limited perspective, they might not have understood who you really are, and hopefully, you have...

_________________
I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

You are a product of your experience, but that experience is not you. Someone saying "I hate snowboarders" doesn't need to affect you, even if you've snowboarded every day for years. Even so, much of your understanding of life and your stories will come from snowboarding.

And on the second paragraph, yeah, but there's no need to imagine anything. You are who you are, and if you allow what someone says to touch that or attack it in any way, you're responsible for the unhappiness within yourself. You can definitely choose not to be unhappy or defensive.

But however you say it, it really just boils down to comfortably being yourself, despite the cliche.

Well, no it doesnt. Thats the thing. There are a lot of people out there who suck, most of us suck. To just say, "hey just be comfortable being yourself", only tells you that you need no work at all, everybody should love you and if they dont they are stupid. It completely removes any responsability from yourself, not good.

You should still try to improve, I have never been against that.

What I am trying to say is that you need to keep whats important important. Do not lose track of who you are and the good parts of your personality. I say this because so many people get sucked into the PUA sterotype and pretend to be someone terrible just because they think that it works for everybody. The scary part is, when you play this role long enough, you may become that person.

And the part about not letting anyone touch who you are... Sad. Of course you need to listen to other people. Dont let them rule your life but be strong enough to take criticism, to be humble enough to see yourself critically. Are they right? Maybe they are. If you feel the need to protect yourself from others, you are not very strong. (Not having a go at you here, speaking in general.)

So build up your inner strength and be that guy whose ego doesnt crash and burn just because someone is mean to you. Plus, dont be that guy who never gets anyone to change who he is just because he doesnt let anyone inside his defenses. Be the guy who can take a mental beating from anyone and still stand, the one who takes the damage and sees it as learning. Frankly, if you are strong enough, people can attack and attack and you never need to defend because your ego can take it.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

I agree with all of that, except for the last couple sentences.

All of this for me is self improvement. Self improvement is the #1 motivation in my life. I realize that I can't see myself objectively, so other people's feedback is huge for realizing flaws. I completely agree there.

In the last part, you said to be alright with taking a "mental beating" or taking the "damage." and I really disagree there. There's no need to take any sort of beating. Why think of what someone says as an attack on you at all? They aren't attacking you, they're "attacking" because something in you threatens their own insecure ego. Any mental beating is caused by your own mind, interpreting what someone else says as an attack on yourself. Accept what they say, evaluate the truth in it, and learn from that, but there's no need to cause yourself pain that way.

That's a very small distinction though, and I really agree with the post as a whole.

Agreed, that is what I mean. But many people see criticism as an attack.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

Excellent post.

How can I balance self-esteem with ego loss?

Drop the ego-act. Ego is basically just an overgrown affirmation you tell yourself because you are afraid to lose it. Because deep down inside, you dont believe it yourself.

Self esteem is another thing. People confuse it with self confidence but it is not the same.

Try ignoring all of the ego issues you have and look at yourself, truly look. Get one single moment of realism into your life and see yourself with all flaws, all virtues and everything that you are afraid of. And say to yourself, I am still a good person. Then mix this in with a piece of realism and fuse those two with your self esteem.

You cannot get a good balance if you keep lying to yourself. Realism is the key.

_________________
I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

Bump!

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http://www.dancefloorseduction.com

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Good Post. Needs to get back on top