This shit is so interesting....

Date: March 27th, 2002 06:45:00 AM (EDT)
Group: alt.seduction.fast.tactics-techniques

http://www.fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/se ... hod=browse

Those archives are gold.

Did you see what happened with the Gunwitch guy? Creepy dude!

Allen Reyes, "Gunwitch Method" Pick-Up Artist, Pleads Guilty to Gun Charge After Woman Is Shot in the Face

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailywee ... hod_pi.php

Great, we're taking advice from a lunatic. What's next? Swinggcat push/pulling a girl over a cliff?

Mystery isn't one of the most mentally stable guys either.

This is only really a problem if your going to start modelling your world view on Gunwitch.

His strategy and approach to pick up works, his emotional stability... not so much.

Gunwitch reads like a step by step manual on how to get charged with rape.

Why do you say that?

so studying gunwitch method is a sure way to find yourself with a gun to some girls head?

It's about being indirect at first, then isolating her and becoming aggressive. If she starts to resist you gotta "make the ho say no". It's sneaky and misogynistic and comes from the mind of a creepy looking dude who shot a girl in the face.

That's why.

Really, last time I read it, it's about creating a sexual vibe, but NOT verbalising this because this will lead to social pressures getting involved.

It'd be misogynistic were it something to do with killing women because they are "immoral" or "annoying", buit its not. No one has ever been able to show how Gunwitches method for picking up women is in anyway condoning the kind of behaviour he then exibited later.

Have you read any of his stuff or are you only going off of what "The Game" says. Honestly "The Game" says a lot of shit about other methods which aren't true, or at the very least are taken way out of context.

I'm not defending gunwitch's actions, but his methods had value from what I remember of them. They had nothing to do with rape or forcing any woman to do anything. His method was about masculinity and confidence.

I believe the "make the ho say no" thing was a quote from very early on in his experience with pua. Also I don't believe it referred to molesting or raping a women, but rather referred to escalating sexually, and it meant that women were more comfortable getting sexual than most men realized and that most men will stop escalating before they reach a point in which women want them to stop.

It's sad when a PUA brings shame to pickup, but Gunwitch was a troubled man with personal problems, which were most likely unrelated to pua.

This I think is the crux of the matter.

These ideas can be seperated from who this guy was. It's an old debate in alot of fields over whether one persons art/creation can be enjoyed when knowing a certain secret or trait about the artist or creator.

What Gunwitch wrote about and did has been un-deniably useful, who Gunwitch was, was a nasty person, but these things can and should be seperated.

Gunwitch when "the truth" came out was a classic case of Pick up communty syndrome, a mental case leading on people who unfortunatly don't know better when picking a role-model. But, I don't think we can deny Gunwitch any credit for what he wrote regardless of how he "framed" it.

He basically tells you to be forceful until she tells you no, but not too forceful because that's rape. If you're skating that close to the edge it's easy to cross a line. A guy can get carried away or maybe the chick is a little nuts, and you're in deep trouble. You might get laid but it's hard to imagine a woman coming out of this experience feeling positive.

I don't think you can separate a man's mental state from his philosophy on women, especially when he shoots one in the face.

Excerpt...


"A full isolation (your house, her house, your back seat, a broom closet, a sex room at a party ect) is for after you see her go into a sexual state. What you say isn't important, "lets save some money and go back to MY place and have some drinks” (at a bar), "I’m having a barbecue up at my place later you wanna come up and listen to some music for a while" (when in public), or "you should come over to my place and check out my weight equipment" (at the gym). Once they are in sexual state they are ITCHING for ANY opportunity, so you don't need some smooth line. "Lets go in here" to a sales clerk as I opened the door to a storage room, worked once.

Of course if a girl NEVER goes into sexual state for a long period of time, you just try to isolate her anyway and "make the ho say no". NEVER eject. Always either get either a lay, or a rejection. Only TWO options. Don't bail out by getting a number or something. The ONLY time you get a number is if she is totally strapped for time and making excuses of that nature, and in that case call her once and don't think about her again. Basically phone numbers are for when you really don’t even care if you sex her or not, or you don’t care to expend the energy involved in the particular situation or dynamic.

Section 14:

The close. Once isolated, the words "why don't you come sit with me"? or "why don't you come lay down here?" are CHAMPION. Of course in a broom closet you just press up against the wall and start kissing. At home after you get her laying with you or sitting on your lap ect, you start to touch her even more at this point, stroking her hair saying it smells nice (HER HAIR YOU PERVS), you then get a good eye contact going and go in for a kiss, give her a soft light kiss with no tongue at first, keep this going until things progress to French kissing, give a good 30 minutes of foreplay to get her REALLY turned on so that she doesn't give last minute resistance. Clothes don’t come off for 15-20 minutes, panties don't come off for 25-30 minutes. Then you are on your own, I’m not godamn Dr. Ruth.

14.1 the last minute problem with sex. This happens sometimes, she'll say "I don't know you enough" ect. When this happens don't get mad or upset ect. Just say, "I understand" or "ok, this is nice though huh?" then go back to necking and making out. Eventually go back in for the sex, if happens again say "I understand" and go back in for more kissing and making out, and repeat until it goes through. Hell even if she never gets ready, what have you got better to do than make out with some hot little number? You've got no real "make the ho say no" style of getting a close or getting a rejection to work with at this point, as she already has said no but MAY change her mind. DO NOT struggle or tug or bear weight on her at this stage, as that is considered rape. Use persistence not force, and you'll be ok."

He never said forceful, he says sexual. You are adding the forceful nature to his teaching because you cannot imagine that a woman might like a guy to escalate sexually. He explicitly says to never force yourself upon a woman, and differentiate between what he is suggesting and rape. Re-read what he wrote, and what you quoted him on. He is basically saying, take a chance and make your move, she will either enjoy it or reject you. Live in the moment.

He never says to over power a woman or move directly to sex. Hell he talks about french kissing and 30 minutes of foreplay; then adds to back off if the girl is not ready for sex and go back to kissing. What part of this is rape?
He is basically say that women aren't an on and off switch when it comes to sex, they are a dimmer and need to be revved up slowly. Just because she isn't ready for sex right away, doesn't mean she won't be ready for sex after 30-45 of foreplay. So he's saying, don't just give up right away if she's not ready. Try some more foreplay, revve her up a little, and see if she's more into it later. But he definitely warns not to be forceful or do anything that she's uncomfortable with.

Other than using the catchphrase "make the ho say no", where does he imply to act in any violent or forceful way? Where does he say to act rude or controlling? Where does he say to overpower a woman or molest her? Where is the negative feelings you referred to?
I would agree with you if we knew more about this terrible incident. The fact that he shot a woman, might have nothing to do with his philosophy on women. More than likely the crime was specific to the victim, not an expression of general hatred toward women. And anger management issues may be completely unrelated to his sexual behaviors. His crime was not sexual in nature, so it's hard to judge his philosophy on women based solely on this crime.

DO NOT struggle or tug or bear weight on her at this stage, as that is considered rape.

I would argue that if your method is that close to being "considered rape" you're being irresponsible. Seducing a woman never has to go down this path.

I found some audio of Gunwitch talking about he would have no problem raping women if there were no laws against it.

http://rutube.ru/tracks/3566911.html?v= ... 980003c625

There was a YouTube video of Gunwitch sitting in his room drunk off his ass talking about his gun and how he accidentally shot a hole in his wall. I wish I could find it but YouTube took it down.

Sorry but this guy strikes me as a total sociopath, he gives the community a bad name.