i think pua is much more than that.

pua is a science.

hypothesized, field-tested, refined, and the cycle repeats.

most "normal" guys (that you are referring to) would never have a clue how to deal with things like last minute resistance or anti-slut defense.

this stuff is the real deal.

does pua tend to draw from a crowd of people who have suffered a little dissatisfaction with their social lives? absolutely!

does pua turn out people who know how to handle women with such ease that they melt in your hand? absolutely!

this stuff is a science. and it obviously has an allure, or haters like the original poster wouldn't feel the need to come here and insult people (clearly out of fear, that they guys on this board are getting more pussy than he is)

_________________
what dr. house brings to medicine, i bring to everyday life (an extreme dose of cynicism), don't listen to the curmudgeon!

I agree there is some science in there. But I don't need an astrophysicist to tell me that the sun is rising in the East in every morning and I don't need astonomical charts and calculations and formulas to tell me why.

Some people do.

Is science a bad thing? Absolutely not. Does knowing some social sciences help some people score chicks? Yeah, sure it probably does.

I don't see where the OP was hating. I think to him he just saw that a lot of PUA is just good ol' fashioned no-brainer, common sense and said that if everyone else saw it as common sense and conventional wisdom, the gurus selling the books and DVDs would go out of business.

He is right, if everyone just saw it as natural and did what their parents and teachers and family members told them and did what comes natural to them, there would be no goofballs in big floppy hats calling themselves esoteric names like Mystery and Style etc etc.

That isn't hating, that is just a fact.

Another fact is for a lot of people this does NOT come natural and they did NOT have parents or other mentors teaching them basic social skills or teaching them the basic characteristics and traits that the opposite sex finds attractive and desirable.

I'm 47 years old. I discovered the PUA community about a year ago and I have learned a lot of new techniques and tricks of the trade and I believed it has helped me a lot. HOWEVER, I had girlfriends and FWBs and FBs etc since I was 17. I was not living a life of celebacy and abstinence and neither were many of friends.

Some how, some way we managed to get women into our beds by trying to look good and talking to women. We made EVERY mistake that the gurus tell AFCs not to make. We were total beta-boy AFCs and we STILL got chicks into our beds on a pretty regular basis and we did that by talking to them, asking them out on dates, buying them drinks, telling them how special and unique they were and running errands for them.

We did it all wrong and they still sucked our dicks and spread their legs of us. They did it because that's what chicks do with guys that aren't dirty, filthy, unkempt and that talk to them.

nope. i disagree.

natural talent is like the kid who is great at backyard basketball.

pua is like the nba. it's the big leagues, taken to a whole new level.

put that kid up against an nba player, who practices, studies, learns, strives, works out daily, gets taught by the best-of-the-best.

suddenly, that natural doesn't stand a chance.

competence trumps confidence anyday.

you are right in that many are here because they are social rejects.

many does not equal all.

that's your opinion, and i can see where you are coming from. but i'm sure there are people who were really good at picking up girls and just decided to get into pua to get even better.

i think the implication that pua is for socially-stunted individuals who can't normally function with the opposite sex...is a stretch to say the least.

i agree with you that what you are saying happens (a lot),

but it's not the standard. that's an overgeneralization.

overgeneralizations:

1. all women love teddy bears
2. all men love sports
3. all gays wear pink
4. all pua's are socially-stunted rejects who can't do what comes to EVERYONE ELSE naturally

and, the original poster's post was, at the very least, slightly antagonistic (unnecessarily)

_________________
what dr. house brings to medicine, i bring to everyday life (an extreme dose of cynicism), don't listen to the curmudgeon!

I also need to add that I think your analogy is a pretty good one.

Again, lets talk about concepts vs nuts and bolts.

The concepts of aerodynamics are fairly straight forward. If a design of an aircraft can generate enough upward force under it's wings that the upward force generated is greater than the downward pull of gravity it will fly. simple concept (ie having confidence in yourself and talking to women will facilitate male/female relations)

However applying the nuts and bolts of flying and controling an airplane requires a considerable skillset.

The same with women (or dealing with any people for that matter) The concept is fairly simple and straight foward, but applying all the nuts and bolts to make it actually happen is more complex.

I agree with you that not all PUAs are social misfits. Yes some are good naturals that want to get better. Some are good naturals that want to get REAL good too.

To use your NBA analogy, IMHO the vast majority NBA players are naturals who have natural athletic ability and were raised by athletic families and support circles and they then developed a personal passion for basketball and learned all they could, recieved expert coaching and instruction and worked their fingers to the bone and then worked some more. NBA players are the very tip of the iceberg of people that play basketball.

Now matter how hard I work at basketball and now matter how many hours of practice and training and no matter how much expert coaching and instruction I recieve and no matter how much I dedicate myself to it, I will probably not even have the abilities of a high school varsity player. I just don't have the ability to be competitive.

I will likely never bang countless supermodel HB10s, anywhere, anytime either. I am just not in that league.

I can however pull very attractive, nice, professional, decent, quality, normal women on a fairly consistent and predictable basis.

What's important to keep in mind in all of this is EVERYONE has the ability to improve themselves and most will have the ability to function at a reasonable level or at least at a level for some personal satisfaction.

I have learned a lot from the PUA community and I believe it has helped me to acheive greater success than I would have had without it. But I was also acheiving success when I was doing everything completely wrong according to many of the rules and guidelines of the gurus and the community.

i've never been a natural at anything.

i wasn't naturally tough.
i had to learn martial arts.

i wasn't naturally athletic.
i had to bust my ass to get good at basketball.

i wasn't naturally confident.
i had to have life kick me around, get me pissed, and stand up for myself.

i wasn't naturally thin.
i had to change my diet and work out every day (for years).

i wasn't naturally good with women. (although i did get pussy).
i had to learn how to be around them.

most things in life are mastered through careful study and hard work, not innate talent.

i don't necessarily take exception with any of the points being expressed in this thread or by the OP. i take exception with the holier-than-thou tone and the backhanded comments about how "pua is for people who can't cut it like normal humans".

when you work for something - you appreciate it more, respect it more, deserve it more.

when something is given to you - you tend to just float along.

just like the old man who busts his ass to start a business through hard work (pua) who then gives the business to his son who fucks it up (natural). one worked day-and-night to learn his trade, the other just "had it" from day one.

_________________
what dr. house brings to medicine, i bring to everyday life (an extreme dose of cynicism), don't listen to the curmudgeon!

here2play ... you are just talking about the surface level - i actually as well disagree with what you are saying.

if you boil it down you are simplifying... because beneath all that inner game and game in general there is a shitload of psychology and biology. If you find all the books about psychology on this whole planet .. that would be literally thousand and thousands of books - every book would could be applied to pickup or game.
every book is taking a factor in the interaction...

is PU as simple as just being confident and talking to woman ... i think not... i've seen naturals and they didn't had a clue about the psychology behind it. most of them had a good youth and they just got cocky and confident while growing up - their whole way of thinking and their mindsets is something they have got through deduction , Other people just projected it on them.

all those natural i have seen had no idea what they were doing , were only operating on surface level and were jerks most of the time because they were TOTALLY delusional... you can be delustional in a healthy sense but these guys were TOTALLY delusional. They think they are the cool guys because they were popular back in school at the age of 8 and 12 - but in reality they were just some flukes which makes them turn out confident - confident friends , parents etc.

i have a deeper understanding because i didn't had the ability to communicate with woman , i didn't had many friends and i didn't had a dad in my life. i had to plough through everything ... learnn everything .. analyze everything and in the end needed to raise myself because i had not contact with my dad anyway. personally i think i have a deeper understanding when it comes to psychology and game , i also have more patience and i do care more about people because im not 100 % delusional like most naturals.

where a natural fails to get the girl i can get the girl .. period simply because i had to analyze and learn everything in depth.
well it really makes me angry when people judge people because they are socially stunted and inable to function with opposite sex ... really ... most of the guys who got into PUA had :

1. terrible experiences with woman who have manipulated them
2. didn't had parents
3. Had paretns but had a very shitty relationship with them while growing up.

afc guys who get into pua do it because society is dysfunctional ... i don't feel the need to explain it , you probably get my point. Interacting with the opposite sex is just in our genes it's who we are ... we are only repressing it by all the shitload of social conditioning.

Look i don't like pua like gambler and guys like that because i don't agree with their methods but i do admire these guys because what they give to other people is a rolemodel , mentor or being a dad to someone who never had that. Everyone can learn pickup .. they just need permission from someone else because they are stunted because of their own fears. Almost all students of MPUA or MPUA naturals treat their teacher like a dad.. if you really pay attention you will notice it during seminars - all students seek approval from their teacher.
lol .. interesting .. this is a perfect example of a limiting belief. do you really think there is difference between a womans brain ? do you really think there is difference between a womans psychology ? all woman respond the same if you switch attraction triggers .. period. i've fucked hb 7 hb 8 hb 9 and hb 10 with they same process over and over.

_________________
AK-47...When you absolutely positively have to kill every fucking orc in the room
questions about herbal medicine here-vp582526.html#582526

Is it a limiting belief or a realistic fact? I have definately pulled people that I thought were way out of my league and some were solid 9s. But to consistantly and predictably pull real 10s on a regular basis isn't in the cards.

Perhaps using the Mystery Method to the letter woud work if I put sincere effort into but I am not going to put the effort into it. I am not gonna dress up like some clown, Sarge 16-20 hours a week and do palm readings and magic tricks like some dancing monkey.

I'm happy with 7s and 8s and I am more comfortable being around them and relating to them as people. They are comfortable around me because I am a 7 or an 8 and they are comfortable because I am a real person around them and not clown doing tricks for them.

PUA has it's place and I was very upfront and honest that it has helped me a lot and I have learned a lot and have been able to apply what I have learned in the real world a lot.

BUT it is not a panacea of human interaction. There are still no silver bullets and or magic lines or failproof routines.

I have learned some great stuff on PUAHATE for that matter. some of their advice and techniques are just as good and just as effective. I love the irony of it!

The first PUA teachings I received were from my mother when I was a young boy when she told me that girls like boys that comb their hair, wear clean clothes, aren't lazy slobs and that treat people decently and that talk to girls. I haven't heard a word from Mystery, Style, Gambler, 60, DeAngelo etc etc etc that contradicts that or says anything different. They just expand on those concepts in a little more detail and give some specific examples of it.

well what is your 10 ? is your 10 just a hot blonde woman ? what is your criteria for a real 10 ? a 10 to me is a very hot girl with a very mature and authentic personality , someone who can relate to me on a emotional level. If you are a better person you will attract better people in general.

if we are talking 10s regarding appearance then you are not approaching the right girls ... if you approach 10 and 9s only you will get results .. period. 7 and 8 s are just less arrogant in general , HB10s just have a huge bitch shield - but it's not who they really are.
actually you don't have to dress like a clown ... where did you come up with that idea ? palm readings can be cool actually....

so what you are saying in order for you to get a HB10 you have to dress like a clown , act like a dancing monkey doing tricks ? actually relating to woman can only be on a emotional level , if you fail to relate to many HB 10s like you do to HB 7 and 8s you have a block somewhere. from what i understand from you is in order to get HB10s you got to go through the grind everyday ? this is not true , if you cannot be a real person around high value people then there is work to be done .... do you feel much pressure around high value woman ?

Passing the bitch shield by using MM method has nothing to do with showing disinterest ... the girl feels like you understand on a emotional level because she doesn't want to be approached by all these dancing monkeys. you are faking it because you are using a technique , she really is feeling authentic emotions.
because you trust your mom and you feel confident about it ... the same happens when a PUA guru takes his students out in the field , they trust him and so they are more confident because they are getting encouraged.

too be honest .. i've picked up HB10s ( HB appearance ) even when i looked like shit and smelled like shit ... i've been out sleeping on the streets and again going out the next day , i have been going out after hitting the gym without showering. most of my life i look like shit , because really i do not care - if i would care i would already have bought a shitload of make-up.

looks do not trigger attraction switches .. looks can switch social conditioning. Looks , money and other superficial values got nothing to do with attraction. if you want to get noticed anyway what is more better ? looking good is wanting to get noticed ... i never liked the whole peacocking idea anyway - it sounds so gay to me. Your whole styling says many things about you if you don't give a fuck then you are confident with who you are anytime anywhere ...period.

_________________
AK-47...When you absolutely positively have to kill every fucking orc in the room
questions about herbal medicine here-vp582526.html#582526

I agree that there's a huge need in our society to train men how to successfully interact with women I just don't think 98% of the PUA guru's are filling this need.

Alpha males (ie. Naturals) are, in essence, sexually confident guys who are comfortable in their own skin. Women are naturally drawn to this kind of energy. Pickup seems to teach the motions but misses the essence of being a Man.

The pickup industry has become flooded with ebooks and programs by keyboard jockeys looking to cash in. They think they're "experts" because they've read all the PUA material out there. There's SO much crap and noise being published right now it's a wonder anyone gets laid. It's truly the blind leading the blind.

IMO the PUA community has fallen way short in several areas such as teaching men how to have that sexual confidence women respond to and teaching men how to deal with a woman once she's interested.

The community does do a good job of teaching guys to clean up and get out there talking to women, which is a big part of the battle. But these newbies get tossed into the fray without the tools to deal with real women in the real world and they get chewed up. That's why you see this steady stream of "one-itis" posts and "how do I get her back" posts and "she flaked on me" posts on the boards. These poor guys had a taste of success, can't figure out how to duplicate it and they become distraught over it. Or they get phone number but have no clue what comes next so they end up texting her for weeks until he screws it up or she just gives up on him.

Anyway, that's my rant. It's nice to discuss things on a board like this where people actually seem to get it.

You are probably right on the money on a number of things and you wrote it all out very eloquently.

The only thing I really feel I need to address is the Mystery clown thing. Have you seen any of the videos of Mystery on Youtube doing the boot camps? The guy dresses like a clown and looks like a baffoon. He advocates doing parlor tricks to entertain women for 7 hours and then try to seduce them.

But even though he dresses outrageously in stupid hats and make up and nail polish and he does stupid magic tricks to entertain chicks for 7 hours, the guy does get laid. And he documents it well so there are field reports and lay reports about it.

Here's the thing though - Broken down into it's basic parts, the "Mystery Method" is actually Here2play's Mom's Method only mom passed that on to me somewhere in the mid 70s before Mystery was even born.

Yeah, Mystery gets cleaned up and well groomed, puts on clean clothes, probably treats people pretty decently, he's not a lazy slacker and he talks to chicks.

The real irony is he could have done all that by grooming, styling and dressing normally and instead of making a algorythmic formula of A1, A2, C3PO and R2D2 he could have just talked to chicks and threw in a little flirting and a little sexual intent.

My guess is that for every chick he fucked, there were 10 others that laughed at his ass for looking like such a freak and talking out his ass with all his false time constraints, negs and disqualifiers. and then those 10 other chicks went home and fucked beta boy AFCs that worn polo shirts and khaki pants and bought them drinks, talked about work and school and asked them out on dates.

But Mystery is smarter than most of us and more on the ball than most of us. We are here talking about basic human interaction stuff for free and he makes money off of it. I'll give that point to Mystery, he earned it.

it's about confidence ... if you have 100 % confidence and you are 100% certain of yourself you will still get laid no matter which method you are using.

i've seen guys including myself doing really AFC shit , but because we were confident it worked. i bought woman drinks and still got laid ....

and here2play you are focussing on mystery too much .. mystery is like 0,5 % of this whole community even tho he did started alot of things. when i saw his book i already knew this was marketing in it's pure form - making all these weird claims on picking up woman foolproof... MM did work for me yes , i was vey succesfull using the method. Just use what works for you ... you don't have to dress like a clown , i don't know if mystery picks up alot of chicks - i have to see for myself by going out with him.
what i do know is that his method even tho it's the worst material out there does work on many aspects.

_________________
AK-47...When you absolutely positively have to kill every fucking orc in the room
questions about herbal medicine here-vp582526.html#582526

lode,

you are right about the whole male role model thing.

my male role models were:

- dad: beat me, my brother, and mom every day for 14 years
- brother: beat my ass when my dad wasn't

my relationship role models were:

- dad: three failed marriages
- mom: two failed (abusive) marriages, and a multitude of abusive boyfriends

yeah, so i didn't stand a chance, because i never saw how a woman was supposed to be treated.

i had to learn this shit.

not because i'm a freak, but because i had a really fucked up life.

_________________
what dr. house brings to medicine, i bring to everyday life (an extreme dose of cynicism), don't listen to the curmudgeon!

Yes exactly! That is why I was focusing on him. He dresses in outrageous customs, wears nail polish/make up, performs silly parlor tricks and has come up with a mechanical connect the dots systems of working chicks into bed.

...And he periodically (perhaps even regularly ) gets laid in spite of all of that!!!

He is living proof that people can get laid looking like a clown, acting like a baffoon and talking out their ass!

I know I sound like I am knocking the guy but I'm not. IMHO he is pure genius and he is should be an inpiration to all of us. If he can pull chicks looking and acting like that ANYONE CAN.

In my humble opinion the reason he pulls chicks is simply because he is groomed, styled (I think his style is rediculous and I am sure most women do to but as long as some will like the style, they will fuck him) confident (even if it is an act) and he talks to women and tries.

That's it, he is clean and styled and he talks to women and puts in the effort to get between their legs. Sure he has some parlor tricks but don't we all?

Mack, you have been highlighting my only problem with the OP in the last couple posts so I just couldn't help chiming in.

It's not just about being confident and/or sexual, its about personal responsibility. The difference to me between an AFC and a PUA isn't whether they have respect for women, or game, even. There are only 2 things that truly distinguish them:

1. AFCs believe women are better than they are, PUAs believe in equality

2. AFCs blame the world, society, and every woman who ever turned him down for any problems he has with women. If a PUA is having a hard time, he looks internally, sees if he has done anything wrong, and addresses himself for weaknesses.

I had a great relationship with my dad, but he never had a talk with me about relationships. He let me figure shit out on my own. It had its positives and negatives. In high school I was miserable and I blamed everyone around me. I blamed the culture of the stereotypical US public high school and the lack of people with similar ideologies. Yeah, there were a lot of dicks there, but I was also a jackass who thought I was smarter than everybody else. I avoided drugs and alcohol but a kid who had one beer while watching a football game was the same as someone who skipped a class to snort a line of coke.

Pickup is a way to start the evolution of a person, socially. It's not about banging a dozen girls every month. I really dont' want that, personally. You can't just wake up and be confident, unfortunately, just like you can't wish yourself to be rich, or thin. And Pickup isn't a quick fix. It's just one method of being happier.