I am going to start off with some simply facts:
PUA teaches guys to be better with women
As with all skills, the distribution of ability follows a bell curve - the majority are average.

With that being said, this therefore means that the majority of men who get into pickup will simply be average with women. Obviously, the more effort you put into practising and leaning the better you will get, but eventually you will hit your natural ability limit - very few men are brilliant with women and very few are completely awful. I feel it is really important to have realistic expectations of how good you are likely to get, by all means aim to be brilliant - but don't shoot yourself if your just "good". Think of it like sport, no matter how much you run not many of you will compete in the men's 100m final - that doesn't mean you can't be fast though!

With that done, we come to the main topic of this post. It's really a simple point, something I have always assumed was obvious but more and more I believe it isn't or that people simply choose to ignore it.

PUA - common sense = creepy

That is it, that is what we shall be thinking about today. Yes, this may end up being a long post - I have some free time and this has been bugging me for a long time, the observations I have made of the so called pua "community" have made me question my view of attraction, the effect of PUA and generally how to be better with women myself. Some of these observations have left me shocked, confused and at times even disgusted at the attitude of some people who call themselves PUA's. Yet, it hasn't all been bad - I have seen some incredibly brilliant people really improve their lives and how happy they are with it.

To start this off, I think we need a baseline AFC. He is shy, introverted and doesn't approach women he doesn't know often. However, on occasion he still gets laid because a friend of a friend took a shine to him and the circumstances are right. He gets into PUA because he wants to feel more in control of his love life rather than leaving it to chance.

This is my first biggest problem with pick up - It is used as a patch up of a much bigger problem.
The guy in question ISN'T bad with women - he isn't lacking the skills needed to attract and seduce women. This is proved by the fact he has had sexual interactions with women and also has many social situation with friends and professionals. So this begs the question - what is the problem?
He is simply not talking to women. He is shy. This guy relies on LUCK to interact with women in a sexual way. Be this from being introduced or her talking to him - never from actually just going up to talk to them.
So the first solution is to simply start talking to women. Just introduce yourself - play a numbers game. It will probably result in you getting laid more - there will be lots of rejections but there will be some success.
But wait, this seems a bit silly still - getting lots of a rejections. Anyone who has even some skill with women will tell you how many opportunities there are in day to day life. People just seem to either not notice them or ignore them. This is possibly the biggest mistake guys who think they are bad with women make - the girl at the coffee shop you see every morning on your way to work who always gives you that massive smile and takes just a little more interest in your day than other people - she is probably into you, or at least wouldn't object to going out on a date. The same is true for the girl on the bus who keeps looking at you and smiling - go say hi. PUA calls these IOI's.

So, if I could give one bit of advice to every guy on the planet to make them better with women - beyond everything else it would be to learn to spot when a women is into you and act upon it. I mean, why try to sell something when the person isn't interested when there is someone begging to buy one? The second most important thing is to just go introduce yourself to people.

Unfortunately, most guys don't see it as that simple - that's why they try to learn new skills from PUA.

This is where guys seem to lose their common sense and feel for social situations and believe everything so called pick up artists tell them and follow it everything they say is the total truth. Do you know what that does - MAKES YOU REALLY CREEPY.

I like calling it creepy because of just how many times I have seen women refer to them as so - I am sure you have heard a women talk about "that creepy guy".

So, let's look at a few of the things PUA teaches - how people make them creepy and how to avoid it.
First thing first - let's look at something I just said was the best thing guys can do: Approach more people.

PUA teaches: See a hot girl, within 3 seconds go and talk to her NOW!!! If you don't you will get AA and be totally screwed forever! GO GO GO, don't think just do it!
Why is makes you creepy: We live in a magical world where people are busy, have lots of things going on and are not simply waiting there for a guy as awesome as you to go and say hi and ask them about what size cube they imagine in a picture. This whole 3 second thing is meant to stop people sitting and waiting for hours/days/weeks to go say hi to a girl they like. Imagine you're on your mobile and some bloke starts talking to you saying how he has to be back at work in 5mins but just had to tell you how brilliant your shoes look - would be rather annoying.

How to actually use it: USE YOUR COMMON SENSE - learn to look at people and what they are doing. The girl briskly walking down the street not making eye contact probably is in a rush - even if you do manage to stop her, do you really think she is going to be all rainbows and butterflies that all you wanted was to try and hit on her? Likewise, the girl sitting on the train opposite you who gave you a smile, she probably wants you to say hi and would be happy to talk to you and maybe give you her number. It is all about looking at the right opportunities and taking them rather than trying to force things to happen. Just make sure you don't use this as an excuse to not talk to people - while lots of people are really busy many aren't, learn to read people quickly. In a club setting, a girl might be interested but if she is rushing around trying to find her friend, she isn't going to want to stop to chat - but after she has found her friend she will be a lot more inclined.

2) Alpha male body langue
What PUA teaches: Stand up straight, shoulders back, don't cross your arms etc etc bla bla whatever. I don't need to go over it all.

How it makes you creepy: People seem to get into the frame of mind that everyone is trying to out alpha them. Seriously, put a few rAFC's in a group and take some pictures and watch them tussle to have their arms on top and to be in the front and to be higher than the others. Seriously, it's laughable. Its damn creepy as well, it comes across as being massively over-compensating for insecurity - you don't have to always assert your authority, sometimes you can just go with the flow.

How to actually use it: USE YOUR COMMON SENSE - yes, have good body language and posture as it will really help you come across well and will help you give a good impression from job interviews to chatting up girls. But for the love of all things sensible, learn to relax a little. Many people associate being ALPHA as having to be the number 1, top dog 24/7. In fact, all you really need to realise is its just about being a confident guy who doesn't take shit.

3) DHV stories
What PUA teaches: People are attracted to people who are fun, interesting and exciting. Therefore, you should tell people about the fun, interesting and exciting things you have done in an emotive and captivating way to make people think you are a cool guy.

How it makes you creepy: Lets ignore the fact that some people lie and just make shit up that never really happened (that's a real slippery slope and I hope it's obvious). The key creepy thing people do with DHV's is to try to make everything into a massive DHV story - I hate to break it to you chuckles, but the majority of things you do are boring and ordinary. Nobody likes the guy who always done something cooler or more interesting than anybody else - it is just annoying. To the same extent, nobody likes people who are a drama queen that over reacts to everything - it just gets annoying! Basically, don't try to be a show-off douche. A prime example is the guy who went to "the best party ever!" every week - it can't always be the best party!

How to actually use it: USE YOUR COMMON SENSE. Don't try to make yourself out to be super amazing guy who has done everything. Don't over exaggerate every story, by all means tell a story with a bit of "shine" but don't try to make it blinding. A great way to stop over exaggerating your shitty stories is to go out and live life! If you actually do exciting, interesting things - you don't have to put any "shine" on the story to make it seem like a DHV. Also, don't think everything needs to be a massive event - remember that time when you were 10 and your little brother was being bullied and you stood up for him, that's a DHV - when you tell the story as he was being bullied by an 8 feet tall mobster with a rocket launcher it just gets stupid.
4) Over analysing
What PUA teaches: Look for her playing with her hair, which way her legs are crossed, how much eye contact she makes, how the dude she is with shakes your hand etc. Basically, try and look at all the subtle clues and base your response off them.

Why is makes you creepy: Firstly, it can REALLY make you live in your head. Social situations cannot be viewed like chess - it's not a case of when they move their queen you move your knight. There are simply too many factors that influence things to be able to react to them all. Still, living in your head isn't that creepy, it will just stop you getting a feel for things and make you seem almost robotic. The bigger problem is that it makes you see things as a big deal that really aren't. Most things people do are very very subtle and do not mean anything more - this over reaction to the small subtle cues makes you come across slightly stalkerish.

How to actually use it: USE YOUR COMMON SENSE. Use these subtle clues to help you gauge if a woman wants you to open them, this is when a single smile or prolonged eye contact can be used on its own as the worst that will happen is you read it wrong and they were busy. Now, aside from that you never want to use a single signal as a marker for how the person is feeling - instead, try to use them to get a general idea of how they are feeling. Some call it intuition, but this is what you really want to learn as it will allow you to know when things are going well and when things aren't going well. It's about building up the big picture rather than each little thing, build your social awareness rather than your social specifics.
5) eye contact
What PUA teaches: This was going to be part of the alpha section, but it deserves its own section. PUA teaches guys to hold eye contact, don't be the first to look away etc.

Why it makes you creepy: Imagine you're in a girls shoes, a guy you have never seen before looks at you dead in the eyes and just stares - 3 seconds later he is over asking you to imagine a cube or to tell him about your relationship with your dad. Seriously, if you can't see how that could easily freak you the hell out - then I just don't know what to say.

How to actually use it: USE YOUR COMMON SENSE. Seriously, look people in the eyes, its confident and makes people feel more connected to you. Do not stare though - that's rude and creepy.

Right, I know this has been a long post - there was probably a lot more I could have said and more examples; but I hope you can see what I am getting at.
I want to leave you with some advice - forget about trying to add new ways to attract women before you stop doing the things that push them away, be that showering or being creepy.

Madals

I agree with your concept entirely. Some of the individual points a little less so.

Fundamentally however, outside people will always think PUA is strange; it's basically learning, and in some cases basic, social skills through books.

Feel free to go into more detail - discussion is always welcome!

A good thread.

Your obsevations of late i believe are shared by many on here.

If it's a discussion you want i can at least point out a few obsevations of my own.

Firsty.

1. The new modern day term PUA. Pick up artist. (player)And all the other jargon.
Herewithin lies the biggest problem.The former title was ladies man or medalion man.
Both hated by vast amounts of women 20 years ago like pick up artists are today.
(by many, not all women)


2. Another point that nobody on this site seems to mention is that women are a bit like the BORG, they adapt quickly.
I bet most furry hat wearing pick up artists in california have had to ditch the mystery method for a new system.
Maybe worth a go in Libya. lol

3. Most if not all young guys i know are into pick up or know of it.
I try to out a lot of them, by calling them out on obvious (Ross Jeffries lines) which they then deny.And yes trying to out Alpha there friends.(This is really damaging)

To start with in the last 20 years (remember i am old 39) the world has changed a lot.
When i was 20, everybody smoked and lived in the pub. All construction workers were having a few beers lunchtime and back to work.
There was no such thing as health and safety. (he was geek who everybody ignored) nowerdays the most important man on site.
Nobody complained as much as today because we only had 4 t.v. channels and the shite internet connection that we all moan about today was not a problem as it was not invented. And nobody new what a mobile phone was.
Your first car was mk2 escort with rust that your parents helped to insure.

Game as we call it today consisted of buying women as many martini's as possible to get her drunk.
Not a very good system, but most people were happy back then as half the country was intoxicated most of the time.
The only creepy guy that existed back then was usually mentally ill.

Now lets move on to the presant day.

To start with your average guy AFC or RAFC (MUCH THE SAME TO ME).Has been brought up on the internet.
In the last decade guys were only interested in PORN.
NOW it's being ALPHA, (THE MAN) (ALPHA SUPER BIRD PULLER MAN).

Everybody is out of there tiny mind on a massive power trip thanks to PUA.
The women are all orange. Aggresive or mental.
Guys are a best confused.
By acting out there new on line identity in the real world they soon find that there are a lot of clones running around doing the same mental shit.
I now see an entirely new SPAM in clubs and bars where nobody is happy and nobody can figure out why.
It's like a new chaos theory.
A lot of people don't drink anymore. And they don't do drugs.
And smokers are an endangered species.
The result.

Bingo.

We are all bored and depressed.
I'm not saying you need to smoke a lot get pissed and do a lot of coke.
There are enough problems with people abusing they above.

But your average guy today is in my honest opinion is.

SCARED TO LIVE.

So he goes on line and re-invents himself as a PUA.
The result was obvious.
Some realy cool guys got better, some worse.
And the twisted manipulating weird fuckers became jedi masters.

The problem is our society.
I remember my father saying to me.
The world is fucked up. (I grew up in a hard tough WORLD)_
(YOU HAVE GROWN UP IN A SICK WORLD)

_________________
Its getting Hot out there.

Its all to easy.

I want to be a tree!

Well that's one way to look at it.

I kinda used Pua get break out of my safety barrier, and it worked. Fact is, it is hard to approach a girl, ask her out on a date or even go in for the kiss for the very first time. And we all remember our first time in the bedroom, which was terrifying.

But hell, I did it!

I read the mystery method and toke a few concepts from it. I tried out copying exactly the things said in the book. If you think that's silly you are naive, every type of learning starts out with imitation.

I'm 19 years old, most of my friends haven't given it much thought, how to attract a girl. They are nice guys, but the advice I get on here is most often dead on. I consider everyone who has helped me around here as the older brother who could share some of his experiences with me (I don't quite have that in real life so...).

After a while I got the hang of the concept and now I can interact with girls. I don't believe I have changed in any other way, rather than getting more experienced and confident in my interactions with other people. Pua to me is just a tool, I don't become the tool, I don't get affected by the tool, but the tool has helped me during some important sticking points in not only love, but also life.

For me, Pua was an enriching experience.
If I was being creepy while working out some of the problems so be it;)

Great post madals, I completely agree with you on the majority of your points. The community completely over analyses everything and it turns you into a freak.

You could analyse the exact technique of Tiger Wood's golf swing to the most minute detail, but your still going to be shit if you don't practice.

However I think that some points you make aren't correct:

That there is a 'wall' for how good you can become as a PUA. You use the sprinting analogy in your example, but that bears no relation to PUA, because sprinting relies on genetics and everybody has limitless social skills they can acquire (unless they have some mental illness)

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Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small people - Muhammad Ali

Awesome madals! You are my number 1 idol! If you were a chick i would totally do the cube on you do you like bell pepper?! Do you do you?!

Anyways "puas" are men. Men have egos.

Lots of people have delusions of belonging to an elite class to make themselves feel better.

I WILL MAKE IT CLEARER BY USING ATHELETE IMAGERY:

There are guys out there who think they are "athletes" even though they only work out 3 times a week and quit at the faintest sign of a burn. In order to be considered an athlete, you need to be training like an athlete 7 days a week (if resting is part of training then you are still training) with the right science, and pushing beyond pain.

Similarly there are lots of of guys out there who know pua and study/apply some pua. However they do not do it often enough, they choose misleading pick up science, and flinch at each sign of rejection.

One would need to be very consistent, choose a pick up science and dedicate to it, and push through the pain.

I agree with applying COMMON SENSE but if you want to master a particular skillset you need to surrender doubts to the science in the beginning and then evaluate and use your common sense whether it is working AFTER you have tried it enough times to make a reasonable call. Take it from a guy who have mastered lots of talents.

The problem in the pua community is that it is made up of poeple. People who fail and give up will fail and give up in pua. People who do not accept failure, get up recalculate and come back better in other things they do will be te same in pua.

Right now im also studying boxing, and brazilian jui jitsu. My hand speed is good i have the footwork down, and the submission holds. However i havent actually sparred with anyone (except play wrestle with some girls after sex), so even though im tempted to feel a boost of ego thinking im a "fighter" i actually have to go out there and have considerable success in matches to truly be one.

This also applies to pua/player/casanova/etc. You are not really one if you are not having consistent success out there in the field.

So Madals do you wanna have my children puuuleeeease!!!


As for the walls. Fuck the walls! The only wall i know is the legal age.

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Bow chika wow wow

Thank you for this... Newbies need to learn this right away. It would eliminate a lot of idiotic questions.

_________________
Don't hate, just dominate.

I like the post, pretty much agree with all of it, but I think you can't allways just focus on approach invites for numbers if your out to grab numbers during day game you can get tons of numbers by approaching girls who are ''busy'' also really really hot girls hb9-10 are way less likely to give AI i find, but often after i approach them they are super receptive and basicly it was like i got an AI but didn't know it (but of coarse every girl has her own tastes)

Thanks for the feedback guys - keep the discussion going
I knew this would be a controversial point, but I think its needed. To be frank, believing everyone has limitless social skills is naive - empathy, compassion etc are all personality traits that some people are just better at. I am not saying you cannot learn to a very high level, but there will be a point where I believe your genetic ability to notice small expressions and read situations will hold people at certain levels. All social situations involve using your brain, why would you argue everyone is equal - other aspects of life that involve high level brain function have people widely different (some people are good at language, some good at maths for example).

The point is though, there is no reason to really worry about it as the point hard work and learning will get you is beyond what the majority of men would wish for - what I was trying to get across is everyone has a different level of ability with things, by all means try to get good - just don't get stressed if you can't get great.

This would be a really awesome post were it not for the screaming question of.

"What the fuck is common sense?"

Dope post.

1) Common Sense
2) PUA

You have that backwards, you're going to end up as a highly respected member on puahate.com

USE YOUR COMMON SENSE = Calibration.

Common sense, to me= Intuitive understanding of generally accepted social behavior.

You don't have to be a pickup master to know that it is generally unacceptable to get up in the middle of the opera and start yelling at the person next to you.

The issue we have is that pickup turns some of common sense upside down. The key is knowing which parts to flip, and which to keep the same.

_________________
Don't hate, just dominate.

If you asked the 5 year old across the street to make you breakfast tommorrow morning using his common sense of what deep down he really think would make you happy.... You KNOW that after a bit of pondering you would wake up tommorrow to the 5 year old master-peice of Deep Fried Coco pops in Mars bar milk with extra sugar accompanied by a Wine gum omlete and a glass of improvised Fanta/Diet Coke/ Ginger beer combo cocktail.
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In other news...

I'd really like a copy of the revised common sense manual if any of you guys have a spare kicking around..... I had the Brookes and Maxwells version 3.0 but I understand we're all operating on Brookes and Maxwells standardised common sense version 4.5 right now, so I'd appreciate it if anyone could help me catch up with everyone else.