Your claim: Learning "direct game" is a process which is just as weird, if not more so, than learning mystery method, and involves a similar process, even on a deeper level.

If this is what you're arguing, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree quite strongly.

Here are some things that happen when you learn mystery method

1. Learn routines - things to say in certain situations that are the kinds of things high-value, attractive, alpha males would say.

2. Assume she is higher value than you - you have to "neg" her to lower her value, and "DHV" to raise yours

3. You can't telegraph interest until she has give you at least 3 IOIs - you can't tell her you're attracted until you KNOW for sure she's attracted to you, and you have to pretend to be NOT interested in her to begin with using "false disqualifiers"

4. You have to build comfort with her over a period of hours before it's ok to have sex - you have to show you connect with her as a person and can't just have sex with her quickly ("fool's mate")

Here are the problems

(1) Routines are not YOU or a reflection of who you are and what you'd actually say. Girls might be attracted initially, but they'll lose interest relatively quickly when they discover you're not actually like that at all. They are essentially LIES.

=> Direct teaches to be completely honest, and OPEN by explaining why you're talking to her and expressing a sincere interest in her, usually in the form of a compliment

(2) Assuming she's higher value means you're always coming from a position lower down, and trying to one-up her in some competition. What kind of a man assumes he's lower value than her? Aren't you supposed to "be the prize?"

=> Direct teaches that you ARE the prize and she's lower value than you. You come in ASSMING attraction and the frame is "I choose you." She should be so lucky!

(3) Waiting for IOIs is teaching guys to have even LESS balls! Waiting to make sure their advances will be "rejection-proof" is selling guys an idea that CANNOT be true! No approach is rejection-proof. It may protect a guy's ego, but it's not gonna help him. Rather than avoiding rejection at all costs, why not learn how to actually DEAL with it like a man, and not give a shit instead!

=> Direct teaches to OPEN by telling her you're interested. Sure, she may reject you, but you spend a minute finding out, and that enables you to spend more time focusing on the girls who ARE actually interested. The idea of falsely disqualifying, again, is frankly just LYING. How can you respect yourself if you can't even be HONEST with a woman about what you want? What are you so afraid of?

(4) Depending on what you want and your approach, there will be women that are receptive to your approach. If you want casual sex, then it's ok to be clear about that, and there will be plenty of women who are in a club specifically to get laid. To approach them and try and build comfort will simply waste their time, and they'll get bored and find a guy who just wants to shut up and fuck!

– Can you explain how being upfront and honest with your intentions by being direct is AT ALL similar to learning mystery method indirect routines, on ANY level, and how being straightforward with women is "delusional?"

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MM is not complicated at all which is the problem actually.

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The issue is for as "false" as some people think it is to take an anecdote that you usualy tell at parties and turn it into a routine that shows a certain quality, is that the story-teller and usually the audience know its an act, even when enjoying the performance.

Someone who does this always knows, "it's a routine" they can leave it at a fun little gimmick to use when flirting.

These are the people, for whom sarging is TRULY just "talking to girls" a fun activity with little tricks and tips that can be picked up and put down at will.

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Now take yourself as an example of the opposite (only to a certain extent) in particular the strife you were going through with that girl who you were wanting to commit to.

PUA's are the only group of humans I know of that when they've found an individual that motivates them to share a deep commited connection will react not with joy but with confusion and despair.

The reason:
Modern PU envelopes the PUA's life, tricks him into thinking he is immune to rejection, high value, not needy and has a certain "personality"; usually through simple emotional supression. And its only when a girl turns up who appeals to the human in him, that he starts to realise as you have realised... that something isn't quite right....

Both forms of Pick up currently feature PUA's trying to mimic something, an MM guy doesn't text until two days after the n-close to mimic not being "interested" while a modern PUA tries to force himself to not care about rejection through suppression.

MM creates routines that are easily seen as false, but there is no real problem there. Yes, MM OFTEN leads to guys with no redeeming qualities, trying to patch their life up with pre-scripted lines.

But, while contemporary PU has escaped this, it's jumped straight into a world of not false routines but false personalities.

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The fact that people can't seem to seperate "direct/indirect" debates from discussions on ideologies about personal values, limiting beliefs, sub-text and the nature of human relations shows that for these people, Pick up is MORE than just talking to girls.


It is much healthier to be able to discuss sarging without having to use our PU theories as defining charateristics of our-selves.

That I could say "Hey, I prefer going direct, becuase it sends a stronger message of confidence and makes sure the girl knows right from the start what I am after"

AND LEAVE IT AT THAT!

Fin why are you bashing the MM?

Also at nowhere does it say the girl is on a higher level/value than you. It teaches you to not put the pussy on a pedestal.

Also it doesn't say you need to learn canned material or wear big stupid hats to peacock. You take what you need from it and make it your own. That was the underlying message throughout each section.

I think MM is the best method because it's PROVEN.

Well I took me three days of hard thought to figure this one out but you said it I should take my time

I'm guessing that since the pick-up is a two side medal and since "it has nothing to do with the girl" than obviously it has something to do with me.
So I thought when I go into the set my head gets all filled up with analyzing the set/envirovment/outside factors/yada yada... my head suddenly flips into self-destructive mode when it produces informations like others are watching/I'm going to fuck up/Past reactions... AND I probably have such an adrenaline shot that I delusionaly belive all this.
Adrenaline shortens my reaction time and body gets an automatic response to that by going into self protecting mode not because of the girl, but because of the other imaginary factors. That causes shaking/voice cracking/slumping posture and...

oh shit I overanalyzed it againg

No but really I think that's it

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How my life looks like right now: STUDY HARD, PARTY HARD

Good, you got it for the major part. Sorry for the late reply, but I've been absent for a long while due to vacation abroad. I actually can contribute some more thanks to that 'vacation' to this topic. During the time that I was abroad, I was responsible for an entire educational camp for a tour operator. All by all, I was responsible for 70 people, a lot of materials and was organising constantly. It taught me a lot about myself and my capabilities.

I noticed that whatever came at me, was my task to handle and the more I worked myself into those situations, the easier it felt for me to handle them. At the end of the month, I wasn't suprised or nervous anymore to handle stuff. I got back 2 days ago and felt the urge to go out.

Strangely enough, I was so calm that my friends hardly recognised me during the night. And strangely enough, I had my normal amount of approaches and closes, almost trippled. I wasn't nervous, I was calm. As the silence before the storm.

The thing that you must realise that the outcome of the situation only depends on how you react to it. If you go in nervous with shaking hands, the person you are talking too will feel that.. it's a subconcious way of communication. The more calm you are, the more secure, confident and sexual you are.

≠ LD

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I dont know the proper terms and all that but I always saw it as whilst PU is just a little skill and a bit of fun and adventure to add into your life, you do build habits, push some personal boundaries etc growing as a person.

Its with any skill, if you can push yourself to put your ego on the line, take a few hits to produce a result then of course you grow as a person, the same goes for a film director putting 5years worth of work onto the screen for people to like/dislike, or the band/singer, the artist, the CEO at a company, the mother making her home and garden look good, the dad raising his kids right.

PU can be a chance for people to get a few things to grips and develop their personality. Also forces you to reflect on yourself a bit

But yeah, at the end of the day its not a massive deal compared to having good friendships and career etc but relationships a big thing.

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"You don't want girls to think you suck dick at fucking pussy"
-Seth (Superbad)

Good post Fin,

I have to say that overlooking self help would be a mistake for a lot of guys on here. I am studying self help and NLP intensively in order to become more confident and just a more effective person in all areas of my life. I have learned a lot from self help and I would be in a real mess with out it. I'm not going to go into too much detail about my personal problems because this is not the place for it but i was recommended 'the game' and another self help book simultaneously by different people and both of which have been very useful.

However, I do agree that you mustn't loose sight of what you are actually trying to do- pick up women. If you are not practicing what you preach and going on the forums you won't improve. Practice makes perfect. I had some issues that need sorted out and i am still in the process of doing that- but it never stopped me from going out on field, i never read 'the game', 'Mystery Method' and NLP books cover to cover before going out and actually attempting to use what I learned. Think about it this way, you wouldn't read a text book for school or university/college and wait till you've read the whole thing cover to cover before attempting the exercises in it would you? Treat self help books in the same way, as tools not as definitive instructions- pick and choose what you need/don't need and keep referring back to your sticking points and properly analyse them so you know how to deal with them.

I find this is the correct way to use these tools.

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hootsmon

I like the post. Quit debating MM, we beat that horse to death regularly enough without bringing it up in random threads.

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Don't hate, just dominate.

I find the PU community to be at a healthy place. I left before because it was unhealthy.

As for the debates over MM or direct!? I dunno? Find what works best and discard the rest. Why do these long winded debates become so negative?

As for overcoming personal issues through research before field experience, why not? Isn't that the university route? Wouldn't you heal a broken hand before learning to play guitar?

I had a couple more things to say, but they've slipped my mind. Maybe for the better.

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"Life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced."

- Soren Kierkegaard

Yes, I agree. The only problem is that people often get caught up in theory and never put it to use. But, as I already said, this approach helped me a lot to actually go out and do it. I guess it depends on the person.

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rAFC and yes, I'm a chick.

I have bursts of being a lady, but it doesn't last long.

Well if I may, I personaly think that the real reason is that we guys are afraid to get our feelings hurt. It is fear of what others will think. We get all those crazy ideas (at least I was) that if I go and talk to a girl and I made some mistake or get shy in front of her that the girl will tell her girlfriends and they all will laugh at me.
But guess what. It won't happen. For the simple reason that you had the courage to go and just talk to her.
So throw your fears aside and just talk to her. She will appreciate that
And I agree with You the more calm you are the better.

I disagree, and no disrespect Soren but I think that's a bad analogy.

If your personal issue is lack of women, than you can't try and tell me the best way to over come this is by NOT meeting women. If I had to get from Paris to Berlin as fast as possible (oh wait here we go another analogy) then I wouldn't be sitting at home perfectly folding my clothes and scrubbing my toe nails, I'd just chuck everything in the nearest bag I could find and bloody get a move on!

I'm a real throw yourself in the deep end guy because that has been the only way I've ever really progressed in life. If someone came to me and was down in the dumps because he couldn't find a girlfriend, I'd say "ok jump in the car we're going to town"

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That's good it works for you vic, people are different though and I do think it's good a person eliminates some of the underlying longterm personal issues before jumping into PU. I'm not talking about slight approach anxiety or stuff like that, but deeper issues, if you know what I mean

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rAFC and yes, I'm a chick.

I have bursts of being a lady, but it doesn't last long.

direct and indirect both work, the debate is a farce,
natural vs routine, might as well be the same, every natural i have ever met does the same fucking shit all the time,
theory/mental masturbation vs just going out and doing it, is subjective to opinion, and it is mine that both are benificial

THE BIGGEST PROBLEM PUA'S HAVE, well not real pua's but all the AFC/RAFC in the forum, is showing interest, how the fuck can you lay a girl without hitting on her?, your not going to neg her into a blowjob, especially if you don't touch her,

just saying,
pickup is just talking to girls,
talking to girls with a plan,
a ''game'' plan (see what i did thar?)