Hi, new here. I've read The Game, Mystery Method, body language and other related books, watched VH1 show, read articles/blogs online - so have a good amount of knowledge (almost too much - getting confused). Haven't had much chance to put things into practice but I do try here and there.

I'm a decent looking guy, smart, funny - but really low confidence (was raised codependent/nice-guy - have read No More Mr Nice Guy). The last two women I dated were models (one was probably pretty darn close to a 10) but they were both just out of abusive marriages and I think I was the rebound guy (kind, sensitive, etc - all the things they missed from the bad boy they were with).

Anyway, now I'm dating again - I want a longterm relationship - looks aren't that important (well they are - the person has to be attractive to me but not super model gorgeous) but I seem to often encounter very confusing girls (in some cases outright crazy). The latest girl is cute, funny, fun, etc - but short, a bit chubby, etc (I don't mind - just so you have an idea on possible rating). I like her but things go in spurts (not in the good way!).

I met her on a personals site and I've just been hanging out with her (only) for a few weeks (although still communicating with a few others) - she works a couple jobs and hangs out with friends/family - but there are times when I don't know what she's up to. This past Sat things were going well but when I went to her place on Sunday night she said she was grumpy (but didn't give a reason) and everything was weird/awkward.

There's just a bunch of things that don't add up about the last few days but she has reasons (however flimsy) when I ask directly and says she's looking forward to seeing me tonight, etc. So we're going for dinner, then coming back to my place (for the first time - I've been to hers a couple times) to have some wine. She seems really interested in sex (lots of references here and there) but so far we've only kissed - she actually intiated the first one - I've tried to push it further over subsequent dates but it just hasn't progressed.

[sorry this is long] So... what do I do? I'm seeing her tonight - then probably not again until next Sunday night - unless I go out with her and her friends on her bday this Fri. I like her but she doesn't seem that into me sexually (but there's enough interest for kissing). And I checked her online profile for the first time in weeks and coincidentally she had been on 10 mins before I got there Sunday night. Do I call her out on her behavior lately? Do I ask direct questions about where things stand with us? Do I act like I don't care? (if I do, how to transition to.... -> ) Do I get more aggressive back at my place? Something else?

Thank you!

From my experience, never do this. Women tend to have bad reaction to logic, you need to work their emotions up.

You seem to be moving in a straight line, showing all your interest yet it seems she doesn't reciprocate. Sounds like my last relationship.

You are doing all the chasing, sounds pretty AFC, sit back a bit, let her do some of the chasing now. If she's into you, she'll start wondering why you're not trying anymore and she'll start moving in. You can then do some push-pull to play with her emotions.

Here's a quote that I try to apply nowadays:

"He who cares least controls the relationship"

It does make sense, if you care more, you're afraid to lose. If you're afraid to lose, normal reaction is to pull. Once you start pulling, the girl starts pushing, up to a point where you pull too much, come up as AFC and get dumped.

To relate to my last relationship, I had the same behavior. I got dumped. I completely shut her down and 2 weeks later she re initiated contact and ever since, I've been doing push-pull and she keeps coming back for more.
Don't go overboard with this one you don't have to end up in the FZone. Bring up sexual flirting, neg her if she picks up on it, push-pull, escalate kino once you get IOI.
Don't go too aggressive when she is cold, else you'll come out as creepy. Think of the frog you put in boiling water, it'll jump right out. But if you put it in cold water and heat up the water, it'll stay in and die.

You do want to escalate kino whenever you get IOI, don't let those run past you else you'll come up as non-confident and look pretty AFC.


As for tonight, just play it cool, don't go there with an agenda, refer to what I said first, push-pull... You say you have low confidence but this is due to you coming up with an agenda and you have anxiety over failing to complete that agenda. Just take it easy and have a fun time, if you do, she will.

Thanks for your reply Vanazzul.
LOL. Yeah, I've noticed. It's funny that often they ask where things stand. As for working emotions up, I understand the idea of that and the concept of push/pull - but am not very good at putting into practice. Like for example, I can't think of much to say for a push that doesn't come off as just mean.

And you're right about the straight line interest - am having a tough time breaking that based on what I thought was the right thing to do growing up (ie. like a girl, express interest -> happy ending). It also gets a bit confusing because some women (one of my ex's for example) really responds to being over-the-top idealized and that seems to get them initially more than the push/pull (although the latter keeps them holding on).

For current girl, the pulling back is scary - if she's got other guys waiting in the wing. So far she doesn't seem to have had much time to hang out with them but if I'm not around, I'm positive she'll be out with someone. I've never really been into kissing (etc) a girl who is also kissing (etc) other guys.
I've heard that - and agree. I guess you could execute that in such a way though that the relationship no longer exists. There was another girl I went out a couple times with and I was doing all the chasing - one time I pulled back she showed a bunch more interest, another time: nothing (ie. very little since). She claims she's really busy but I don't know if she's not into me, has another guy now, or is just really busy.
Can you give some specific examples or is there a really good article/link that has some?
Ok here's a good (ie. bad) example from last night's call... Her: "I'm getting ready to hang out in bed for a couple hours and... watch Survivor online." [the pause wasn't intentional flirting - she was walking to another room] Me: "When you paused, I thought you were going to say something else." Her: "Ha, yeah I walk around in a black lace teddy." Me: "Now I'm going to have to spend a couple hours in bed! " Her: "Yuck, thanks for the mental image." I didn't apologize or react negatively or anything - but I just don't get it - obviously I should have said something else there [but what? maybe what she said to me? Seems mean, especially given she's probably body self-conscious] - and from her side - she likes sex (supposedly), she seems to like kissing me (and being close), so I don't know if what I said is a turnoff for her in general, or because she doesn't feel stronger about me, or she's using push on me, or what. I just have trouble coming up with good things to say in the moment - practice I guess.

Your reminder on kino after IOI, and on not having an agenda & just having fun are very helpful.

You're better than those guys, just tell yourself that (whether it's true or not matters less). You have something different to offer. Remember that most of the guys out there will not get her on an emotional roller-coaster. Most of these guys will have the same typical AFC behavior. Show her you are better.

What if she hooks up with one of these guys one night? Who cares... if she has a slight interest in you, she'll wonder where you've been and we you see her again, just be confident and you'll come across as way better than any of those guys. Make her feel things she doesn't normally feel (she has already been to restaurants, she has already seen movies, etc...). Remember, you are better than those other guys.
Of course she will. That's how it is, she won't be with you 100% of the time, she will go out with girl/guy friends and there's nothing you can do about it. Even if you guys end up being exclusive, she will go out and some dude will hit on her. If you have built enough attraction with her and kept that attraction going, she won't be doing anything with these guys since you are better than those guys. (See where I'm going here?)

It has to be a game of push-pull. When she showed interest, how did you reply? Did you come back as a little doggy pet or did you come out as strong, confident, busy man? This probably influenced the second time where she hasn't shown any interest.

The caring less works if she has interest. If there is no interest at all, then it doesn't change much. To make this logic, if her interest level is 5 and yours appears to be 3, chances are she'll wonder why that is and try to dig. The opposite (hers is 5 and yours appears to be you'll come across as a push-over and she will slowly move out. If she has no interest and you try to show less interest... it's impossible... I mean 0 = 0, you can't go -1.
This is tricky, I don't like using stuff other people made up, it doesn't sound/appear natural at all. I mean you always sound better when you're talking about something that happened to you rather than talking about something that happened to someone on tv. Sure, you'll be able to tell all the facts, but there will be no emotion (or faked emotion) that story. Remember, girls are all about emotions.

General concept about push-pull is you never go all out about showing your interest. If you show interest, kill it right after with a Cocky & Funny comment. Key thing here is that you want to use it when you're showing interest, you want her guessing "Does he like me or not?". Don't use it on genuine comments, if you think she's looking pretty in her pink dress, tell her, don't push back after, that would make you look mean.

It could be something quite easy... like if you both like the same type of food, you could say something along the line of "Wow, we do have a lot in common, that's a good thing, if you weren't such a weirdo I'd considering dating you". Taken out of context, that would be a horrible line, but say she had been doing weird things during the evening, it would be a hit.

As for your phone call conversation... well basically you don't want to bring sex up. You want to let wonder if you're thinking about it or not, she has to dig in, you basically served it up on her plate, which is why she responded that way. Sexual flirting basically means that, make her wonder if your thinking about sex, and if she asks about it, neg her, if she doesn't than so be it, move on to the next round, until she picks up.

All this being said, forget about all of it for tonight. Go there, have fun, be yourself, and remember, you are better than all the other guys out there.

Thanks again for your response! I read it before going out but wanted to wait to reply until after the date. I did this...
And it went WAY better than I expected.

Just wanted to add that I appreciate the refresher on things like push/pull - I read that quite a while ago - and since then dated someone with Borderline PD (one of the outright crazy women I mentioned) - where there's push/pull as well, but over a longer time period. So I was thinking more along those lines now (which is harder for me to maintain - again without it being forced or mean) - and forgot about the little short-term in convo type stuff.

I still have a lot of q's - things that are confusing or don't make sense (ie. contradictory) about PU/women, and what to do in specific situations.

Best regards.

Can I ask for more suggestions here or do I need to create a new topic?

So I tried a bit of flirting by email today - but didn't seem to go so well - and that's what seems to be happening when I try the PU/bad-boy/edgy type stuff with her. Could be me (probably), or her not responding to it these days (she used to like douchebag guys but she's really trying to change - and does seem sincere about it), or something else.

Anyway, here's how it went... Her: "toilet paper over or under? better answer carefully." Me: "Over and I'm not changing Do you like it on top or bottom?" Her: "Are we still talking about TP?" Me: "Of course, what else?" Her: "I'm over too - if it was under when I was there, I would have switched it." ... I waited quite a while to reply to this thinking over possible responses and eventually went with "Good, cuz that's how I like it! "

So I'm trying to do the flirting, but then play innocent (which isn't a neg, I know), be strong, etc. But this doesn't come easy to me. I want to be me but I like her - so I'm trying to not be boring nice guy. I think I'm trying too hard to be funny/flirty/etc - whatever the case it doesn't feel like it's getting too good a response (but I know being overly nice doesn't either) - so I'm not sure what to do. Thoughts?