so today i went to a social dance, and i flirted with some girls (it is a normal thing to flirt with ppl u dance with), and the girl from a town like 20 mins away from mine she laughed a lot when she spoke to me and she touched me on my shoulder when i passed her and it seemed like she liked me but i did not know what to talk about to build rapport. it seems like there is never enough time to build rapport with women (so i can ask them out), i always worry about rejection, and even when a lot of time passes, i still dont feel rapport with them and often the conversation ends with an awkward pause. today, though i've made progress, i saw a girl from another dance who knows me and she was there alone and stood lost and self consious i came up and say hi, she remembered my name, i told her i did not remember hers, she excused herself to get water and then came back to the same place where we talked, so im assuming she wanted me to talk to her more, i think she gets embarassed a lot and has social anxiety. she goes to this dance that is full of old people every week, rather than go to a dance that is full of young people, that is nearby. so i'm guessing she might beanxious/embarassed/avoidant/insecure, but i might be projecting my own feelings on to her. i asked her if she wants to dance, she was like fine sure, and i said playfully hey if you say it like that unexcited i wont dance with you, and then it was like an unsure moment like i was not sure if i want to dance with her and she got embarassed and i said "am i embarassing you?" ans she said maybe yes i am, we danced and she kept telling me "no you need to move your hips this way, you keep turning, bla bla" it was annoying and i got embarassed and i told "shut up i'm new and im still learning" and i told her "holly shit you are a good dancer" - she was dancing she was a child - and she said "well if you want to lead in the dance you cannot do what you are doing" most girls dont correct me on the dance floor, they just laugh it off, i dunno, maybe i overreacted, maybe she was just teasing me, whatever, i just felt a little insecure. and then i said "i want to dance with you more. do you want to dance somewhere outside of this venue" and she said "Pyuya, I live in another state!" so I felt rejected and I said "fine be that way" and left. my analysis is that i feel insecure and act in a insecure defensive way, but i keep telling myself that it's ok because i do it playfully and as a joke.

i think i gotta be more direct with women - shose a woman i feel attracted to and talk to her and let her know i like her and want to meet her for that purpose, and also i got to learn how to build rapport with people. Dr Burns' flirting techniques help a lot, i feel like i can flirt my way to getting close to women, it helps. I think i am just afraid and so I dont create the intimacy/rapport/feeling of togetherness with women. I shoot women down when they reach out to me perhaps.

i also went to a bar and talked to a woman who said she is boring and i gave her a a hip bump and said see you are not boring anymore i cured you. we talked she gave me some ioi's (leaning in, letting me touch her shoulder, smiling) but then she turned around and went back to her friends and said bye. i thought ok, just approach the next woman in line like Dr Burns says, and i talked to a woman at the bar who liked my dancing (i was dancing by myself in place) and then i tried to open two sets on the dance floor with playfull dancing, and did not open anyone else because i felt anxious and the bar was full of guys. i did this Dr Burns exercise:

What are the Benefits of me believing that I am a bad at talking to women (and ppl) and therefore less date-able. The benefit is that I have a reason to avoid talking to women, will avoid the intimacy, and wont risk rejection, and some women might like how i talk and it would conflict with my negative self image.

The Disadvantages of believing this is that I feel ashamed and I avoid talking to people, and therefore am not creating relationships or getting to know people.

My revise belief is that my conversational difficulty does not make me any less worthwhile at a person.

i go to this social dance every week. the girls who are regulars are playful and flirty with me. i was teasing one of them who likes me (but gave me run around when i asked her out over fb), i said "how could they let you teach?" (she signed up to be one of the volunteer dancing teacher) she said "i am going to go cry now" when i am teasing or being playful, i fall into being very negative. i tend to be a negative self critical thinker, and the negativity reflects in my teasing/flirting. so my goal is to try to avoid being negative or critical or putting myself or people down even jokingly or playfully. one of the girls who is a little plump, but nice and attractive, she said she is thirty, and i said lets go to the water fountain, we went and hung out there for like 10 minutes. i kept wanting to ask to meet her during the week, but kept thinking i have to be smooth and should wait for the right moment. i ended up not asking her. my goal is to ask her next week.

i asked a girl at a coffee shop who was sitting next to me "is your internet slow?" she said "yes it's a little slow" she made eye contact and i smiled, although she did not really smile back. i said that as she was leacing her table. next time maybe i will ask "how is your internet working?" when i am just sitting at a table.

i was at a bar with a cover band and when i was leaving instead of shaking a girl's hand i did one of the cool handshakes like black gangster people do, nad with another girl i did the knuckle bump. i think that was playful. i will do that more when i say bye to the girls at the dance - smileand hug when i meet them (the ones i am friendly with) and a cool handshake when i say bye.

tonoight i am not sure where to go out, or whether stay in clean and study. it's friday night. i might go salsa dancing, although i do not know how to dance salsa yet. i heard its a SPAM

i have been using Dr Burns advice to dress in different styles that i would never wear. i need matching pants and shoes. i need matching outfits, that match top to bottom. also i need to get used to cleaning my expensive shirts so they are ready to be worn on friday and saturday. i leave them hanging dirty for days and then dont have something nice to wear when it is time to go out.

i wonder if i should call the punk chick. she is not very attractive and she kind of a tomboy and takes the lead. she is the one who picked me up at the bar and stole me from the cute blonde. she left me the voicemail that last weekend she is out of town, but this weekend she can meet me. i am thinking my goal with her is to dance with her because i would enjoy dancing/grinding with a girl and to talk to her because i want to get outside my own head and learn to listen and understand and connect with women and to figure out what i want from her (do i like her even?) and take the lead. say i dont like her and want to leave, then i will do that and not worry about rejecting her. or say i like her and want to give her a hug or flirt with her, i should just go for it, and let the cjhips fall where they may. and if she wants to do something, and i dont, i should tell her that and not worry about what she thinkgs. and not try to please her or worry about her feelings, put my feelings first.

So the punk chick did not call me back the second time. This just means she is not Available and puts her overal rating from 2.5/5 to 1.5/5. My goal is to date women who are 2/5 and above. I rate women not just on looks, but on Availability (are they available to me, as in do they want to date me?), Looks, Personality, Career, Distance from where I live. For each I give her one point.

So last Friday I was bored and not having anyone to go out with as usual. No problem! I go out by myself. I come early to the nightclub with the nice dance music, spearkers, early while the dance floor is still empty. I stand in the middle and stretch, then I dance by myself, solo. Night club fills up. I dance by myself, I stand near girls and try to make eye contact and dance playfully, but they turn away and/or leave. One time this one girl starts dancing back in front of me but then starts grinding her friend and they turn away. I feel desperate and rejected. I dance by myself feeling conflicted - on one hand I want to find a dance partner or pick up a girl, on the other hand most guys in the club dont dance, are alone, and if they approach, they get rejected, if not at first, but eventually they do. Btw, during the night an older woman maybe in her mid thirties, who was following a guy, stopped, put her hand on my chest and said "I like your moves." Like I've learned in the Dr Burns book, I agree with her compliment, "Yeah, I have good moves." I assumed she was with her bf, but I should have followed her and danced with her. Because the last time a woman was walking through the crowd and stopped to tell me a compliment, I assumed she kept on walking because she did not really like me, but actually she liked me a lot and just wanted me to chase her. This is of course different from the women who move away from you because they are trying to avoid you.

Now, this CBT exercise helped me. After I did it, I felt less anxious and went around trying to dance with different girls the next time I was at a nightclub, and actually I found one and a half women to dance with!

The exercise is called Cost-Benefit Analysis

Negative Belief: Women do not want to dance with me

Benefits: I will avoid approaching women to dance and will avoid risking rejection
If women like dancing with me, I can assume they are faking it or think they do not like me and reject them and avoid intimacy and possible
anxiety
I can avoid the anxiety of dancing with women
I can think negatively about myself and wallow in my misery
I can spend more time by myself
I can feel negative feelings and use the energy for expressive dance

Disadvantages: I feel bad about myself
I feel more nervous when approaching women
I am focused on what I am feeling, and do not look for ques about how they are feeling
I show fear and defensiveness which repels people
It turns into a self fulfilling prophecy
I do not look for women to dance with, so I don't get any practice dancing with women
I feel tense and nervous and am extra sensitive to signs of rejection when looking, asking, or dancing with a woman

Revised Belief: I am a worthwhile partner to dance with and many women would like to dance with me, let me go look for a woman
and not worry about what they are thinking or feeling about me.

Benefits: This is more effective for pleasing myself
I am not burdened by what I imagine women's feelings
It is more realistic because I am good looking and a good dancer and women like to dance
This will end up giving joy to the many women who want to dance with an attractive man like me
I will dance with more women
I may find some dates
I can learn from the interactions
I might experience joy
When I find women to dance with, I will feel less desperate
I will not have to worry and wonder, 'what if I approached?"

Disadvantages: I might risk getting rejected more
Some women might get scared and not want to be around me anymore (but if I do not approach them, then what does it matter? I cannot lose what I do not have)
I might be more nervous

This can be approached with the ABCDE exercise from Dr Seligman's book

Adversity: I don't have a dance partner
Belief: If I approach a woman I will offend her, embarass myself, and will be rejected
Consequence: I feel anxious, desperate, and do not approach women to dance with
Disputation: 1) Fortune telling - I cannot predict the future, let me try approaching a woman for dancing and see what happens. 2) In the past this has not always been true. I approached a woman once, she danced with me all night, and then we went on a date. This implies that in the future if I approach a woman, she might dance with me and I might get a date again. 3) Mind reading - I cannot read the woman's mind. She might like me to approach her for dancing and she might enjoy dancing with me 4) Feelings are deceptive, just because I feel embarrassed does not mean that there is any realistic reason to feel embarrassed. 5) I am new at approaching women and asking them to dance, and I am going to be forgiving to myself. The more I talk to women, the better I will get at it. 6) In the past I have not always been rejected. I got picked up by a slightly older woman at a dance, got a dance and a date from a woman I approached, and got invited for a date and a hook up with a good looking slightly older girl. This implies that in the future, sometimes I might be rejected, but at other times I won't. If I keep working at it, I will meet available women who are interested in me. 7) If I believe I can find a dance partner, I will find a dance partner. The first Olympic runner to break the world record, believed he could, even though everyone else in the world believed that nobody can. Henry Ford said that if you believe you cannot, you will not.
Energization: I feel better about myself. I feel calmer and more confident about approaching women and looking for a dance partner. I feel more optimistic and more independent.

I also figured out how to process rejection. The second woman I danced with this is what I did. I saw her dancing alone with a blank face looking away near the tables. I sort of dancing on my own walked up to her, forgot to smile, tried making eye contact, but turned my side to her and gave her a hip bump, the first one was awkward, but I gave her another one right away, and while our hips were touching, I flexed my knees squatting kind of like sitting down and she did that with me. Then we kept dancing next to each other, but she kept refusing to let me touch her hand. We kept dancing like that for like fifteen minutes, she would not physically leave and would sort of come back to me when I stepped away. Anyway, I processed that as rejection and felt a little bad. This is how I untwisted my thoughts:

Adversity: This woman is refusing to dance with me hand in hand.
Belief: She does like me
Consequence: I feel rejected
Disputation: This woman did not say, "Pyuya, I do not like you." She was silent. I cannot read her mind, maybe she liked me, maybe she did not, maybe she was not sure what she feels about me, maybe she had mixed feelings about me. Most women are too self centered and anxious when they are at a night club to care much about the guys in the nightclub one way or the other. It's unlikely that she cares that much about me to strongly dislike me. It is just me projecting my feelings of insecurity onto her without any real evidence.

The things I like about myself is that I work, I care about my family, I decorate my apartment, I care about what happens in the world, I vote, and I do not hit children. These are the things I like about myself. Now, if someone asked this woman, would you appreciate someone who works, cares about their family, decorates his place, etc.. would this woman say she likes these qualities in a man or not? She would probably say that she likes these qualities. Does this silent woman in a night club know all these good things about me? No! She does not know me at all! Is there anyone who knows these good things about me and likes me for having these qualities? Yes! There is one person. And that person is me!!!
No matter what this woman knows about me and thinks or feels about me, I still like myself. I refuse to like myself any less because some strange woman who does not know me does not fall head over heels for me.

Now after having changed my thinking this way, I feel better about myself and I almost don't feel rejected at all. In fact, I feel more confident that I care and love myself, and I am not as desperate to get approval from the woman.

Dr Burns says that lonely people feel rejected because they think that other people do not like me. But if you ask them whether or not they like themselves, it turns out they are very harsh and critical on themselves. Learn to think about yourself in a more caring and loving and realistic way, and you will feel more confident and a lot less rejected!

Also, last week I was at Starbucks sitting at the big table next to a girl on her laptop. I found myself wanting to talk to her, and I noticed that I kept imagining that she would respond in a negative way if I talked to her. So I wrote down this exercise to help me change the way I think:

Situation: woman sitting next to me at Starbucks
Prediction: If I talk to her, she will not smile, she will look wide eyed at me, and not understand what I said, and not reply, just stare at me and back away.
Experiment: Talk to the woman and observe how she reacts in order to test whether my negative prediction was realistic
Result: I asked the woman what she was studying and she smiled back and said she was studying biochemical engineering and had a big paper due. I told her if she drinks more coffee she will get a better grade and she laughed.
Conclusion: My negative prediction was a fantasy. Let me not assume that how I predict women will react is true, but rather test things out and prove to myself whether or not my prediction is true.

Also, another exercise I have been doing is called psyching yourself up. Now, there is a lot wacky literature out there that says that if you think positively you send waves into the universe and change your future.. that is all bull shit. But, there is a similar exercise that is based on Loneliness Research (interviews and therapy sessions with lonely people) and cause-and-effect experiments that has found that positive self talk improves how people feel about themselves and becomes like self fulfilling prophecy, any way, it makes it easier to talk to people and makes you feel and look more attractive. This is how I do it and it helps me. It's from the Intimate Connections book too.

I am getting dressed to go out on a Friday night feeling lousy. I put on my hat and tell myself "this hat looks great on me, it matches my head" I put on my shirt and tell myself "oh this woman is thinking 'his shoulders look sexy in the shirt, i'd love to take it off, this guy is making me hot'" I start singing a rap song in my head imaging that I am the rapper and I am surrounded by admiring women around me. And is I find the most effective: you know how when you think about what women think of you, and often you feel like they do not like something about you and that makes you feel unattractive? Well you've got to create the opposite illusion. You think, "Anna likes me. Anna wants me to approach her. Anna thinks I am hot and gets pleasure out of being around me. Anna feels comfortable around me. Etc.." It works for me and I find that when I do this at home and in the train on my way to a dance, I am a lot happier and am much more successful with women that day, more so than when I feel lousy and don't psych myself up. People do it all the time - sports players psych themselves up before games, and people psych themselves up before job interviews. Now when you are doing positive self talk, it is important to say good things that you already believe about yourself, because if you are 5 ft tall, no matter how much you tell yourself that you are a tall guy, you will not believe it and your mood will not improve. A negative belief like that, you dispute it. For example, you tell yourself, "It is impossible to measure to all of society's standards - nobody is tall, beautiful, successful, rich, etc. enough. Nobody has it all. Me being 5ft tall just means that I will have to work harder at get closer to people initially. Nobody is 100% attractive, and nobody is 100% unattractive. There is a continuum of attractiveness from zero to 100% and I am somewhere in the middle of that continuum. Now if I look at couples, I often see a very attractive woman with a much less attractive man. Or wise and versa. This implies that is realistic for me date a woman who is below average, average, or above average attractive. There are many very attractive men and women who still find it difficult to get closer to people. Attractiveness helps people initially, but past that point it is other skills and qualities that make or break the relationship. Let me work hard at living a nice life and emanate positivity and happiness toward other people and see what happens. Let me flirt with some women and see what happens. Let me find out about a woman as much as I can, and then if I like her, let her know, and let the chips fall where they may."

Update:

took a female friend salsa dancing. she said she had a ton of fun. she dressed up a lot more than she usually does and she would talk in my ear and put her arm around my shoulders at times, but when we danced she kept me away - no grinding or closed body dancing. i only my hands on her waist once and she backed away after awhile
so I did not try again. we are both shy, but it is still a lot of fun. the instructor remember me from last time and called me by my name during the salsa class. i danced with other girls during the lesson even though she expected us to dance together. then we danced together all night and then i walked her home under the rain. she also let me keep her wallet in my backpocket so it would not get stolen. i was at this place before several times and i acted confident with the staff and signed up for the guestlist and told her not to put our coats in the coatcheck but leave them on the chair (ive done that before and it was fine) it saved us a few bucks and it was cool how i took the lead and told her what to do. we left early and she said Pyuya lets got our hands stamped so we can come back to this nightclub and i said no we are not coming back. it was a good decision because it was late anyway.

girls asked me to take her dancing to a night club near her house. got her number, called her right away so she got my number too now, and walked her to the train and gave her a hug.

My friend is in late twenties and he is good looking and had gone on some dates and had a short term girl friend, he says he picked up girls at bars and brought them home. He does not have the best looks though, and his social skills are not strong. So his advice might good because most of the guys who are having trouble dating probably also have poor social skills and not the best looks, and what he learned from the girls he has seen might be relatable to guys like us.

My friend: If women can sense you’re trying too hard, they’ll run away. Girls are like cats. You chase them, they leave. Let them chase youu, and be alooof to the fact they’re hitting on you and that’ll maake them want you more.

Me: you give good advice about women. Yesterday, I went to a dance, and I talked to a girl during a dance and she said I should invite her next time I go to a place I told her about. So I got her number, and we talked as we were getting dressed in the lobby on our way out. I wanted to walk to the train with her, but instead of rushing to go with her and showing that I really want to walk with her, like I usually do, I told her to wait while I get my coat, and then I went for a walk around the dancing hall, looking for people I know, and making her wait not knowing whether I will come back. Then I saw she was talking to some people, she saw me look at her, and I just left the building. Guess what? she ran after me!

My friend: And whatever you’re saying that makes them feel like they’re being hiit on, stop that and make them feel relaxxed by seeing you at ease. Treat them like you’re just interested in what they have to say. Have a material chat with them by focuusing on their intereests (not yours) and listening well. The less you talk and more you listen, you’re not going to be gettting a hitting on vibe. Girls like good listeners.

Totally! I used to ask girls, "Do you want to meet outside of this venue?" "Do you want to get coffee some time?" "I want to dance with you more, do you want to go dancing at some other place?" and they would give a reason why they cannot or give me their email or number and not reply.

Whereas, yesterday, I was using a different approach, I just talked to people, smiled, said how are you and where they live, and one of the girls just naturally said I should invite her next time I go to a place near where she lives because I told her I go there sometimes. It just happened naturally and I was not trying to ask her out or expecting to meet with her.

My friend: Avoid bars.

It's a male fantasy that women go to bars because they are interested in meeting a guy and that women at bars are interested in dating or sex. Yes they are interested in all of these in general, but at bars they have their guard up, they are very defensive, and they are just less available to guys. All the guys I've talked to, have gotten phone numbers from girls at bars and the women do not call them back or it is a fake number. I've met some women at bars and even though at the bar they seemed to like me, after I called them or met them in real life they were not interested anymore. And at bars there are usually several single guys for every single woman, so there is a lot of competition.

My friend: And try to find a girl who will beffriend you first; she’ll introduce you to a friend of hers and wannna play matchmaker. Girls are easier to talk to when you get use to talking to some of them as a friend instead of a datiing prospect.

That's what I've been doing - trying to find more female friends to hang out with.


If you are more quiet instead of hittting on them, they’ll be wondering why you’re not hitting on them, view you as mysterious, they’ll wonder what is going on, and then they’ll focus on trying to chase you.

I kept trying to talk to this one girl I see every month for the past few months. She acted aloof and kiind of brushed me off. Well yesterday, I talked to other girls and totally ignored her, and she all of sudden started looking at my face more intently, smiled, and triied to talk to me and catch my attention. I heard thaat women are always testing you.

Girls love the chaase. They don’t want to be chased; that makes them lose respect. Act like you’re mildly annnoyed with girls who onnly are out to date you.

I disagree with that. There is nothing wrong with girls who only want to date you. It's not good to chase a girl too much, I think, although I think without putting initiative and smiling and saying hello to girls, I think I would not be talking to girls at all, and would just be on my own the whole time. It is also good to talk to other people, and make male friends.

Dancing.

Now that I am dancing very well solo and can partner dance with women and have taken some dance classes, women are more attracted to me. I posted dancing pictures on a dating site and I got messaged by a chubby girl saying she finally found a guy who can dance! Also when I dance with women sometimes I tease them and I wonder they might not want to be friendly with me anymore because I offended them (i said i dont want to dance with you go away and rolled my eyes like i cannot stand dancing with her, she is a professional dancer btw and she gave me a hug at the end as if she likes me, she never done that before) they seem to like me more

this is how i overcame my fear of dancing. I did the Triple Column Technique from Dr. David Burns to overcome the negative thoughts and anxiety while I am dancing. Like thinking people are judging me or that I am embarassing myself. I went to nightclubs and danced there solo. i went to salsa, swing, and ballroom classes and then went to the social dancing to learn partner dancing. i learned to feel the music. i know guys who took dancing classes for years and still cannot solo or with a woman. this is because they think they need to learn moves to dance. this is not true. if you learn moves, but you do not feel the music and do not have rythm, musicality, ignore mood of the music, do not interpret the music with your moves, and do not learn about lead/follow, points of connection, and frame when dancing with a partner, no matter how many moves you learn, you will be out of sync with the music and out of sync with your partner. but if you have rythm and all these elements of dancing, you can quickly pick up any dance or just improvise with a woman. most women like just swaying side to side and making her do turns and that is enough even for whole night of dancing if you have rythm and feel the music and make the partner feel like she is attractive and like she looks good.

also it is ok to flirt with women and they usually flirt back at social dancing. so it is a good way of getting experience interacting with women and lowering your anxiety when you are around women. you can experiment by giving them compliments , teasing them, or asking them about themselves or telling them about yourself, or just talking, and paying attention to their body language and facial expressions while you dance.

one thing though, is i have tried asking women out on the social dances or in dance classes and i find women refuse or do not call back if i do not know them well and ask them out of the blue. i find it only works if we already talking and feel comfortable around each other and it happens naturally, like in the above post.
i dont know if its better to take the risk and ask women out or wait for the right moment, i just know that asking women directly only worked once with a fat chick and did not work with anyone else. i asked one fat chick if she wanted to be friends outside of the dance and she said yes sure and then ran away and did not come back the next week! and we were already friendly and had a lot in common. so i think when you ask directly people feel anxious and their first reaction is to avoid you. but if you are already having a conversation and feel comfortable with each other and.. i dont know what else. i have not figured it out yet. on one hand i do not want this to be self limiting belief and i want to think positively to think that women liek me and want me to ask them out and to think 'let me ask them out and see what happens' - usually they reply NOT like I expect them, but better. but at the same time i asked girls out and got no response from the girls. so go figure. no actually i just realized it - it's better to try and EXPERIMENT with different methods. ask some girls out directly and see what happens. have a conversation and just talk and see what happens - maybe a date will happen naturally with some girl.

Dress up!
There is this nerdy guy who comes dressed in a lousy t shirt to the dances and stands around talking quietly, but he is mostly alone. This time he dressed up a bit - and what a difference. he looks much better.

Try Flirting Techniques!
I was dancing with my friend who has a bf, moving past the above mentioned guy, and I said Joe, look at the pretty girl I am dancing with!

Be open and in the moment!
I asked the above mentioned girl why our conversation feels awkward and told her that I feel jealous of her having a bf. It seemed to improve our relationship, I felt more at ease and more closer to her.

Don't email or facebook people to try to make friends!
I messaged people I have met, but not friends, to hang out or just asking how they are and I have not become friends with any of them, except maybe one or two. Many did not reply, or just replied with one line to my one paragraph message. Lesson is if you message people you do not really know, about something they do not expect, you better be an excellent communicator through writing, otherwise they will not know where you are coming from, will read what you wrote totally not like you meant it, will misinterpret you.

Be part of groups/cliques and say encounter many different women!
In my area, people are in groups - there are groups of people who take a dancing class at one studio, people who go to one Open Mic at one bar, people who run together in one running group, people who go to the same meetup group many times in a row, etc. If you become a regular at a group and say hi and smile to many people including women, then you are bound to get closer to people and meet single women that way. You feel more social, and you are less desperate for a girl. This makes you happier and more attractive.

So the Dr Burns said to make close male friends and then recommend each other to other women and them to set your friend up on a date with one of their friends. well a few months ago a female friend of mine invited me to her friends' house. that friend was a good looking girl (although kinda snobby and boring and she drinks) and she used to go dancing in college, but has not since she graduated and found a job. i emailed my friend asking if that girl is single and saying that i have a male friend who is interested in taking her out for a dance night. i said ask her and let me know what she says. that girl said yes she will go out with my friend but only if me and my female friend are there too. it was an experiment and i am glad it worked. only problem is i lied about the male friend. i dont have anyone who wants to go out with her. i asked two guys, but they are not interested probably because they are shy and they are not confident enough to go on a blind date and they are not my close friend anyway - i barely know them. it is a good thing the girl made me and the female being present a condition because that gives me a reason to procrastinate on this. i emailed her back saying thank you for replying to me so soon, i will let you know. now i just got to find a male friend who is not a shy nerd and who will take her out. hopefully someone who will ask around to set me up with his female friends. It's surprisingly hard to find a guy who is interested in taking a girl he does not know out dancing! Maybe if I let people know that I want them to set me up with a girl and will take her out dancing, and feel confident about it, maybe people will set me up? Because if I do not ask, they will just assume that I am not interested and you cannot set up a guy who is not interested with a girl, because the girl wants the guy to be interested in her. Wow, I am learning so much through this!

So I broke my new year's resolution to not go on dating sites anymore to try a different type of profile - one that sounds positive and comes on strong. It's getting views from female members, but after spending many hours on it, messaging back and forth with maybe 20 girls - I have a cancelled date with a fat bisexual college girl and her male friend who is in a wheelchair (and she is his personal aide?), she was nice though and left me a message an hour before we were supposed to meet that something came up. It was not a big deal, I told her I was going to a bar by myself and she should come a long if she wants and meet me there and that I would call her at 10pm. And then I have a foreign nanny living here in the US who wanted to go dancing, but says it will have to be in two weeks or more because she lives half an hour away and I won't pick her up in my car. Also, I am annoyed when girls reply "lol" or "haha " - why should I keep talking to them and writing to them if they do not say anything back? Why should I be the one always writing more to them, then they write to me? I am just going to say screw it, and not waste any more time on the misery called online dating.

I was a at a bar tonight dancing to a live band by myself. A dolled up chick in her late twenties ran up to me and started next to me - we did a little dance off here and back, no touching, then she said she had to go pee and ran away and did not come back. I figured she was leaving and that was a fake excuse (negative thinking on my part though), maybe she wanted me to chase her down and hit on her (positive thinking), but I saw her around three sports fan type of guys, her acting like she is super interested in one guy and flirting with him, then probably running away, and doing that to another guy - like a social butterfly type of thing. Also I saw girls talking to each other, lots of them, with their backs to the crowd, I figured why bother them if they look like they are scared/anxious and not friendly and open to conversation? I mean I should be thinking that they want me to approach them and talk to them and that they would feel comfortable if I do - all the positive thinking stuff, but the fear of rejection kept holding me back. Bars are an empty well when it comes to relationships with women and I keep going back there and feeling desperate, but also feeling like yes I am going out and entertaining myself and taking myself out on dates, it is fun going to live bands and dancing at bars, but maybe I should try going out and hanging out with the several female friends that I have made this year. I noticed that guys who are dating are often surrounded by a circle of female friends.

I am also thinking whether or not to call that girl I naturally number closed without aiming to number close her at a social dance if she will go to that night club with me that is near her house. I keep imagining that she will reject me, it is my gut feeling, I hate it, I should do the written exercises to change my thinking to think that she wants me to call her, wants me to ask her, and etc. 'let me call her and see what happens. let me go on a date with her and see what happens.'

Called up that girl on Saturday at 8pm asked what she was up to. She said she was not doing anything. I said do you wanna go out? she said yes. I said lets go to to that night club near your house at 11pm. She said great. And I met her there and gave her a hug when I saw her. There were girls on the dance floor already and I asked them to watch our stuff and said we will watch theirs so it does not get stolen. I think saw desire in the girls' eyes because they saw me with a girl and I was being cold to them, like they wanted my attention (because they talked to me when it was not necessary). Then we went up to the dance floor and she threw herself at me - I was overwhelmed and had to fend her off a bit. She just wanted to grind against me all the time. We danced and grinded and time flew by fast. It's different being on the dance floor with a girl you brought with you - you don't feel desperate and you don't notice people around you like if you were on the dance floor sarging for a girl. I grabbed her boob while were dancing and she closed her eyes and stood there. I worried maybe I was taking advantage of her because this is second time I met her, but she seemed to enjoy it. Also, when we grinded she put my hand on her stomach, and she grinded her pussy on my thigh which from previous experience dancing with the girl I picked up at a nightclub might mean she is horny and wants to fuck. Then we sat downstairs at a bar, and cuddled and I kissed and licked her neck and rubbed my face and my nose against her face and her neck and gave her a back rub. She said she enjoyed the back rub so much and did not want to go. I joked that her neck is so salty and made a face. She put her leg on mine and I caressed her thigh. She was not interested in talking, although I got her to talk more and more. She said she partied and I assume she had a lot of sex in college. I am afraid of stds, especially from a girl who is really horny and probably had sex with many guys, so I told her I won't kiss her yet or take her home because I am a very shy person and I want to trust her and understand her before I kissed her. And she said there is a middle ground between kissing her neck and kissing her on the mouth which is her cheeck. I also said that if she is thinking or feeling anything she can just tell me although she does not have to, but if she wants to, she should and I will just listen. I also told her I was worried that the next we saw each other at the weekly dance we go to that it might be awkward and she said it will be hard for it to be awkward because you dance with different people at the dance. She also said she broke up with her bf two months ago and she is looking for friends with benefits relationship with me and to take things slowly if something does develop. I said I am looking for friends with benefits too and I want to take things slowly. When I walked her half way home she said she wants me to take her salsa dancing and I said I might. I gave her a hug and a kiss on the cheeck, but she did not give me a kiss on the cheeck (arrggh, me cherry picking the negatives again). This girls looks a little crazy in that she travelled to a bunch of third world countries and was interested in learning ten different languages. But I wont reject this girl just because she comes off a little crazy, as long as she is not hostile towards me and as long as I can assert myself and not let her boss me around or manipulate me. Also, she did not get dolled up for going out to the night club, which would make sense since she just wanted to hook up and she is the nerdy type. This might be helpful to anyone who is reading this - because I do not know this girl yet and she acting a little crazy, I decided to cuddle with her in a public college bar and not anywhere private. I could have taken her outside and sat with her on a bench at night, but, if she turned out to be really crazy and hostile and then turned around and said that I sexually assaulted her or raped her, then the fact that we were alone somewhere would act as evidence and in the USA if a girl says you raped her on a bench at night, if the judge hears that you actually were alone with her on a bench at night, he will put you in jail. Whereas, if we are always in public, it is much harder for her to accuse me of anything. This might sound super defensive and unreasonable on my part, but being inexperienced with women, and hearing stories from guys whose girlfriends called the cops and made self inflicted bruises and lied to the police that they got beat up just because they felt hostile towards their bf, or the women who got emotionally hurt in the past by their bf and in their mind you remind them of their bf whom they still hate and they want to punish you for reminding them of their bf.. in the USA if you are accused by a woman of assault, the police arrest you, the judge puts you in jail without bail because you are danger to society, and then you go to jail even if it is just the woman's word against yours. The police here don't think to put guilty people in jail, they just try to figure out to put anyone accused/arrested in jail. They often ignore all the evidence of innocent, and exaggerate and cherry pick the evidence of guilt. So the fact that you were alone in a car, in an apartment, or on the street at night with a girl, is enough evidence to be sentenced for rape if the girl happens to accuse you.

Also, Monday, I called up that girl from Brazil who does not speak any English that I met at a salsa dance. I called her up three days after she gave me her number expecting a voice mail and she picked up the phone right away. I asked her how she was and if she was busy this week and said I am going to a dance on Thursday and will you go with me? She said sure.

Sunday I called the shy girl who dresses nerdy most of the time who I've known for a year now. This is the girl that I took salsa dancing a few weeks ago and paid for her ticket. It was a date, but we just danced, she would not let me keep my hands on her waist or do any body contact other than a hug and some closeness while talking. I facebooked her on Friday asking if she wanted to go salsa dancing on Saturday and she took 24 hours to reply even though she is on fb all the time, so I replied saying I did not hear from her and just made other plans and that she should reply sooner if she wants to reserve me. She said sure she will go dancing with me and asked me if I wanted to see a movie afterwards. So I turned that down, but asked if she wanted to see a movie on Sunday the next day. Then I called her the next day and she said sure. So we saw the movie. I paid for her ticket and she said 'oh thanks'. I put my arma round her and played with her shoulder and elbow a little and she did not say no and did not withdraw, but she did not reciprocate either. I think is she is just shy and although I think that she is attracted to me, maybe she is not?

I am discovering that paying for a girl feels nice. It turns hanging out into a date and it feels like I am courting the girl. Girls enjoy it. But I do not want to spend much money on the girls, so I won't take them to anything expensive and I think I won't let them tell me what and when to pay for them.

Also, I have not been working or studying and my apartment has become messy and I do not cook for myself. It has been like this for weeks. I would get a huge energy boost by doing things I've been procrastinating on. I really need to go back to Section 1 of Dr Burns's book where it says to stop neglecting yourself and become more productive and creative in life.

The group therapy is going better now too. I am more direct in the group with women. I tell the women in the group I want to sit together with them and that I am attracted to them and ask them out on a date. It is all pretend asking, but it is almost the same as in real life. I am becoming more interested in listening to people, and I listen more intently and understand what people are saying better.

I went over the first few pages..this in my first post here and Ive not been around the 'community' in a long time but a few things I noted. Great job on getting out...one thing I remember from long ago was Major Mark and his saying 'To say something makes it real, to describe it brings it to life' so in your conversations, steer to topics covering connection, emotion, excitement etc and start to describe it. So Debbie..I really enjoy the dancing, its like a part of me(pause) way down deep inside (pause) you really feel that (light touch) music and hear that pulse move you to places you never thought about...I dont know, maybe the dancing and music is not even about thought...its about movement and emotion and excitement yada yada"

So really fast you've thrown in a minor embed (part of me way inside you) and feel that (touch) causes a slight internal ambiguity and begun to have her think of movement and excitement. Also try to speak using the three main representational systems, what they hear/tell themselves, what things feel like and what they see/picture in their heads. Listen to responses, are they speaking visually? "Yeah I can see how that works" or kinesthetically "I feel that it may be the case'. You re basically a biofeedback mechanism for her internal reality.
So take your own experiences, use them to launch your conversations, but make sure you understand what their primary representational systems are and use those, use the words they use and lean on.

Openers, never ask a question, walk up and tell a quick story get a reaction and fly by the seat of your pants but important...listen to reactions to stories, get key words they use and rep systems and reflect back and again, Join their internal reality. Speak slow during those times and real fast...snap out of it to normal conversation for a few seconds and then go back into another story/thread.
'To say something makes it real, to describe it brings it to life'
ok ill shut up im rambling

Hey, Bela, do you get out? I used to be scared of going into bars, and now I can go into a bar before they start charging cover, and have the balls to stand in the middle of the room alone and not even buy anything! I used to feel uncomfortable and grab a drink just to fit in, now I still feel pressure to buy stuff, but I have the ego strength to not buy anything, even though I feel uncomfortable. And now I feel more comfortable going out, but I realize that while going to bars (and not using alcohol as a crutch to relieve anxiety) reduces social anxiety and improves confidence in social situations, there are not many men or women to talk to and the women there are single, but mostly not available (because they feel anxious, threatened by guys hitting on them, or don't go out with the purpose of meeting people). You get a number - the girl does not call you back, or you get one date and then the girl loses interest or she is not the type you would want to date. So going to bars is like going back to an empty well, but there are other places to go out - like social dancing, meetups, running groups, etc.

I tell women when I enjoy dancing with them, but describing deep emotions to me seems like woman-pleasing - trying to woe the woman with your deep emotions and love for her because I feel desperate for her approval and feel desperate for her to feel deep emotions for her. This might arise from an assumption that for me to have a relationship with a woman she expects me to feel like " a part of me(pause) way down deep inside (pause) you really feel that (light touch) music and hear that pulse move you to places you never thought about...I dont know, maybe the dancing and music is not even about thought...its about movement and emotion and excitement yada yada"" To me it seems fake, but I never tried it, so it's maybe something to experiment with. I don't think if I talked like that, it would be flirting, it might confuse the woman because if you are serious about feeling deep emotions she will pick up that it is fake, something about you will give it away and it won't seem realistic that you feel that while dancing with her especially if you have not been dating for a long time.

"So really fast you've thrown in a minor embed (part of me way inside you) and feel that (touch) causes a slight internal ambiguity and begun to have her think of movement and excitement. "

That sounds like NLP, and it sounds like maybe you are trying to manipulate the woman into feeling excited so that she will like you? I have met several people who do NLP and they do not have close relationships with women and come off as strange. I think trying to manipulate the woman and thinking of yourself as a biofeedback mecahnism is a way of avoiding a relationship with the woman. And you might be making the assumption that you are not worthwhile and not lovable, so you have to say things you do not really mean (and pretend to be someone else to earn the woman's affection) Dr Burns says you can say things you do not really mean like fake compliments because sometimes you have to play the game to get closer to people, but realize that is just initial flirting, then it is just more fun to be yourself and open about your thoughts and feelings, because it is more fun to have a relationship with a woman, not hide your real thoughts/feelings and feed her stuff you don't believe. That is passive aggressive, and gives you power because you know that you are lying but the woman thinks you are being honest, and you might feel a need for that power because you are afraid of an intimate relationship with another person.

So the girl I met at a social dance and took to a night club last Saturday and then we cuddled and I kissed her neck and cheeck (not on the lips because I am afraid she might have stds cause she seems hypersexual), I did not call her all week and I called her Friday evening and left her a message asking if she wanted to go out tonight. She called me back two hours later saying she was exhausted and sleeping all evening but hopes I have fun. At first I thought she sounded mad at me, but then I listened again, and it seemed she sounded humorous. I don't think I should assume she is rejecting (that is my negative thinking), let me call her again some time and see if she wants to go out again and when.

I called the girl I number closed at a social dance the second time. I did not say, "when would be a good to go out with you?" I said "Do you want to go out TONIGHT (and not any other time)?" First time she said she is picking up her sister from school and second time she said she already went to a restaurant with a guy and is drunk. I said "i might call you on Thursday then" and she said "oh why are you saying "you MIGHT?"" implying i she wants me to call her again. I feel insecure and keep being afraid of getting the run around from this girl, so I am tempted to keep the power on my side by not giving her the choice to schedule the date but saying, "hey i am going out tonight, do you want to come along?" instead of "I want to go out with you some time, when is a good time for you?" because then she would have more time to think about it and might cancel and have more power and also I want to seem like i dont need her and and want her to think like i might not call her again and she might lose me if she does not chase me.

last night i was at a bar with a cover band on the stage, i was the best male dancer there but was alone and dancing by myself, even the singer on the stage said "i like how this guy dances" he was talking about me and a slightly chubby girl who is a 3 or a 4 came up to me and danced with me but i felt afraid of talking to girls, tried to dance with girls and tried to talk but felt very insecure. i saw the girl who offered me her number (she is a punk girl and is a 3) there again, she kept coming up to guys and trying to dance with them, she is the one who called me back once saying she is busy that week and never replied again.

I've seen that girl I met at a dance twice. We had a first date at a nightclub and she threw herself at me. She said her college was crazy with alcohol and sex. She broke up with her bf two months ago so I'm wondering if she's on the rebound. I've been afraid of kissing her on the lips, even though the risks of getting stds is low (it's just mono and herpes cold sores), but due to my inexperience with kissing women and dating, I am not ready and not sure I want to kiss her on the lips. What if I get cold sores afterwards? What if she suced a 100 dicks in college? Seriously. It's just my crazy fears. So first time we did some dirty dancing at the night club (I grabbed her boob, she had her eyes closed, but then I though, maybe she did not enjoy being grabbed? I'm thinking when I see her next I will just ask if she wants me to touch her breasts, rather than assuming that if she does not say NO, she means YES) So then we went to a lounge and cuddled and I kissed her cheeck and neck and gave her a back rub. The next time we met was pretty much the same thing, but without the kissing because I had the flu and did not want to make her sick. I told her I had the flu, but she said she was OK with the risk and wanted to see me anyway.

Also, this girls I've been flirty on the dance floor and who smiles at me a lot when we dance, she seems to like me, only problem is she is 6 feet 4 inches tall, practically a giant, and she is a few years older than I am I think. I would enjoy dancing with her very close and I would want to take her out on a date, but I am afraid of what might happen afterward. Will she expect me to like her and date her afterward? Will it be awkward to see her at the same monthly dance? Will she tell other girls at the dance and will I get known as the guy who asks fellow dancers out (it's kind of a no-no in social dancing).

Although, using my CBT, I could think differently - what is so bad about being known as a guy who dates women? a guy who women WANT to go on a date with? maybe the more women I date, even if it causes drama, maybe other women will see that I am datable and want to date me too.

on a personal note, i have been putting off studying due to anxiety when i open a textbook.