I was getting action when I had a BMI of 32 and no facial hair. Looks don't matter.

A lot of it is down to picking your targets well. If you go for average girls confidently you can laid, great looks or not, 'game' or not.

Just to re-iterate this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PAeraGYKBE

Yeah. Keep spouting.

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I've got 99 problems but...

This is mostly untrue. I'm not going to go so far as to say looks are completely irrelevant (some PU products actually say that) but good good skills with game can trump shortcomings in the looks dept. I know because I myself have been told this by girls, about MY looks vs. game. They've said:

"I just don't understand what it was about you. You're so unlike the guys I ever go for; most of the guys I date are really tall and have like 12 pack abs and a chiseled jaw. I know we can't affect that because of our genetics so I just overlooked all that because you seemed cool and I don't know why."

"I still don't know why I did this. You're not even my type."

The proof's in the pudding I guess.

Luda got it spot on,the point I was trying to make..others are still lecturing me on how personality is important..obviously they didnt even read my post properly..I am saying it again..personality based attraction works 100% but it takes weeks or even months..

You can have the most amazing personality in the world, but if u think u can go to a club and display it for 1 hour and believe girls will drool over u, u are just plain delusional..Such 'speed seduction' only works for hot guys..if u have a good personality, build a social circle, get to know girls and slowly u will get them..

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One Smile, One joke, One tease, One touch & She's Mine..

So you dont practice then? you just lay in wait until fate has that a hot girl enter your social circle and then you practice, but maybe it goes wrong and now you must wait months again to practice again.

Dont get me wrong if it works for you, nice. Personally i hate handing control of this huge aspect of my life to fate.

What one CAN do, in my opinion is lower one standars for practice sake. You go for the 6, 7, 8 and practice in night clubs. You can do that while you hope for faith to give you that 9/10 in your social circle.

Im currently practicing every week in nightclubs, sometimes with 6, 7 or 8 and sometime even 5s or course i only go for one night lays (well the 5 not even that).

I don't agree either. I do see that a portion depends on looks, especially at the very beginning. But as soon as you start speaking the percentage goes down. If I had to give percentages I would say initially looks are %30 and the other %70 is personality but after the first talk I think it becomes like %15 looks and %85 personality.

You guys have lost the point of the topic. I know the title of the topic is basically looks vs personality but if you read chick magneto's post properly, you will realise that the point he's trying to make is that looks are more important for fast hookups because there is no such thing as personality based attraction in the begining of an interaction with a women. Most the people who post here are using extreme cases to prove their point. No doubt just being all looks with absolutly no game whatsoever wont get you the quality of girls you should be pulling but being all game and no looks wont make you start pulling 10s unless they in your social circle and they get to know you better. I use to think that game mattered most until i started working out and focusing on my looks. Before i use to pull 5s,6s and 7s but now i pull 7s, 8s and i've dated a 9. No doubt my personality played a part especially in dating the 9 but for the hookups its mostly my looks. I've even had situations where i hooked up with girl spitting what is known as "interview-mode" but i stil got the hookup. Mostly because of my looks. Looks are the secret to skyrocketing your success with women FACT. I watch my ugly friends plow through bitch shields and stuff just to get the girl talking to them meanwhile i use my looks to attract girls and when i approach its on from the get go. The best advice i ever got was from Aaron Sleazy when he said "looks are your best investment period!!!"

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Girls love me for one reason... I live by the code of G.M.C. (Gym, Mack, Chill)

While i have met guys who are not traditionally good looking who hook up with pretty good looking girls -- I must admit that I've given this some thought. I myself have gotten pretty lucky over the years despite not being 6 feet tall and not "standing out". In fact these days I often feel at a "disadvantage".

I will say though that I have never been as consistent with girls as a "player" who seems to just draw them in with ease.

Sometimes I think about how if you don't have the traditional stuff -- that it is better to NOT try to act like a player and instead just be a down to earth humble cool guy who accepts himself for who he is without holding himself back. I think guys like us need to come at girls in a more realistic authentic way. I feel like this can sometimes make up for some of our shortcomings -- but to try to pretend that our shit don't stink I think can be a problem -- because girls say to themselves if they wanted a guy who acts like that they will get with the 6'4 rich good looking guy.

Okay guys, so it looks like the verdict is in on looks. Yes they matter (a whole lot) and probably more so than game or great social skills.

Regarding the point about "there is no personality short-term game, because it takes too long", there's another dimension to that as well: even if you have game but not looks, and are hoping to date/hookup with a girl, your game will likely be irrelevant from the start because you won't even get up to bat.

You won't be given the opportunity to "put your best foot forward" and "be your best self" because it's stacked against you from the get-go.

Why do you think even the most highly acclaimed pickup bootcamps commonly have everyone in the class end a night with each guy having made 500 approaches & got. 500 rejections, without having gotten so much as a phone number?

Mack Wild's point is totally valid about the ugly guy acting like his shot doesn't stink.

This is supported in the book, The Game, where Lisa Shitty-Guitarist Leveredge told Neil Strauss, "Of course I didn't call you back, I thought, 'I can get any guy I want and THIS guy's being too-cool-for-school?"

You'll just look like an ugly guy who's also a dumbass, out of touch with reality. Girls don't think that's "hot"! They'll laugh you out of the venue! (seen it)

Best advice: Do everything you can to make the strongest showing you can in the looks department, then hit the field!

Is not a bad point without it issues:

1) Better look (physically) takes time so that mean one should live in seclusion for at least 5-6 months. Maybe you are right, mayber one should live in seclusion until they get a better look (if possible. If you are short, you are short, if you have a bad face, you have it, not much can be done then). But one should still try it and try it because you have to do something in the meantime. Nightclubs are the best training ground, lots of woman in one place. Maybe it is like they say that only when she knows you, you have a chance but one need practice that you cant get efficently anywhere else.

2) about the "ugly guy acting like his shot doesn't stink" is complicated. My teacher had that act going for him. He was fat, looked italian (not in the good sense), fabio hair but with a huge spot of baldness in the top and he had 30 and looked like 45+ but he got girls like you wouldnt believe he had a girlfriend for everyday of the week and they were 19 to 20+ HB 7 to 9. But i have also seen that act getting the results you say they get in people with good looks and bad.
I think is more of calibration thing than anything else.
The fine line between been someone who out of touch with reality and been someone interesting.

By no means do I think that we should sit on the sidelines until we jack up in the gym or get a shot of botox. I also think that looks really come down to the girl in question and what she "goes for".

Gun probably had the best theory when it came to looks and it is simply that the less good looking you are, the more eventual no's it takes to get to a yes. If you have the skin for it then your good. What's more if you can just accept your limitations and have a great attitude when you go out -- these issues have a way of fading away.

All that being said -- we have to be realistic. I am. I'm not going for celebrities or models -- just girls next door who are in relatively good shape. I'm hooked up with 7's most of my life and as long as she is good in bed and is fun to be around I'm happy to be spending time with her. It's not to say I have not been with a girl that my friends feel is a 8 or 9 but I don't require that.

In the end though if your teeth are yellow, you don't smell good, you don't wear clothes that fit well and make you look good, your shoe's are old, ect -- don't expect to always get a good reaction if you try to come off as if your the prize. You don't become the prize by pretending to be the prize.

You only come off as the prize if you take actions that make you the prize in the woman's eyes. For guys that may be lacking in the looks department they do that by being down to earth and fun to be around. That's not to say you can't tease or throw a neg here and there -- in fact it's almost MORE important for a guy with less than stellar looks to do those things.

In the end though I think guys like us stand out by being "different" then the arrogant players. We give the girls an interesting alternative. You'd be surprised how many woman will sacrifice a few points in the looks department if she feels like she has a chance to win you over and you make her feel good.

I agree with what you say but one point it always gets me the wrong way. Why dont aim higher? (im not talking about you, if you want 7s go for it) for example i decided that i wont settle for any woman who is not at least a 8 or 9 as a LTR, lower get in the snl or one night things or even date her for a short time. And as you say one has to make the propper changes to oneself to get there, getting in shape, dressing better, not changing my teeth coloration (because it hurts the teeths) but in my case im short and thats not gonna ever go away and i have meet people who have a bad face, or just plain ugly and they still try it. Wich is really more of an hyndrance? The natural flaws (those that our genetic lottery has given us) or the manmade flaws? (lack or hygiene, bad clothes, bad shape, etc)

Maybe like you say im being unrealistic but its not worse to settle for less than what one wants? I personally believe that no matter what your genetic lottery is you have a chance with the 9s and 10s

Well like I said i think that different women have different taste. There are hot blond Swedish model looking girls that are attracted to bald men with a beer belly out there.

i myself never understood the fascination with finding a "10" however, unless one is talking about the perfect match "for them". If one is talking about THEIR 10 then I can understand the logic -- but if one is talking about pure looks than I don't understand the fascination.

To me there is very little difference between an 8 and a 10. The ten might have a perfect tan, perfect teeth, a perfect hip ratio, be a little bit taller -- but most 7's and 8's can do themselves up and raise themselves a point or two anyways. A horny 7 in sexy panties looking at me with lust as she lies on my bed topless is way more valuable to me. If she is also down to earth that is way more attractive to me than a 9 who is a pre-madonna and thinks you should worship the ground she walks on because she might have sex with you (or is having sex with you).

I will go up and talk to that 7 who I think is cute and end up with a couple rather than ONLY talking to 10's and striking out all of the time while I jerk off to porn.

Sure I may be able to succeed in getting my 10 but how much happier am I going to be with my 10 then i would be with my 8? Why if I see a girl who I am attracted to should I not go and talk to her because she isn't as hot as a 9? Just seems silly to me. I don't get it. To me any girl who takes care of herself, dresses well, has nice eyes, and is in good shape is fine. Especially if she is a cool girl. I've even gotten with thick girls who I think are pretty.

As for the height and face stuff of which we have little control -- there is obviously no reason to worry about that. You can't fix it. Getting in shape helps the face and there are things you can do for skin tone and wrinkles -- but if you got a big nose and your 5'6 it certainly isn't going to help you to worry about it. You have to accept who you are and go with it. Don't let it hold you back. Certainly don't let yourself have bad breath on top of it.

I will totally second that confusion about some guys' obsession with finding the "perfect 10" or "only dating 9's".

See, this is why the community has such a bad rap, and why we're called "misogynists"! The preferences Mack Wild expressed are what I think most guys are looking for, and why they get involved in the community in the first place: a decent looking girl who's fun to be around, takes care of herself, and can do herself up to he as pretty as needed.

I found myself dumbfounded when I sat at an AFC Adam bootcamp and Adam said, "See, because of my skills and how good I was able to get at game, I was able to get a girl of the quality like Amanda (with Amanda sitting right there in the room). Without game, the best I probably could've hoped for would've been some...petite, blonde girl, who.... I don't know, likes sci-fi movies."

I couldn't believe it! Do you know how smoking hot some petite girls can be?!! I bet you there're a lot of petite blonde girls in clubs that wouldn't give a lot of guys the time of day. A girl liking sci-fi movies being a bad thing??!! I don't know, generally I thought of that as being pretty desirable by guys.

I just didn't get it. Chasing someone else's superficial standards of what a hot girl is supposed to be, just for its own sake sounds crazy. I'm not saying drop the sites (if it could even be called dropping) to the point where YOU feel like you're compromising and losing your own self-respect, but jeez!

Initial attraction is based on build, body language, voice tonality, and various other physical traits. You have to have the game to back it up though once you are in an interaction. I would know, I've changed alot in the past year and my observations back it up thoroughly.

i was more talking about people who limit themselves not by choice but by "what they can get". I mean if one chooses to be with a 7s thats ok but for me, choosing 7s or 6s or whatever because if what one can get and not what one really wants, is wrong. I didnt mean only speak to 9s or 10s, i of course approach and game 7s or 6 but never for a LTR, but that just a personal goal of mine