Please expand.

I and many others would disagree, in many cases I think a good character is a great thing to have in the dating game.

² Which results in a lack of personality. Which is a big problem for many men. Create your own fantasy regaring your presentation to people.

One of the basic but powerful rules when it comes to the pick up game is; "Nice guys finish last". At least in the Attraction Phase. Women get hit on so many times over the course of their lives that they get used to it and start seeing patterns. Day in and day out it's always the same guy hitting on them; the nice guy. "Hi. How are you? You come here often? Can I buy you a drink? What's your name?" Women reject the nice guy so many times they don't even notice it. They won't even remember it happened that same night. Every poor AFC is more similar to the last. What women are looking for is that a**hole. The guy that teases them, but playfully, they love it! They'll chase that guy down a cliff if they have to.

I think it's at best irrelevant and at worst maladaptive. I don't have time to debate this subject. I do think it's certainly better from a moral standpoint to approach things from a position of good character...

Don't agree with what Deangelo says about "Perfect 10s" seeking out guys who are extremely together and all that crap.

_________________
When in Doubt, Freeze Her Out.

This is the place to discuss it.

For the time I've spent here, the guys who've sucked have all generally been ass-holes and the guys that progressed and got laid were good people. Ever listened to AFC Adam talk to someone? You know that "world famous PUA?"

He had a webinar here a while back which I listened into and I was blown away by how incredibly polite, courteous and friendly he was to everyone there. This is similarly true of 95% of the guys on this forum who are getting places.


The success stories on these forums are frequently about friendly, clean and well meaning guys. The stories of guys with chronic depression getting dumped and rejected by girls and their peers frequently feature this sites resident assholes.

And then they get successful with what, womanizing?

Just saying, PUA is sort of prickish behavior almost by definition. Also you're citing a sampling of people who aren't successful from the getgo-- their natural behavior is maladaptive and they need to learn new strategies for getting and keeping mates.

Once again, I think this subject deserves discussion (actually I find it fascinating) but I don't have the time to devote-- if you are interested in discussions of the subject based on evolutionary biology, check out three books:

* The Red Queen
* The Selfish Gene
* The Extended Phenotype

All three of these books present evidence that supports both of our positions-- you could loosely call the two strategies roguishness and altruism. Gotta go now!

_________________
When in Doubt, Freeze Her Out.

PUA is seducing women, not certain what exactly in that is "prickish" but ever met someone who is good with women naturally?

People like them, they're considerate of others, aware of thier surroundings nice to be with. Good people in my book.

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Dickheads are dickheads and most people worth your time leave dickheads to be dickheads on thier own or with other dickheads.

Hell those books you've mentioned all give a plethora of reasons NOT to be a dickhead!

Every day in the mirror. You and I appear to be talking across each other.

Regardless, I disagree with you. I feel that natural nice behavior is maladaptive, at least in the current context. What evolved for life in small tribal situations is not necessarily well adapted for the modern urban environment.
You're a very fast reader. What you think is obviously up to you-- you seem highly invested in your opinion on this subject.

_________________
When in Doubt, Freeze Her Out.

You think you're the only one here familiar with socio-biology? The selfish gene was published in 1976 for christ sake, everyone has seen this 100x before!
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True the moral constructs we have today are frameworks created by a much smaller population in very different circumstances and certain moral behaviours don't have immiediate rewards. (Charity for instance)

BUT.

Walk up to a girl and say "Hi" with a smile on your face and tell her one good thing that you've noticed about her.

Watch the response.

Try walking up to a girl infront of the whole bar tell her how ugly she looks and ask her who she thinks she's kidding trying to have a good time while beautiful people like you are out.

Then spit in her face.

Observe again.

Could be an interesting experiment in "dick behaviour" and its consequences.

That's obviously true but there are many, many kinds of dickish behavior.

I'm curious though-- you've actually read all three of those books? They all talk extensively about kin and group altruism as well as different reproductive strategies.

_________________
When in Doubt, Freeze Her Out.

From an evolutionary view, if thats the stance you favour.

The key with altruism is that we seek out altruistic individuals. If we identify a person as both altrusitic and in possession of qualities that would be useful to us, then we seek to include this person in our world.

Ass-holes by contrast do not contribute to other people, over-whelmingly they get laid by girls who's low self esteem or stupidity has blinded them into investing their feelings in a dirt bag. These guys only appeal to a particular girl in a particular situation.

You want to appeal to a broader audience? Then appeal to a human beings want for someone valuable who will give something valuable. Be that a good time or just a good fuck!

It's not "nice guys finish last" its more "nice guys who have no redeeming qualities finish last.... or turn into assholes"

Disagree. I personally know 4 nice guys with intellectual, emotional, etc qualities, but they don't have a gf. Why? Because they don't know how to approach a woman and believe that "the one" will fall out of the sky. Too bad, because they are the greatest relationship material for a generic girl.

Being nice to people doesnt make you a Nice Guy. Being nice, letting yourself be walked all over and then complaining you cant get girls makes you a Nice Guy. Nice Guys are often bitter that they are looked over as dating material, but what they dont realise is its because they dont have the balls to stand up for themselves and take control, hence the original post. You can be a guy and you can be nice and pull chicks quite easily.

I thought this was a good read LINK

Read your post, you answered why they don't have gf's, and it wasn't because they were nice.

Still curious-- had you actually read those three books I mentioned?

What exactly do they say about rogue strategies vs nurturing strategies?

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When in Doubt, Freeze Her Out.