I'm not sure how helpful (or not) my comments will be, but here it goes.

I cheated my ex (no, we weren't engaged or married, but I still did something that was wrong and hurt several people who in no way, shape or form deserved it. I have also firmly resolved never to do so again, but to continue). Apart from the bitchiness, she's not acting that differently from how I did. I cheated because I was confused, because I liked the guy I cheated with and because I honestly didn't care about my now-ex enough to refrain anymore. I was confused, I didn't know what I wanted, and I also told the now-ex about the incident. Cheating doesn't always indicate a bad or flawed character--anyone is capable of it, and people also make mistakes. It's how we learn.

I don't know enough about the actors involved to unequivocally condemn or defend anyone. Could she be an insane, conniving bitch (and no, I don't find that term particularly offensive when used in the right context. I have absolutely met women for whom the term "bitch" isn't an insult--it's an apt description of their personality)? Yes. Could she also simply, as I was, be deeply confused about what she wants? Yes. Could there be more to this story than we have been told? Absolutely. Be careful when judging others solely on the basis of a spare description provided on he internet--people are generally more complex than such a format can accurately portray.

Melissa,

You used the word "confused" three times in that post and each time it was in reference to "what you wanted".

Example: I was just so confused about what I wanted. (just an example, not an exact quote, but the basic gist)

Were you "confused" about the difference between right and wrong?

I think cheating does show a character flaw. Is it one that a person can fix? I think so, but it takes time, perspective, and maturity.

I'm not calling you a bad person. BUT when you cheat and tell your story about it, it seems suspect when you make reference to how "confused" you were when you did it so many times that it ... almost ... if I didn't know any better ... sounds like an excuse.

Sorry if I seem like an asshole, but I've been cheated on by every girl I have been in a long term relationship with. Each and every one of them and their flawless character. They were always "confused" too.

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what dr. house brings to medicine, i bring to everyday life (an extreme dose of cynicism), don't listen to the curmudgeon!

Mack 2.0

Why would I be offended? As I once put it, I became everything that I ever hated. I am ashamed of very few things that I have done in my life, and cheating is not one of them. It happened, I learned from it, and I try to lend additional support to friends who find themselves in similar situations (on other side) because of it. I don't condone cheating on a partner, that said. Interestingly, though, I've found that not condemning can actually be more effective than being condemnatory. In my admittedly limited experience, unless the cheater really doesn't care, he/she on some level actually wants to be condemned by other people who know what's going on. Refusing to provide that means that they have nothing to push back against when thinking about their own actions. (I have to emphasize again--really limited sample size here, and probably isn't applicable to the general population at large. This effect only occurs if someone is already feeling guilty/conflicted about what he/she has done.)

I have never claimed to be a good person, and nor will I. I don't think that I'm a particularly bad person either, that said. I'm just a person, complete with flaws, biases and weaknesses.

When I talk about my experiences, I'm not seeking forgiveness or validation. I relay such stories because it's how I relate to other people, and in the hopes that others may find them to be helpful in some way.

If you've been cheated on by every girl that you've ever been with, you may want to look in the mirror. I'm not saying that you're necessarily a bad boyfriend or that you drive them to cheat; you may simply be unlucky, or be drawn to people who are more prone to such behavior. That said, if the only commonality in multiple different equations that all end up producing the same result (ie cheating) is you, there's a pretty good chance that whatever the issue/problem may be (partner selection, ect.), it lies in said commonality. (I don't know enough about you to say that this applies, but it must be said.)

You are right. And I have.
You are right. I was nice and trusting. Now I'm neither.

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what dr. house brings to medicine, i bring to everyday life (an extreme dose of cynicism), don't listen to the curmudgeon!

Melissa I'm sure you are aware you exhibit traits of at least a Narcissist and potentially a Sociopath. Narcissists and Sociopaths are able to function in ways harming others because they largely believe what they do they are not culpable for, it is for personal gain, and those who are on the receiving end deserve it to a certain extent.

"I cheated because I was confused." Lack of responsibility or culpability.
"I like the guy I guy I cheated with," Personal benefit at the expense of another.
"I honestly didn't care about my now-ex enough to refrain anymore." He deserved it.
Sorry, your form of argumentation was only valid in the seventies--not a particularly great moment in American history. I am not capable of cheating on anyone. I don't believe that makes me exceptional or a saint, I think that makes me human. Mistakes happen on homework assignments, not when making choices involving other people's lives and well being.

The fact you emphasize cheating as a, "learning moment," is once again a sign of Narcissism/Sociopath complex. Both personalities strive to develop the best facade to operate and do such by learning to what extent they can harm other individuals without exposing their true nature.
No people are very simple actually. I can sniff you out for what you are very easily. People are only complicated in the sense, it is difficult for many to accept what they see. Especially when they are told what they see is actually not what is real. I'm of the, "What you see is what you get, " category of people. I'm also of the, "I judge books by their cover," line of thinking as well.

I'm not worried about you. None of nephews will ever be worried about you; I'm training them how to distinguish the smell of strippers from good women.

Mack, in my humble opinion there is no point in validating or communicating with her. All you are doing is making her better at doing what she does; picking vulnerable subjects to exploit. She pegged you, man. Meaning she inferred you were personally invested in her reply; she figured you have a problem being cheated on. By confirming it, you have just made her a little bit better at what she does.

Nashlife,

You do realize the problems with trying to diagnose someone with personality disorders on the internet, right? You don't have nearly the information necessary nor, I doubt, the clinical training. The other fun thing about personality disorders is that personality traits typically occur on a spectrum, with only the extreme ends being classified as a disorder. Thus, it's perfectly normal for someone, for instance, to display a few behaviors typically found in people with OCD and yet not have the disorder. As an aside, narcissism is also influenced by one's society--Americans tend to score higher on certain narcissistic diagnostic tests than people from other cultures. Also, narcissism has, as of the most revised DSMV, been declassified as a mental disorder.

I'm not attempting to either exploit or blame anyone (in reference to your comments about how I supposedly "pick[...] vulnerable subjects to exploit). I view it as similar to the case of a woman who marries an abusive husband, and then finally divorces him only to end up in a series of relationships with other abusive men. The men, although behaving in a reprehensible manner, are not the problem here. Two instances may be a coincidence, three rarely are. The problem is that, for whatever reason, she is selecting men who are prone to abusing women. It doesn't help her to say, "well, clearly, they're all assholes and don't deserve you." In order for her to move forward, she would need to take an honest look at herself and her relationships with men in general in order to figure out why she is drawn to that kind of guy so that she can avoid repeating said cycle in the future.

Again, I don't know Mack's situation. It's possible that there is a third variable in play that is always present (ie. the culture that he's in encourages women not to accept responsibility for their actions, makes them overly materialistic so that when a guy with more money comes along they jump on the bandwagon, ect.) I don't know, but when there is a repeating pattern, the variables that are creating it are worth exploring. I said what it said because it needed to be said, not to cause additional pain.

I'm fully aware of who I hurt and how much pain I caused, and I assure you, I don't revel in that knowledge. In retrospect, do I wish that things had turned out differently? Yes, although I doubt that they could have done so. In that kind of situation, there are very few amends that can be made. Beyond a certain point, there is also little to be gained from constant self-evisceration. Eventually, you have to move on, a truism for both the cheater and the cheatee. The question is whether or not you do so in a healthy manner. There is little that I can do beyond resolving not to subject future partners to similar circumstances. (And no, I would never say that my ex deserved what I did but, by that same token, I didn't deserve some of the stuff that he did to me, either. It was a bad relationship, and it always was, although I didn't realize it at the time. Does that excuse the cheating? No, but things are not as cut-and-dry as you would like them to be.)

lol! Though Doth Protest Too Much...

There is really nothing more I would like to write to you. Other than, in the end there is place for Good and Evil...but that is only in the end though...

Stop it. Melissa made a mistake in her past and is fully aware it was a mistake. There is no need for attack.

Melissa, would you say that the lesson learned here isn't actually about cheating per se, but about learning when it is time to end a bad relationship? My guess is, if you had the experience or courage to simply break up with your ex when the relationship started going bad, there would have been no cheating.

And before anyone retorts, "That doesn't make cheating okay to do," I agree. It still isn't okay. But a better defense against cheating than "just don't ever do it," and a smarter way to approach relationships where cheating is possible, is to learn to recognize when a relationship is going sour. Beyond that, one must know himself (or herself) well enough to know what he wants, and have the strength to follow through with a break-up.

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- Lux et Veritas -

I, for one, didn't have a problem with what Melissa said.

I was just busting her balls...err ovaries...because she admitted to cheating. It's a sore spot with me.

There was actually truth in what she said to me, about "me" being the common denominator. That is absolutely true and an intelligent observation on her part.

She may have gotten under other people's skin, but not mine.

We cool, Melissa!

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what dr. house brings to medicine, i bring to everyday life (an extreme dose of cynicism), don't listen to the curmudgeon!

Wal,

Thanks for the support.

And you are correct about the whole learning experience thing being both about the cheating itself as well as when to end a bad relationship. I'm not going to argue that everyone who gets cheated on drives the other person to cheat, or that every person who cheats is in a bad relationship, but in my case I was in a bad relationship and it contributed to what happened. It was my first relationship, and I didn't have enough experience to know how bad it was.

Mack,

Don't worry, I never had a problem with you either. Cheating is, and should be, a sore subject. I used to abhor all who cheated, something that, based on my own experience, I can no longer do, because I realize that it isn't all the stereotypical case of someone saying, "I don't care how much pain I cause or how many people I betray, I just want to have fun." Well-intentioned people can screw up, or become confused about what they want. When I cheated, it hurt everyone involved--me included, and not because of my ex's reaction. In my view, nearly as much--if not more--pain in this world is caused by confusion, misunderstanding, dueling intentions, ect. rather than outright and callous deceit.

Women Seriously, I had developed in the work to me and I just ignore it and do not talk about it again and move on. Only to find months down the line, perhaps one of the other male in the same position as mine, was fired, with the ratio of the girl. Now he is in office.

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