As an American football player back in High-school, and an MMA practitioner who will be a flag runner for our uni MMA fight team, (we try to avoid "cage fighter" as it brings bad press) I can say safely...

Most of those kinds of people you listed are NOT alpha males, quite simply they are the guys who used to steal your lunch money when you were 14, as result you started idolised them thinking they were more "alpha" than you.

Truth is.
The alpha male is top of the chain, who do you think is really top of the chain between these two?

1. Rawr rawr alpha male Max the Line backer.

STATS: Has banged 3 chicks in the past 8 months and got 2 sacks at last weeks game, works part time at Mac-donalds and likes "getting crunk" watching sports with the guys. He lives at home with his mum.

2. Latte sipping -I don't like contact sports- Paul.

STATS: He owns the shop that sells Max his sports gear, he owns a 2 bedroom house which he lives in with his gf, he employs a staff team of 10 to help run his store and has connections with some major whole salers. Enjoys milky coffee and poetry, sometimes he goes to see plays performed by the local drama troup. Got into sports because he spotted a gap in the market.

You really think Max is the "alpha male" here?
An alpha male is the one with status and power, in the real world, Max hasn't got shit on Paul.

When Kasabi mentions "alpha males" he is alluding to the fact that the real "alpha males" don't fit the stereotype that most PUA's give them.

Edit: Why does everyone assume rawr rawr guys get laid? I've spent half my life with rawr rawr guys, they do not get laid anymore than the next guy.

Good point

and the stereotype of the person who use to steal your lunch money is the exact stereotype of an alpha male that im trying to get across in the simplest form.

I agree with you its just i believe their is a definition of an alpha male
and i believe the "alpha male" guides will help you to improve yourself but you wont be an actual "alpha"

And I agree their are numerous personality's that get you laid

As said before if someone who read's a guide on becoming an alpha they're less likely to be a pussy and actually do better in life and have an increased chance of getting laid

I think most people can recognize status and leaders. Maybe not continuous but certainly on an unconscious level. Tyler/RSD made an interesting point in blueprint decoded with his caveman example. How did the cavegirls know to go with one caveman over the other back then. It wasn't because he had money or a rolls royce in his driveway or to extend that example, was a billionare like those guys.
Probably simply because he had the confidence in his enviorment and either had his shit together or knew he would survive and get it handled even in the tough times and carried himself with that ease. Same ease those guys probably do.I'm not saying all rich guys have that confidence to be good with women. I agree with Kasabi but in their situational enviorment where everyone is aware of there status and power they probably do have confidence and get a lot of attention from women flirting with them, and RSD talks about that situational confidence.

I think Alpha in the community is a term branded for the confidence and people study it try to model the confident behaviors. I think it's easier to carry yourself with that easy when you have the accomplishments and finacial backing to fall back and draw on like most of our world leaders have. Those guys are certainly leaders in modern society but I also think humans are still somewhat conditioned to the small tribes we used to live in and you can have leaders within your bubble. The high school jock might be the top dog in high school just because he knows he can physically dominate the other kids, and carries himself with that easy and girls see it. The guy throwing the party at his house knows he has value, Tyler uses the Denny's manager example of how some managers hook up with a lot of their wait staff beause in that enviorment they have situational confidences and this is what his female wait staff is seeing that he has power and status even if only in this envoiorment he is the top dog. The 7/11 guy might get off work hit the bar and have fun and dominate in the bar enviorment because he's the most fun and relaxed there or hit an open mic and move a crowd with his music.

Lot of interesting dynamics but I think we are only looking at the surface level. Alpha to me is someone that's relaxed and at ease in whatever enviorment and he does what he wants and people can follow him or not he doesnt need them but most will if he's a true alpha. I think these "alpha' kind of guys get laid and are good guys to model but I understand Kasabi point about them not being the only guys that have succes and lots of types of people getting success. I've also noticed 2 examples of quite frail non confrontational guys that that kind of sneaks around in the shadows, unnoticed that hooks up with tons of girls and many girls in relationships. Kind of loners and anti-alphas at the bar, as a dude you never notice them or feel threatend but these guys have hooked up with many dudes chicks and are very discreet type guys so I certainly see Kasibi point about different type guys getting laid or different gameplans.

For me, being alpha is very important, but I think that's because I see being alpha as something maybe a bit different to some other people. I think alpha simply means being confident and secure in yourself; not seeking approval from others, etc. It doesn't mean being a jock or an AMOG douchebag.

~Deebo

_________________
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

I think you mean that some aggressive sports people are alpha. My main sport used to be a computer game and I took a fair few girls from the rugby players, but like rugby, not all computer game players end up with a girl in their bed.

Kasabi

It seems to me that you are fed up with the whole debate/topic of Alpha.
If this is the case i agree.

Self improvement is a worthwhile purpose in life.

Pretending to be the king of the jungle is not.

It strikes me that the whole PUA industry is based on copying some mythical ALPHA MAN hero lifestyle to succeed in life.

I suppose we are only what others deem us to be.
We are judged by our peers.

As long ago as i can remember there has only been one piece of advice that i have heard from everybody.

Just be yourself.
You can't fool yourself.
And only you stand to lose.
PUA will drive you mad in the end.

After 20 years of seeing alot of weird shit all i know is that i know NOTHING !

The real King of the jungle is keeping his head down and not drawing attention to himself!
And as for sports stars. Nah.

_________________
Its getting Hot out there.

Its all to easy.

I want to be a tree!

Just what kind of Doctor is "Doc" any how? Neurosurgery? Anthropology? Gynecology? Seriously, Doc is nothing but a dumb-ass miner. . . but stand him up next to "Dopey" and "Bashful" and the guy suddenly seems like a genius. Do you understand what's going on here? Our identities exist only in reference to those around us. What happens if you toss Doc into a room full of surgeons discussing a medical procedure? The guy becomes DOPEY real quick . . .

Go outside and take a look. Watch and observe. . . go to your work place, go to school. Take a look at our politicians. Go see a bunch of kindergartners fool around in the play ground. In all social situations, a "Doc" will emerge. You will see your Dopey. You will see "Bashful" and all of our Dwarf characters and more. This is simply the way a social group functions. These characters in a group MUST EMERGE because these individual traits exist in all of us. We all have a need for a whole spectrum of emotions and experiences. If we cannot/do not experience these things through ourselves, we do it through others. (Ever been happy or sad because somebody close to you was happy or sad?) And interestingly, there is no such thing as a group of "Dopeys" or a group or "Docs". Even a group that seems like bunch of losers to you WILL have an 'athlete' of the group, a "Doc", etc . . .

Here's the million dollar question: Who becomes "who" in a group and why?

#1. A great majority of its members will passively accept their position. You'll be amazed how the littlest switch can shift a member's position in a group. A little remark, a little event, and most people are so happy that THEY HAVE ANY POSITION in a group, they'll just smile and go with it. Most will in fact strive to REINFORCE the position given on to them by the will of the group.

#2. Then you have the dim wit psychotics.(google psychotic) Regardless of how the group is harmonizing with one another, these guys just continue to remind us WHO they are and how HAPPY they are with themselves. (Sound familiar people?) In real life, I'd think that there are extremely few people who belong in this category for it's a life of loneliness and misery. They know that others think of him/her as idiots. They know they are laughed behind their backs. They know they have absolutely no friends. Yet, they just continue to beat themselves up over, over, and over again.

#3. Then you have the 'socially aware'. This is in fact the CEO of the group. This is the guy who knows the strengths and abilities of others around him and knows how to carry this group to meet any challenge they face. This individual not only allows strengths of other individuals to shine but ASSISTS in the process through shining light on his own positive traits. (Go back to the 7 dwarfs and see how the positive traits of each individual improved the lives of the group)

It's only natural that most members of this forum belong in group #1. The big problem is that they think the REWARDS enjoyed by people who belong in group #3 can somehow be earned by behaving like those in #2. This is idiocy. I'd think that those who highly recommend this method here have never behaved this way in real life. Do you want to know who really belong in group #2? These are the guys who seldom recommend anything, type a few self-promotional crap regardless of the topic or the thread, then fuck off when everybody laughs at them. This is EXACTLY what happens in their real lives. Guys, think about this very carefully before diving yourself into #2.

Ready to work towards #3? Let's discuss . . .

By the way, you guys were awful quick to identify "alpha": Athlete! (Of course there are athlete alphas out there, are you kidding?) Non-athlete! (Of course there are non athletic alphas out there . . .) The more important question for us to answer is: who are YOU?

This was certainly me up until I started pick up, I was content to just be accepted by any group of people I thought was cool that would let me tag along. Originally I tried to fit into a crowd of popular kids to gain status as a young adult that sometimes would actually invite me along but much of the time would treat me like shit and I was clearly a low man in the group and got left out many times. I look at it now and all the low value and needy crap I projected I invited it like AFC's do with hot chicks.

Eventually I figured out that supplicating to be in that group that shit on me wasn't worth it and I found a good group of friends that accepted me and I fit with and was respected. I wasn't a leader by any means but always felt like a valuable part of the whole that they always invited and listened to my input. I meshed well with everyone and was known as the non confrontational guy. I was liked by most everyone rarely ruffled any feathers or had any drama with anyone, which you know now Kasabi Im almost addicted to drama and I also get into some confrontation nearly every weekend now with other dudes.
I've been studying social dynamics and practicing pick up for about 2 years now and I don't even know where I fit in anymore as far as any social group because Im basically a loner on friday and saturday night. Within my old group of friends that I still hang with I have become a leader I guess, and they respect me for trying to get this shit handled but I think most were weak and coming from a similar place I was. They also don't like the kind of bars I like to go to meet women so they don't join me out or come support me, and when they have they slow me down, so as a result I have gone out about 85% of the time by myself on the weekend practicing pick up.

This paragraph hit me a little because I haven't been able to make any real new friends even though Im out meeting loads of people every weekend. I do have acquaintances I have met when I go over to certain bars, but none I would call friends and I don't talk to them to outside of a bar other than to shoot them a short text that Im heading to the bar. It's something to think about, and you'd think after 2 years I'd have met at least a like minded wingmen in the field atleast while I was out. The only ones I have are just other loners and we chit chat briefly basically to not look as weird, and usually all have our thick out alone exteriors up.

Being able to go out alone I think is good in a lot of ways and helps teach independence, but I think personally I have taken it way to far. I actually like going out and alone to a degree it's an adventure but I feel like I have developed a thick exterior and ego because when Im out and I carry myself with an attitude that I don't care what anyone thinks, these people don't matter, I don't need anyone, Im the man etc. I"d actually tell myself this shit like affirmations on the way to the bar. So it's real easy to see why I have a hard time making friends I guess but I needed those belief systems for a long time to get me out to the bar and feeling comfortable and thought they helped attract girls. At this point I think I have mostly internalized and I really don't care that much or ever feel uncomfortable out alone. Maybe not confidence but indifference for sure.

I really thought acting like this independent, not giving a fuck person, would draw people to me but it certainly hasn't, and if it did Im sure it would only draw the weak people looking to gain status like I used to be when I hung out with the popular kids. I don't even know what group I would fit into or how people really perceive me. I think some see me out alone and how carry myself maybe some respect it Im out working on shit, other I think believe Im an asshole who's full of himself, some think Im a weirdo just in my own world, some probably see through it all that Im a lonely guy looking for fun.

At this point I don't think I could be a follower any any group just hopping to get invited along ever again or even accept just a middle guy in a group that went with the flow. If it came to that I would just disconect go out by myself or wonder off and do my own thing and I know I can and can still have a pretty fun time, which is in a lot of ways why I am a loner now and have few real friends and it's a concern as my other friends are falling off as I don't hang out with them as much or just moving away and Im not meeting anyone really.

Any suggestions on how to get to #3 from my position.

*Regardless of what you think, your value to a group is decided by others. You choose the product, you set the price, and offer them a pitch. They buy or they do not. Believing that you're a good salesman means just that . . . you believe that you're a good salesman. Believing that you have a high quality product means just that . . . you believe that you have a high quality product.

There is something I've noticed about highly regarded/desired people . . . they are usually really fucking good at something; Lol . . . well, this might seem obvious but most people probably do not give this topic enough thought:

There is a difference between people who are just really fucking good at something and people who are highly regarded for that talent. To me, the difference is 'influence'. You can be the #1 guy in the World for your chosen gig but if that talent cannot positively influence the members of your group, all you'll get is a congrats. On the other hand, you could be very average with your gig but if that position stands to positively influence people in your group . . . gulp, you've got the makings of an amog.

Silly example:

My uncle is a World renown surgeon. He's a got a few hefty titles printed on his business card and 50% percent of his work time is spent flying all over the World to lecture on everything from the importance of a healthy diet to the key points for one of the many surgical procedures that he's developed. Back in the day, he ran a pretty decent game with his referent power alone. Pretty freakin' alpha until he steps aboard a fishing boat, bird-nests every reel given to him, pukes his guts out, and suggests to turn the boat around. Not cool. Who gets the high fives? My uncle or my buddy's kid brother who donates a case of beer, reels up the catch of the day AND offers to spool up the f'd up reels?

Spiritually speaking, I believe that it is a worthwhile endeavor to strive for excellence in anything. Practically speaking, we should be aware that our endeavors will always be gauged by not only the level of competency but more by the potential influence on our associates. And if this seems logical, then it only makes sense that not only must we develop our strengths, we must also be aware of our environment. What good is a Real Estate tycoon at a college beer chugging contest? What good is the 2010 National Beer chugging champ at a State planning board meeting?

In the next post, I'll offer some practical methods that I've learned from the 'socially aware'. For now, generally speaking, I think that it's very important to find something that you're extremely good at. (Read Chief's thread on this)

Second, you need to find a SECOND thing that you're good at. You do not have to be the best at this second endeavor but you should still be pretty freakin' good at it.

^This is simply something that I've seen in ALL successful people. Rarely do you see a champion of anything who ONLY does that one thing very well. They always have a 2nd thing. Even the 'jack of all trades' will usually have one skill that outshines everything else followed by a second thing that he does pretty well.

And this "1-2 pattern" exists even within a specific discipline. A good boxer will do everything well but he'll own a best skill followed by his second best skill; everything else is usually a distant 3rd and 4th. Maybe he'll have a left jab and a right cross. A wrestler might have a single and a high crotch. A musician might play bass and drums. A chef will have his top 2 proteins. etc, etc . . .

Why is this important? Here's a basic/general take: The thing that you are best at is your 'go-to' value add to any group in just about any situation. If you're the best golfer of a group and Tiger Woods decides to join your party, you'll have your second skill which should still outshine the rest.

Let's see if we can turn this ideology into a strategy for a night club and pu/social specific situations . . .

Fantastic thread!

Kasabi makes some great points about this community. I feel very similar to you in my thoughts but I didn't have a way to put this in words. You illustrated it so well.

Thanks so much.

The perspectives you put it in were fantastic.

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Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

I really enjoy reading your posts kasabi, just to let you know.

I agree about too many people shouting "I'm alpha becasue i did xvy today!" but saying that alpha traits don't get a large portion of girls you would be kidding yourself.

_________________
"I guess a little small talks in order here now."

"Do I look like a gentleman to you in this shirt and these pants?"

"I know you from some place."

Saved, Good post. Is it good to focus on people flaws like the example of the 7 dwarfs I ve been told profiling is bad

_________________
Three Types of Players:
1) Those who doesn't know whats happening
2) Those who watch what happens
3) Those who make it happen

so it boils down to:
there are many traits that get you laid. some people are alpha, some people are arty, some people are clever. these things all work. the bad stuff happens when you try to be something your not.

i am a nerd and also a boxer and MMA fighter. i try to be the alphamale in my social group of nerds and im possibly quite high. i definatly have more female attention than my friends. but at the same time while im training i am verry beta. the guys at the gym are better at boxing and more confident. therefore there is no point in my wasting time trying to be alpha there. i wont suceed.

same at school. i may be able to beat the crap out of the cool kids, but they can still destroy me with words if they want. so im submissive around them. what im saying is being alpha meens being the highest socialy. to do this you need a skill, wich is why i think that skill idea is great.

most alphamales are good at something because they are driven and work hard. this is a trait of masculinity and therefore most alphas are masculine. most masculine people are physicaly big and like tough sports. they also have the confidence to get involded in these sports.

so people arent alpha because they play rugby. they play rugby because they are alpha. so the question is, is it possible to become the true alphamale instead of a tryhard dick that acts hard and jokes alot. and is it the most attractive feature?

would someone be more attractive by being arty and mysterious. maybe. but the thing about being alpha is that most sucessful people are also alpha. and the success adds to the quality of life and attractiveness of the person. so being alpha is attractive. and the benefits of being alpha are also attractive (lots of friends, confidence, nice job e.c.t.).

at the end of the day live your life how you want to live it. changing who you are to get laid is pathetic and will destroy you. be the person you are, but be the best person you can be. some people just cant be alpha, you will be unhappy if you try. just work out what you want to do with your life and focus on your positive features. you will be more attractive as a comfortabe hapy with positive features, than as a desperatly failing attempt at being alpha.

this is just my take. im learning so this is a guess but it seems right

Alpha = being a leader. Thats pretty much it.