let me make a little disclaimer before i start so people dont all lose their shit over this.

** saying that looks matter does not mean that less fortunate looking people cant still develop good game or even out game people. Good looks doesnt necessarily mean clothes or style. The core to a good looking person is their stature, bodily proportions, and facial structure.


Typically in pick up their are three situations. 1 on 1, a group of girls and 1 guy, mixed group of guys/girls.

Situation A: 1 on 1 (ex your alone and you run into a girl at a coffee shop who is also alone)

- now in 1 on 1 basically looks dont matter at all because although a woman may gather an initial negative first impression, she will also change her mind very quickly if you have an attractive personality. women are attracted to personality first, looks second.

Situation B: 1 man and a group of girls (typically they are friends)

- heres where looks will certainly affect your game, again this doesnt mean that if your ugly you wont have a chance , but an attractive man will encounter less obstacles.

- right off the bat a less attractive male will have to overcome some barriers. Firstly if a woman is with her friends and a less than ideal man comes up to her she will be thinking "do i want my friends to see me talking to this guy" which will provide more initial resistance during the interaction. The man will have to put more effort into winning over the friends because the group does not see him as a potential mate for their girlfriend.

Situation C : Mixed group OR 1 girl multiple guys (competition)

-this is where looks will have their biggest factor in getting the girl of choice.

-essentially being good looking (or the best looking out of all the males) will give you the highest value. this is where the benefits come in, A woman will never fully dismiss the most attractive guy in the group unless he does something to either LOWER HIS VALUE, or DISQUALIFY himself. Other competing males will game her and work their asses off to raise their value but that still will fall short of the most attractive mans auto DHV he gets by being sexy. ive seen this happen many times, a guy will game a woman quite well but since the most attractive man in the group is still available she will give him chance as well.

-put yourself in the situation, your talking to two women, an hb 8 and and hb 9.5. the 8 is flirting with you, your having fun and would enjoy sleeping with her but the 9.5 is just quietly standing their still showing that shes also available. even though the 8 is pretty much a sure lock, you will still give the 9.5 a chance to win you over. people always want the thing of most value and being good looking gives huge amounts of value.

-of course if the best looking male has worse game than the other men this will act as a dhv and blow you out hard and fast unless shes REALLLLY superficial.

but in the end, if two men have the same amount of game. which one wins? the better looking one. i have seen this countless times over and over.

other benefits of being naturally attractive:
- women will generally respond to you better which helps with the PU learning process.
- generally get better reactions in society which equates into confidence.

One major exception is if a woman is attracted to "her ten"

this is the truth, ive seen it happen many many times. the better looking man does less and still gets the girl.

this isn't exactly news. Yes looks matter, but the whole point of PUA is to improve the things we actually have control of.

You're projecting. You can't put yourself in the situation, because as a man you're naturally more inclined to prioritize attractiveness.


-Roz

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NOTE: I'm taking a break from the site, and hence will not be responding to any messages!

I partially agree with the OP, but not his final conclusion.

I do think that looks matter, but they are only the deciding factor in certain situations.

1 - Sexualized situations with nudity and a lot more men than women.

singles nudist resorts, single guy at a swingers party, adult sex dating websites, craigslist etc. . The situation is reversed from normal society. The women do not pick on personality first, may not want to know your name, and they pick a lot more like men in these scenarios.

2 - Crowds of very shallow , but good looking, people.

If you are not up to par in looks in certain crowds, you get socially excluded. End of story.

3 - Insurmountable Age Difference.

This is very individual, but there comes a point in every man's life where he cannot get sex from an attractive woman without bribing or paying for it in some way. Gifts, cash, jobs in his corporation, a spot in his playboy magazine, etc.

Normal every day situations, coffee houses, bars/clubs, supermarket, college campuses, on and on, none of those doom a guy if he does some self improvement.

Looks matter A LOT,even more than money,or social value.
I dont how can someone disagree with this.

I'll add my few cents to this...

In my completely honest opinion, as long as you don't have some kind physical disfigurement, such as half your face missing or something along those lines, looks don't mean shit.

I have personally seen some ugly fuckers, (they would make your eyes hurt), pull average+ women and i've seen them do this time and time again.

I have three guys in mind in particular. One of them I stayed with for a couple weeks. He is ugly and fat. And trust me, hes ugly. Over the course of my time staying there, I personally witnessed him bring back several women. Most of them were average (7s if you must ask) and still better than what most aspiring PUAs get. I do, however, remember him one night bringing back a girl that made me look twice. She was a real cutie.

The other two guys im thinking of breaks down like this:

Ugly Guy 1: Pulls average women. Hes not extremely consistent but or a normal night for him he will walk into a club and at the very least have a few makeouts, some phone numbers, and quite possibly an average looking girl. Again, probably 7s if you must ask for a number. Hes fairly new to this (less than a year) and before hand has never even kissed a girl. He has taken two bootcamps that I know of. His first with some local PUA, his second with RSD.

Ugly Guy 2: This guy's uglyness is right in between the first two guys. Ugly, super skinny, but pretty good. been at this stuff for a little over 3.5 years and is pretty decent. For the last few months he has been in an exclusive relationship with a girl that has done some modeling but is currently working on a law degree. She is a true stunner! Before her he pulled a lot of 8s very consistently. Took one bootcamp with Cory Skyy.

I should also mention that none of those three guys are rich. I will also mention that I while have witnessed plenty of not un-attractive dudes pull hot women, these three guys are super fucking ugly and thats why I chose these three to talk about.

Everyone here can continue o theorize whatever they want and which ever side of the debate they want, but my view has been stated and I fully believe in it because of what I have witnessed in THE REAL AND ACTUAL WORLD.

That being said, if you have some kind of physical deformity that makes you look something like this:





learning "game" isn't going to help a whole lot.

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False, its actually looks first THEN personality. Girls will see your looks first then your personality second. Within 15 seconds a girl will basically decided if she wants to have sex with you or not. And all she really has to go on is your looks (which does include how you carry your self, something you forgot to mention in your disclaimer ). This is not to say one can't "win" her over if she decided not to sleep with you within 15 seconds.
I think you give looks way way to much value. I am not saying looks don't matter as they do, but they are not everything (which you seem to almost make them out to be). As most girls do NOT put nearly as much value as guys generally do when it comes to looks. Girls are more likely to put more value on personality and other things like money etc.

When it comes to how much looks matter, I always use a simple rule called the 20 scale. (please bare in bind this is a ROUGH idea and obviously in reality there are MANY more factors to take into account).

Assume that all women subconsciously mark men on a scale of 1-10 for both looks and personality. Now, everyone women will have a "attraction" point ranging somewhere between 0 and 20. The "attraction point" is where a man becomes attractive and sexually interesting to the female. Interestingly, the "attraction point" isn't constant - there are multiple factors that can change at what point they find a guy attractive depending on their mood, social influence etc etc.

Now, lets start by saying a girl has an attraction point of 13. This means that your score for looks and personality must give a total of over 13 for her to be attractive to you. This could mean that if you are an 8 in looks, you only need to be 5 in personality and like wise if you have 4 in looks then you need to be 9 in personality for her to find you attractive. In reality, an attraction point of 13 is probably higher than most women, but again, there is no way to tell what kind of woman has a higher or lower attraction point.

But you see, this is where things get a little more complicated. Along side the total score, you also have to factor in a minimum score for both looks and personality separately.
Say for example you have a 10/10 personality but only 3/10 looks (so you are a lot below average) you may instantly be out of some women's sexual interest even though you still meet the total 13. This is just the same with men looking at women;
Most guys want a good looking woman with a good personality. Think of a 10/10 looks wise woman but who is a total bitch 24/7 - not very attractive to most guys (at least not long term) and to the same extent if a girl is perfect personality wise, but is 2/10 looks wise most men will not be sexually interested in her.

Basically, this can be calculated by:

Looks > minimum
personality > minimum
Looks + personality > attraction point

It is only if all those conditions are met will you be considered a potential sexual partner.

The very facts that some women will sleep with a guy just because he is good looking, and that women talk about attractive guys show that they do matter.

As for how much, that is something that varies from woman to woman.

Trixta, you seem to of late become one of the consistently most sensible posters on this forum.

I support this. ^^

you are assuming that looks matter as much as personality.

To me you must be good looking enough just to enroll in a casual conversation.(which doesn't take a lot). Then let the game begin.

(If you are that ugly that can't even get into convo, you might want to have some initial social proof to substitute for looks)

I'm a little confused, that is total controversial with this:

and-you-thought-looks-mattered-vt20942.html

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I am not assuming looks matter as much as personality, read my post properly before coming to conclusions as to what I assume and what I don't.

For a start, I said at the very beginning that there were many more complexities and that my post was just there to illustrate a point.

Secondly, I also said the minimum value for either looks and personality and total attraction point vary between women. Some women will not date a guy who is any worse looking than an 8 but don't care what his personality is like just to the same degree some women couldn't care less what the guy looks like as long as he has a great personality (as well as everything in between).

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I've read your post and the reason why I said that you assume looks matter as much as personality because you gave 10/20 to looks and 10/20 to personality.

For some women its true but we should have some understanding of what percentage of women we are talking about. There are women with different fetishes all around the world...but there are few of them.

I'd like to believe that larger part of women will go with personality whether its true or not, sand it can't be tested.

It's true that women pay attention to looks to form first impression(Studies have shown that they care most about men's butts for some reason), but I strongly believe first impression is overrated.

I've personally changed girls' impressions of me many times.(since I'm too lazy to worry about my outfit most of the time I don't think I look too awesome most of the time.)

That's the difference between "handsome" and "charming". Handsome is based on looks, "charming" is their opinion of looks based on your personality.

Anybody can be "charming" to get high points on your looks scale, as long as they got some brains. And since charm comes from personality that means you had something to offer=> more personality points on your scale.

Conclusion: Personality can get you both personality and looks points.

I'm always ready for critiques.

I gave both looks and personality 10/20 as it was easier to explain that way.
I think rather than looking at it as some women like 30looks 70personality it is far more accurate to look at what the MINIMUM they will have.

For me, there are some things I will let slip and other things I just find to be instant no's when it comes to a woman. But to the same extent, I will value different traits at different values - to me, great legs will score more "points" than great breasts - ultimately though it doesn't matter how great their legs are if there is something I cannot stand about their looks or personality.

To the same extent, my original post was just simplifying this further saying that looks and personality each have an individual minimum but also a total maximum.

For a women who values looks over personality, they would "judge" men as having a minimum looks of maybe 7/10 but personality of only 3/10 where by if the guy is less than a 7 he has no shot no matter how great he is as a person.

Now, what she looks for in those looks may vary from woman to women. I know I have a really good jaw and eyes - but if the woman wont accept a guy shorter than her then I am out of the game. This doesn't mean my looks are a disadvantage, it just means some women simply don't like short guys (much the same as I don't like women with really short hair as a general rule). However, there are also women who absolutely LOVE nice eyes and a good jaw line so that alone might get me 8/10 in the looks department.

The same can be applied to personality. Some women might completely love funny where others might like the more serious guy - this is just adding complexity to what forms attraction when my main point was just that looks and personality both matter but mainly in regard to the "minimum" a woman will still find attractive.

This is why so many "guru's" say looks don't matter, because GENERALLY most guys are attractive enough to get past the minimum in the looks department and therefore with a cracking personality can meet the overall attraction point. What traits each women favour is much more finely tuned, just to the same extent a Lamborghini and rolls royce are both amazing cars but in different ways - people will have their own opinion on which they would prefer.

Does that make more sense?