Bboy Sleepy,

"If PU is as vague as you say, how can you hate it? You can certainly dislike some aspects of it, but I don't see logic behind this rule. Technically we all follow some kind of method. It can be: PU, romantic movies, magazines or personal experience."

I meant that the term weird is vague if you don't add additional qualifiers. It's also highly subjective--what is weird to one is normal to another.

"No matter who you are with, his actions will be hugely affected by social conditioning. (and PU is also some kind of conditioning too. IMHO) Why learning how to be good with women from PU, is worse than learning the same thing(intentionally or not) from a romantic movie? IMO learning it intentionally is better since it shows some good qualities about that person."

Actually, I'd never argue that someone, of either gender, should learn how to act based on romantic movies. They perpetuate a false idea of love, and those who sculpt their ideas of what love should be out of what movie love is are destined for disappoint. (There is actually a study to this effect, but I lack the time to find it now.)

"Considering the amount of suffering, guys' inexperience caused to both parties, I believe, some aspects of PU should be spread in mainstream."

Inexperience doesn't have to produce suffering, nor does the fact that one is inexperienced in-and-of-itself imply that inexperience itself is so hideous that any method--however heinous, and no, I'm not talking about PU here--is justified in order to alleviate it.

"If person actually succeed at something, that deserves some respect."

Not really. You might be a really good murder, conman or thief, but that doesn't deserve respect.

I recognize that the world of PU is a very varied place. I don't think that people who study it are inherently bad people, nor do I find the idea of casual sex, FB, FWBs, ect. offensive. I do, however, find certain attitudes and techniques taught within it to be offensive, enough so to the point that I will view guys who I know to have studied PU with suspicion until proven otherwise.

Fin,

"Who says you need to treat the other persons opinions with respect? Giving stupid opinions respect on this forum often just gives them false credit making them more dangerous."

It actually depends upon the point of your engagement. You're right, in some instances there is nothing to be gained and one should simply walk away. Once again, though, an argument's appeal is based heavily upon one's pre-conceived notions and biases, and not necessarily on the strength of the argument itself, particularly given the influence of people's differing worldviews and beliefs.

Do you honestly think I don't find some stuff on here to either be appalling or hilarious in a pathetic sort of way? Of course, it's expected, I am on a Pick-Up forum, after all. I would hardly expect to be loved.

"I can respect that, of course you'd have to really show that kasabi what is giving you is just pure insult and tottaly lacking of content."

You mean that there was actually a point embedded in their somewhere? Jeez, and people think that I can't communicate...

"It's not a case of playing his game, this isn't a game, it's not a war or a struggle or a shouting match. The reason you're getting mocked is because.. well to put it blunty, some of the reasoning you come out with is just so retarded that it's as funny as it is ironicly pathetic. When you really chew on some of the stuff you say it can be quite difficult to supress a giggle."

Again, I hardly expected for either I or my opinions to be loved. The fact that you find them amusing, however, does not necessarily mean that they are wrong.

I feel like my views have been slightly misconstrued, so I though that I should offer some clarification.

The human brain works by placing things--be they people or objects--into categories. Our brains have evolved to favor a conservation of both space and effort. This is demonstratable fact, and I see no reason to rail against it. By that same token, everyone judges other people--in and of itself, there is nothing inherently negative about that fact. No one approaches other people entirely unburdened by their preconceived notions of who and what the other person is--it is literally impossible due to unconscious bias, if nothing else. I'm an adherent of the school of thought that holds it is better to be aware such tendencies than to be in ignorance of them--one cannot combat what one does not know.

I do not condone racism, sexism or homophobia on the basis of the above argument. Is judging people always a good thing? No. Can it produce a great deal of misunderstanding? Yes. Should we always refrain from judging other people, particularly based on our experiences with them? No.

The ability to accurately be able to judge people and gauge where your affections should lay is, as I mentioned earlier, a very valuable skill, and one that people who are socially excluded for any length of time struggle to attain, much to their detriment.

Everyone also have rules, policies, guidelines, whatever you want to call them, which they use to help navigate the world. Laugh all you want, but it's true. Even Kasabi gave a great example of one earlier, in his first response to my post. Whether you believe in grabbing every possible piece of joy that comes you way or whether you're a religious ascetic who wears a hair shirt, you have a basis upon which you live your life.

That's all I'm saying.
This is the result of JUDGING people based on titles and external classifications rather than the person him/herself. "pua = must be great" is as ridiculous as Melissa's rants.



LOL . . . I suddenly felt like using this avatar and realized that the last time I used ^ smiley in this forum was in response to a "Melissa Post". - Great fucking talent. If women are responding to you like ^ avatar. . . you are PRACTICING this talent on a regular basis. Stopping is probably better than continuing and whining but of course some actually enjoy making others puke.

Summary:

Creepy and weird = bad.
Having identified creepy and weird behavior but continuing to be creepy and weird anyways = dumb ass creep. Oh, and yes, it's your 'privilege and right' to be a dumb ass creep . . . I know, I know . . . lol . . . and policies of no defense and no apology are written in contract form on a post-it and stuck to your forehead . . . lol . . . Got it.

*I'm not Bill Cosby nor am I Garrison Keillor. ^This comedic form is merely a result of low level, amateur comedic talents and the limitations of an internet forum. At this point in real life, I would have jabbed my elbow at those around me, pointed at the dumb ass creep, and only whispered ^these jokes. If you're offended, please pretend that we're standing together in real life and I'm pointing my finger at the dumb ass creep and whispering to you.

"What are your opinions on how your view women vs your success with women?"

The irony about views on women vs. success with women is most guys who less idealistic in their views about women tend to have more success. I found this to be true in my own life. When I would put every girl I was attracted to in a positive light, try to be understanding of her, and try to solve everything wrong in the relationship...I would fall flat on my face. Now, I am a little bit more cynical. I tend to sit back and analyze things more and get better results.

"Are you brilliant at anything? If not, what is your plan to get brilliant!"

I am a very intuitive person. I am brilliant at reading people. Within a few minutes of meeting people, I am typically able to get a handle on a person's temperament, personality and whether the particular person will cause me any harm (physical, emotional). I'm also good a reading body language and social dynamics. I used to ignore my intuition about people, women especially, and go with whatever "people" consider what is the proper action in certain situations. And those were the instances where I would have the most problems.

"If you read the posts on this forum with your girlfriend, do you think she would find how people speak on the forum attractive?"

I think my girlfriend would think it was cool that guys want to learn how to be good with women.

Do you think women dislike PU because of what they think we do, or what most people who try it are creepy?

Women dislike PU because on the surface it sounds like men are learning how to trick and deceive women. But men who are good with women are generally believed to be dishonest by most women. I think the irony about the whole situation is...Women are attracted to interesting, fun guys. PU teaches men how to be fun, interesting guys, yet women don't like men to learn PU.

Kasabi,

Much as it pains me to admit it, you may have a point. I accept that, while I may dislike PU as a practice, it is wrong of me to allow this bias to affect my pre-judgments of people who have studied it.

I still hold, however, that the practice of having policies, guidelines, deep-set beliefs, or something along that line as a guide to help you navigate your life is a good idea. You may disagree with where I draw my own personal lines, but the general policy is sound.

Guidelines, yes. You don't want anything too structured navigating your life.

People thought the world was flat because they were told that and never questioned it.

Maybe, rather than saying "guys who learnt PU are all manipulative, bla bla whatever" look at each individual and assess if they are a creepy weirdo or a genuinely nice person.

I still maintain if I were to introduce myself to you in person you would have no way of telling if I had studied PU or if I was just a cocky yet charming man who made you laugh and have a good time - the only way you could guess is if you assume all cocky yet charming men who make you laugh and you have a good time with are pick up artists. Now if you were to assume that, doesn't it seem a little stupid to cut all of those genuine positive people out of your life?

both the thread, and the title, are about how "pua's" piss off women and are jerks. This is not a useful attitude, because none of this "pua" stuff makes anyone into a jerk.

Even if you think some stuff is rude, nobody puts a gun to your head to make you use it. (personally I hate routines and rigid rules because I am responsible for what I say and do, and I want it to be my own creation.)

"pua's" ( I keep using quotes because I find it a vague and self imposed title ) do not act like jerks. jerks act like jerks.

If you don't like guys acting callous, that's fine, but perhaps you should just say that and leave "pua" out of it because it isn't related.

1) it wasn't about how pua's piss of women. It was how being a creepy weirdo makes women see you as a creepy weirdo.

2) Actually, a lot of people who get into PUA start acting like creepy weirdo's - sure, lots of them were creepy before as well but many turn into creepy people.

3) some people who WANT to be pua's think they need to act like creeps to be a pua (again, my point)

4) Guys acting callous is one thing, however in my opinion many guys who get into PUA act callous and therefore, to be the pua they want to be, they need to stop in order to get the results they want.

this thread does not contain a single useful shred of information. It started off negative, with a ridiculous bias, and went down from there.

moderators, please delete this thread.

Melissa, I think you make some good points. "Leave them better than you found them" is condescending and sexist. I also think the HB rating system objectifies women as giving a rating for looks implies all other elements of the person are less important.

However, I think that men and women's lack of understanding of the opposite sex causes unnecessary suffering. Learning PU does help men better themselves and their relationships with women. The nice guy you want to be attracted to can become attractive. Overcoming anxiety, learning about style, understanding how women feel and think, all these things benefit men and the women they come in contact with.

So, yes, some men use pick up to fuck a lot of HB9s and 10s to get back at the cheerleaders who laughed at them in high school. But some men genuinely want to improve themselves so they can have satisfying and healthy relationships with women.