Hey Fucking Italian,

Thanks for your comment, that is highly appreciated.
True, my social circle should help me out a lot, but on the same hand it also blocks me. As I am currently jobless I will probably soon move to another country as well. In that case I will be in the same position as you, however I don't think I will have any problems with building a new social network around me. Been there, done that. If you want I would be able to give you some tips on that, but I'd prefer to talk about that in private to not reveal to much of my true identity in public... you never know
I see your point and I tend to agree with you on that matter. However, I do have the feeling that in this case (the ass grabbing just happened once so far and it was not really grabbing, more stroking) the girl did not mind me doing that at all. I do see your point that I can set myself up as an over-touching guy and I will indeed keep that in mind from now on. I think that sometimes I do exaggerate in KINO indeed.
As I said it wasn't really grabbing, just softly stroking. For me that is wayyyy less difficult to do than to aim for the kiss as you described. I will see what I can do on my one-on-one date tomorrow. Hopefully there I feel less blocked, compared to when my friends are around.

Thanks again for your helpful reply

Friday, February 26: On a date with A:HB8

So on Tuesday me and A:HB8 agreed on meeting each other again on Friday, this time with no friends around so we could get to know each other better. I met her at a central point within the city and from there on we walked towards one of the pubs, where we started to talk while enjoying a drink.

Things went very well. We sat across each other and we looked each other deep into the eyes when talking. We had some serious talks about many different subjects all night long and we had a lot of cocky/funny conversations. We touched each others hands a lot, grabbed each others arms, poked each other from time to time, all went very playful. This was the first time I was going to use some routines that I've read about. I did the five lies test, the ABC test and the Kangaroos in Denmark test. All of them succeeded... I was building rapport. She was smiling all over, she had a wonderful time and she started wondering how I knew she was thinking about kangaroos in Denmark. This was the position I wanted her to be in and it worked.

After a while we decided to switch locations and we found a nice pub with live music. It was very crowded so we were standing very close to each other while listening to the music. A lot of people tried to pass by, so it was an easy excuse to put my arm around her waist and to start kinoing a bit. She responded by putting her arm around my waist too and she started to dance a bit, which I followed up. It was nice, we had some talks in between, some cocky funny moments and she was still smiling. I gave her some soft kisses on her head, which she accepted with giggles and a smile. Not much later a friend (P:HB7) of her passed by and invited us to go salsa dancing with her. So we did, why not.

I told her and her friend that I've never been salsa dancing before. Thank god both of them only went once before as well. Once we were there, there were some more friends of both girls and this was actually good. This time I was in a place where I knew no one, except for that girl and her friends who I just met a couple of minutes ago. A:HB8 wanted to dance with me, so I took off my jacket, reached out my hands and started to do what the others were doing, or well at least kind of. As both of us were total newbies to salsa dancing we were struggling on doing the exact steps others were doing, but we connected very well. Our fingers played with each other during the dancing, we smiled a lot, we came closer, we took distance, came closer etc. We also did some other moves where I held her back with my hand, while holding her other hand. We were very close at that stage and my leg ended up between hers, which was pretty intimate. I told her that this part was my favorite out of the dance styles we used so far, she agreed with me. After a while we stopped and I started talking to her friends as well and became friends with them instantly. They liked my personality and just me being there with them. This all looked so good, the problem is I couldn't isolate her anymore at that moment. Probably I should already have kissed her when we were alone for several hours.

We decided to go to a night club and we ended up straight on the dance floor. We got into the music, dancing, chatting, it was all a lot of fun. Incidentally I started to dance with A:HB8 and that was a lot of fun. Her friend P:HB7 was dancing with a guy who was part of our group. The rest was just dancing by themselves. At some point I told A that I had to go to the toilet. She responded immediately by saying that she had to go there too. So we went there together.... Isolation!!!!

We went to the toilet and I told her I would wait outside until she finished (girls always take way longer on the toilet). She agreed and when she was ready she wanted to walk back to the others straight away. I was like "damn"... but I grabbed her hand...

Me: Hey, do you remember that game we played before? The one with the lies?
She: Yes, what about it?
Me: I won that game, so I think you should by me a drink
She: Ahhh, yes OK you're right.
Me: No, I'm just kidding, but I would like to get a drink anyway
She: No, no, I'm going to buy it for you as you bought the drinks in that other place, it's my turn now.
Me: OK, no problem...

So we went to buy the drink and I thanked her by giving her another kiss on her head. I had given several of them during the night. I was hoping to take it a bit further, but I hesitated and didn't go for it, again!... I hate myself for being such a pussy in such situations. I simply don't know how to just go for it. So we went back to the group. Started dancing again. The guy who was dancing with the HB7 gave me a big smile. I think he assumed that me and A kissed, but of course we didn't. The night went on like the way it went before. Dancing by ourselves, sometimes with A, some kinoing, some talking, from time to time a kiss on her head.

When the music stopped we walked towards home. The guy and HB7 were walking hand in hand. The other guy and 3 other girls walked by themselves. Me and A were also walking together, holding each others waists. The two of us walked behind the others for a while, talking, kinoing, cocky/funny talks. I gave her another couple of kisses, but she never looked like going further than that. Either I didn't see it, or she really didn't want it. I don't know. Maybe she was shy of doing that in front of her friends like the situation I'm always in, maybe it wasn't like that at all. I started to wonder and just let it go. We caught up with the others and started talking to them while still holding each other. I told the others about me having to leave the city soon.

HB7: FR, you can't leave, you have to stay here
Me: No, I really have to if I don't find a new job within a week, I already booked my ticket
HB7: We want you to stay here.... look at HB:8 you are holding, you can't leave her alone
HB8: Ooooohhhhh HB7, stop.... don't say that. (I think they talked about me before and HB8 told HB7 that she liked me????, at least that's what I made out of that)
Me: I'm very sorry, I would love to stay longer, but I think this is not going to happen. But all of you are invited to come to my goodbye party of course.

We walked further and I really thought about the words HB7 was saying just before that. Maybe HB8 told her that she liked me and maybe she would like to take it further than what we are doing now. Maybe she wants me, but maybe she doesn't go that far because she knows it can't get anywhere serious as I will be leaving. Maybe she would have taken the step if she knew I was staying longer and there was a chance we could be together for a longer time. She doesn't seem to be the girl that wants a one night stand anyway, so that could be the case. Not much later we all separated and went to our own places.

What do you guys think?
Should I have kissed her when I was with her for hours?
Should I have kissed her during salsa?
Should I have kissed her when isolating her in the bar?
Should I have kissed her on the way back home?
Is she not interested in me at all?
Is she super interested in me, but waiting for me to take the step?
Is she super interested in me, but not willing to go further because it can't be a serious relationship in case I leave next week?

Thanks, I would love to have some feedback on this.
By the way I'm meeting her again on Sunday to take some professional photographs (I used to be a photographer for four years, a couple of years ago and would like to restart my career again, slowly)

Hi FR!

I hope you're really happy about such a result. I wish I had a date like this! I'm really happy for you. You know I'm still learning, but you should have kissed at each opportunity! Easy to say right?

You're photographer! I'm learning photgrapht too! You could teach me some stuff one of these days!

_________________
On the Road to Manhood, my new learning journal: http://bit.ly/TEVapM
(My old learning journal http://bit.ly/eYRWL4)

Thanks man,

Easy to say indeed, but I feel you are right in what you are telling me.
Unfortunately she canceled today's photo shoot and I texted her back that it was not a big deal and that I would see her in two days (on the famous Tuesday, which is going to be my last famous Tuesday...).

I tried to go back to my first post to follow up your advise to make my journal more readable, but there seems to be a 500 minute editing limit on this forum, making it not possible to do so. Oh well, I will try to do it from now on then.

I don't know what I can learn you about photography from a distance, but if you have any questions feel free to ask. I think it will take a while before I get myself over to Brazil.

So... as said in the previous post the girl I was dating on Friday canceled our photo shoot. It went like this:

Text message:
Hi FR, how are you? I hope that you had a good day! Tomorrow it's not possible for me to meet you to take the photos. We will find another time, thanks... A.

As I'm leaving she knows I have no credit on my phone, so I sent her a Facebook message in return.

My Facebook message:
Hey, how are you?
I think it was very nice on Friday. Too bad you can't come today, what happened? No worries, we will plan it for another day. The weather is so nice today, it would have been very good to take photos. Anyway, talk to you soon and see you for sure in the pub on Tuesday....FR

Her response:
Hi, I'm fine thanks, and you? I'm happy that you liked dancing with me on Friday, actually you are made for dancing. I will organize a time to make the pictures this week, see you on Tuesday and make sure you enjoy your last week. xx A.

This sounds like a positive thing to me, I really think I should go for the kiss-close on Tuesday.

Don't worry about the older posts! Start from now. You'll get more people helping you make it easy to read for them. Fucking Italian is doing a good job on that I think.

No worries for the photography classes... I just need to take my camera and practice... but as you guess, something else is on my mind now!

Kiss her FR! I won't mind if you get a kiss close before me!

_________________
On the Road to Manhood, my new learning journal: http://bit.ly/TEVapM
(My old learning journal http://bit.ly/eYRWL4)

Man, you are totally overthinking this!

What you need to do is to get out of your comfort zone. I see that you are comfortable kinoing and that is wonderful. But you never go out of your "zone".

If in a social situation you never feel uncomfortable doing something, it means you're not growing in this. You should let yourself go. You should PUSH yourself.

A lot of people think "OMG if I kiss her and she refuses me I'm going to get slapped and rejected it'll be awful", so they decided to stay in the comfort of kinoing and don't go further.

There is a limit in what you can do with a girl in a given circumstance. For example, in your previous post, you set up the limit at the kiss. Was the kiss the limit? The answer is: you don't know! Nobody knows!
You will never know what the limit is UNTIL you pass it! And trust me, a LOT of times the limit is MUCH MUCH further than expected!

Most probably the limit on your night was a passionate sexual make out, or even a handjob or something. But, who knows?

You will never know your social limit of what you can do, untill you pass the limit. Yes, you have to EXAGERATE. Once you reach the limit you can honestly say "I couldn't go further than that yesterday night".

You have to push yourself out of the comfort zone!

Remember: there is no growth in comfort and there is no comfort in growth!

Thanks for punishing me man, and you're totally right!
If I don't leave my comfort zone tomorrow I'm going to blame myself a lot.
This should be done, at least give it a fucking try and see where it goes...damn!

Tuesday night again!!!

It was my last Tuesday night in this city and I organized this massive party with approximately 150 people showing up just for me. There will be an even bigger one at a house this Saturday as I will be leaving on Sunday.

Goals for the night
- Enjoy the night with my friends
- Finally kiss that hot Brazilian I have been dating

Strategy
- Be myself and socialize with my friends
- Acknowledge my hot Brazilian, say hi, ignore her a bit and then go over
- Continue where I left off with her
- Tell her I still need to punish her for canceling the photo shoot
- Isolate her - Kiss her

Field report
I came later than normal as my flat mates came along and took longer to prepare themselves. Right after we entered I spot the hot Brazilian, she was already there! I greeted her with three cheek kisses and did the same to her friend and I told her we were already going towards the balcony and that I would see them up there.

On the balcony I started to socialize like always with my friends and that went as planned. Not much later the hot Brazilian came up and I gave her a wink with my eye, she smiled. I continued the conversation I was having with my other friends. More and other friends started talking to me and I had kind of ignored the girl, hoping she would come over to me. She actually didn't do this and I went to the toilet. When I came back from the toilet I walked up to her and started the conversation.

Me: Hey, what's up, we didn't even talk at all so far.
HB: I knowwww.... I couldn't find you, you were talking to all these people and then you were gone.
Me: I just went to the toilet, but yes it's pretty busy, last night here for me you know.
HB: Yes, I know, but you are always busy when we are here.
Me: That's why I took you out that day, so we had some time for each other.
HB: Yes, that was very nice, and you're a good dancer, I really liked it.
Me: I loved the dancing, but I am not good at it at all.
HB: Yes you are (notice how often she start the sentence with yes)
Me: I still have to punish you for canceling the photo shoot!
HB: Nooooo, I'm so sorry for that! (following by explaining me why she canceled it)
Me: Well, that's why I need to punish you
HB: But we still have a couple of days left, we could still arrange it.
Me: Sure, we can, but I am running out of time and I have to pack and stuff like that. It's not going to be easy.
HB: OK OK, well if it doesn't happen you can punish me on Saturday.
Me: I think I have to punish you today AND Saturday.
HB: Noooo, please don't do it.

In the meantime I was KINOing her and she KINOed me back. We continued the conversation, when my SPAM came over telling me one of our friends was no longer able to get upstairs. I felt like shit as I was finally talking to my target, but then I realized it was probably a good thing to just leave her for another bit. But I also knew she had to leave within an hour after that.

I went down for about 30 minutes trying to get them in, which succeeded as I'm the man I managed to get even another 8 friends up that were downstairs waiting and being rejected. I complained to the guy at the entrance that he's being an ass (of course not in those words). I finally went up again and found my HB again amongst my other friends. Some friends started to talk to me again and I saw some random dudes trying to hit on my HB. I had to go over there and open the conversation.

I talked to the guys first. One of them I knew and the other two I didn't. I talked to them and they were having a good time with me. I was ignoring my HB, but she actually grabbed my hand and started the conversation with me. I was going closer and closer, we KINOed each other and I was playing with her hair. We had great eye contact and I moved closer to her ear when talking. She didn't resist when I kissed her cheek. I looked at her again and finally went for the kiss close. She turned her head away. I started to talk to her again and tried another time a bit later, again she rejected.

Not much later it was time for her to go. I knew this already as she told me at the very beginning that she had to go at 11pm. We started hugging like crazy and I went for the kiss close again. Again she rejected. We gave some more hugs and cheek kisses and then she left. I continued the night with friends and other girls. I will write about that in a bit, but I first wanted to have this story reported.

Results
- I had a great time all night long
- I went for the kiss close, but got rejected multiple times

Mistakes
- I did not isolate her!!! We were in front of all our friends
- I did never bring up sexual conversations with her at all in all our dates (however there was some sexual tension last time during salsa dancing)

Lessons learned
- It's not that bad to get rejected a kiss close, nobody but me noticed it
- She did not think I was a creep as we kept on talking and even hugging and cheek kissing
- I should not feel resistant when wanting to kiss a girl next time

Hey man, you pushed yourself forward, so you did a great job!

At least you tried, and now you are not wondering anymore "should I have..."
You have no thoughts or regrets, she is the one that have some ("should I have let him kiss me?")

It is a nice step in the right direction!

This is the things I've noticed you can improve:

1) lead to the kiss. Build up suspension, speak slower, look in her eye, whisper something, kino her and then kiss her. It should be something gradual, a step by step excalation of feelings and emotions.

2) give her some reason to do it, sort of a "plausible deniability". The "flake" complaint was great for the kiss close! For example, you don't bring the flake as first thing in the conversation, and then, at the moment of your kiss close, you say something like "you know I should punish you for your flake! You were a very very bad girl! You totally owe me at least a kiss! But no tongue!" (whispering, smiling and eye contact, speaking like she is the one that wants it and you are the one that set the limits no tongue) and BOOM kiss close. If she refuses like this there is something wrong with her...

3) Alternatively, hold her hands and tell her "Do you trust me?" - "Yes" - "Close your eyes I've got a surprise for you" and you kiss her. This is a weak kiss close, but still put the base for the next one! If she's into you she'll not be pissed, maybe she'll be a little uncomfortable, but you should behave like it's not a big deal and continue with the conversation as nothing happened, it will relieve her tension...
Since you have some issue with the kiss close, you can start from the "weak" ones!

Nice job FR_1978! This report is really inspiring. You went for it, you did what you had to do and you're learning from it. The lessons learned are priceless. Congratulations. Next time the kiss close won't be a problem anymore!

_________________
On the Road to Manhood, my new learning journal: http://bit.ly/TEVapM
(My old learning journal http://bit.ly/eYRWL4)

Thanks, I'm indeed proud of myself taking that step
I understand what you are saying. You know, I waited too long when I was on a date with her and on this particular evening it was difficult to be just with her. When I was running out of time, the IOI's where there I felt I had to go for it, mainly because I promised myself. If I had given it a little more time before the first try it may have succeeded. So I guess a third mistake was going too fast on the day itself, too slow in general
That was basically the way I wanted to play it, but I didn't think of telling it to her before actually going for the kiss. I just wanted to give it a go, that was when my SPAM came in to tell me her friend couldn't come upstairs and I had to leave. That was very bad timing of her. She even apologized as she's one of my best friends and she knew that I've been dating this girl earlier this week. I like your vision/idea of telling her that she owes me a kiss, without tongue
Sounds like an idea, and funnily enough something similar, not exactly the same happened later on that night. I didn't write about that yet, but I will do so shortly.

Thanks for the great feedback man.

I hope so, I know practice will pay out in a positive way, so I just have to take it from there. I'm not sure if I should try again with this same girl on Saturday as it's my leaving party, or with another girl (perhaps the one I met later on the night, who will feature in my other report).

Continuation of my Tuesday night

After my Brazilian hottie A:HB8 went home the night was still young and there were plenty of friends and potential targets left.

Goals for the remainder of the night
- Enjoy the night with my friends
- Have fun and see what happens with other girls

Strategy
- Be myself and socialize with anyone

Field report
It wasn't feeling weird to be rejected the k-close from A:HB8 and I just kept getting along with my friends. It was a great night and also a bit sad. Not much later a German girl HB7 I fancied a while ago came to say goodbye, her current boyfriend, who is another friend was there as well.

HB7: FR I have to go...
Me: Ahhh, is it that late again?
HB7: Yep, last bus into my direction you know...
Me: I know, will you be there on Saturday?
HB7: Not sure, maybe, I will try OK?
Me: Would be nice to see you there again, but let's say goodbye now, just in case

She starts hugging me, while talking close to my ear. We give each other kisses on the cheek and suddenly she kissed me on my lips. I was shocked and when I realized I wanted to go for at least one more like that she was already released from my arms. Damn... that was nice. I started thinking and thought me leaving could get me some more kisses like that today, but probably even more on Saturday.

Not much later I had a friend asking me if I saw his jacket. I had not seen his, but I realized my jacket was a bit far away from our group now, so I decided to find mine as well. I didn't see mine anymore and started to worry. This would be my second lost jacket of 2011. There was a couple (I assumed) and they asked me what I was looking for. I explained and not much later the girl found my jacket. I introduced myself to them and when the girl went to the toilet I asked the guy if they were a couple. He denied and said they were just friends. I talked a bit more to both of them and got both their Facebook accounts and invited them to my goodbye party. I have no more credit on my phone and won't get any new before I leave so no reason to get their phone number here.

FRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, I'm here!!!!!!!!
Wow... who was that screaming in my ear full of excitement? I turned around and there she was... Ass Grab girl I don't call her Ass Grab girl anymore, as I never really grabbed her ass, I just stroked it when applying kino. It is kind of a nickname after the comment of The Fucking Italian From now on her name is L:HB8.

Anyway, I responded with a hug and three kisses on her cheeks. I straight away applied a lot of kino and a guy I know but who doesn't know her looked at me in a way that basically meant: Fuck her! This went on for another while, while talking to her and she explained me why she was so late. The idiot downstairs wouldn't let her and some others up anymore. This guy annoys me for weeks already, but today he got me really angry. I went down and there were more friends waiting for me. I managed to get them upstairs. Started talking to them and lost track of L:HB8.

The night went on and I found her, lost her, found her, lost her, but actually that wasn't too bad after all. At some point the balcony became empty and I went downstairs too. I found her again and we started hugging. I had her there all by myself, so isolated her without making any effort.

L: I can't believe you are going
Me: Me neither, but I have to face reality and accept it
L: I am going to miss you so much!!!
Me: I'm going to miss you and everyone else, it's so unfair.
Me: All of you only miss one person, I miss all of you.

She gave me a big warm hug and our faces were really close to each other.
I wanted to kiss her but was afraid for rejection like earlier that night and thought about what the German girl did to me. I decided to apply that and gave her a kiss on her lips only. No resistance and more hugs followed. Then we got interrupted by another friend who lost his jacket as well. I started to talk to him and I had lost L:HB8 again in the crowd. Damn....

Never found her again that night and left home.

Results
- I got rejected the kiss-close from A:HB8 three times after trying three times
- I got two lip-closes afterwards, one present and one try-out effort from my side
- I enjoyed the night

Mistakes
- I did not manage to get a second lip kiss or more from both girls
- I managed to lose L:HB8 right after the lip-close due to some friend bothering me
- I should have told her to wait a second, instead of turning around and ignoring her

Lessons learned
- Rejection is not bad as long as you stay confident about what you are doing
- Others might have seen it and got attracted to me (I don't know if this is true)
- A soft kiss on the lips is easily done and can get you into a more intimate situation
- I enjoyed my night, even after A:HB8 rejected my kiss-close three times!

Good job man!

In few days you went from "big issue with kiss closing" to "kissed two girl in one night like is not a big deal"...

Very good job!

Your situation of "leaving soon" is particularly ideal for those kind of social interactions.

You can even make a deal of it: for example, for every girl you meet at your Goodbye Party, you can tell her something like: "You know this is my very last day here. I am giving the opportunity, but ONLY to my best girl friends, to leave a good last memories of themself with a kiss on the lips. For now only 3 girls has deserved the honour. I don't know if you deserve it yet, let me think at your behavior towards me" - put some routines here of recalling first her doing something bad to you, and then something nice to you - "Ok, I guess you've been nice enought to me. You can kiss me. But NO TONGUE, ok?"

Do you see what you're doing? You are implying that it's HER that wants to kiss you, and you are the one giving her the "chance of a lifetime" so to speak... And since you've done it with some other girls already she wouldn't reject it... at the contrary, she would crave it and try to qualify the hell out of it!

Just imagine how the "flakey kiss close" girl would feel when she sees you're kissing other girls as a "goodbye memory", while she refused you few days before!
You can play the "rejected kiss close" card for a make out with that A:HB8!