Natural game - the misunderstanding

The pickup forum seem to go through phases, natural game is one of those things where for a few months everyone goes on and on about how brilliant it is etc etc. The thing is, I feel a lot of people don't understand what natural game is.

Many people view natural as the opposite of "planned" lines and routines. The thing is, natural game IS planned; just in a different way.

In a routine, you plan WHAT you say. The opener, the comfort build, the kino, the n-close, k-close, f-close all have "lines" that you deliver. IT IS EFFECTIVE, until you encounter a new situation where the "line" doesn't make sense.

Natural game is a plan of your INTENTION. This intention is what I will be looking into and how YOU can apply it to your game.

The opener - A naturals intention here is the introduction. Generally, it will be situational - however any guy who has introduced themselves to more than 100 girls will likely have some "normal" openers, for example I will often comment on a woman's accessory such as a necklace and ask where she got it or something. In a club, mall or coffee shop there isn't always something to comment on, so you need to have a few plans in the back of your head. These "lines" are not what you plan to say though, a naturals "plan" is what they intend to do - introduce themselves.

After the opener, you tend to get to know somebody a little in most situations. If you are running on routines, you will know EXACTLY what you want to say. The problem with this is that what happens previously doesn't affect what you say which can lead to the conversation sounding strange. A natural's INTENT is to get to know the person. This is where mindset comes into play, you are not getting to know the person in order for them to feel comfortable with you. The reason you should be getting to know the person is to learn about them and if they are someone you like and therefore what your INTENT is with them. I generally put people I meet into three categories - sexual, friend, don't want to know. Before I get to know someone, they could go into ANY of those categories and even a long time after I get to know them they can switch. Many mPUA's call this screening or compatibility testing. To be able to get to know what you think of somebody you need to have this as your intent after the opener but you also need to know what you're looking for within people.

This is a perfect time to mention something I suggest you all do; write a list of qualities you like in people and things you won't tolerate in people (the later list should be short, things you really cannot stand). This allows you to put people into the sexual, friend or don't like categories.

Now, with routines, you can get stuck as you are getting to know them. Maybe they start talking about how they love roller blades or swimming, being natural means you can follow this chain of conversation as it is in sync with you INTENT of getting to know them. With a routine, you may not be able to follow it or feel the need to pull it back to another topic or line.

So, once you start to get to know someone and you have decided you are still sexually interested in them your intent switches to wanting to escalate physically. This means getting physically closer, touching, kissing all the way to sex. This is a massive section, in a routine you would normally have to split this up into multiple mini steps when really it is all the same intent.

Now, this is where something else interesting happens with natural game compared to routines. In routines, you have 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 as steps of what you do. With natural game, when your intent moves to escalation, you don't stop getting to know them better. You should constantly be screening people to see if they are someone you want to escalate with, someone you enjoy being with all while you are getting more physical. With a routine, you are focusing on something else and almost forget what has happened before. While this seems like it would decrease the amount of women you get, it actually gets you more as you don't waste time with people you end up not liking or not finding yourself attracted to. Any idiot can get laid, it's a simple numbers game - my aim is to have people in my life who I like, it makes my life better and as a result means I have more social success. A cool example of this is the people who try to fit in with everyone, nobody really likes them but everyone is alright with them. Don't be afraid of saying no to people you don't get on with.


So that is how simple natural game is, it's all about your intent rather than what you actually say.


So let's look at a practical example. Say I have a line "So what makes you more than just a pretty face?" - it's actually a rough thought of something I will ask most women. The problem is, if in my introduction I ask why she is out tonight and she tells me that it is a gymnastics social or something and I then use that line 5 min's later it basically makes me seem odd, why didn't I pick up on the gymnastics thing earlier, was I just ignoring her or am I just stupid? Either way, not great. However, my intent is still to find out more about her, I might change my line to "Gymnastics is pretty cool, but aside from that what makes you special?"


So, my question to those who read the whole post - In a general interaction from introduction to sex; give me a list of all the different intents you have!

Madals
p.s. as always, discuss/criticise my post as after all, it is just my opinion!

hey man. glad to hear another person who speaks passionately about natural game. it's definitely the way to go. all the scripted material is quite alot of rubbish, they're just things to reenact/copy. natural game enables one to think on their feet and teaches yourself to adapt to situations. i like your idea about placing people into the 3 categories. but it did seem quite weird what you did about the gymnastics girl, you should of connected immediately on that in order to link it to another conversational topic. a great natural pua is always able to link each topic to each other and to control and manipulate the interaction in any desired way.

here are some of my posts about natural game.

women like men who are observant and situational. notice things about ur target, what she is wear (clothes, jewelry etc). so if u notice something about her (do not comment on how beautiful she is) tell her about it e.g. u notice her bracelet, when talking to her, take hold of her wrist gently and say "wow this is an interesting bracelet, whats the story behind it?", there's always a background story behind women\s accessories. be situational about the environment you are in, whats happening, what do you see, make a statement about it or ask her opinion on it. being situational is much better than scripted material.

here are some of my other posts about building attraction and rapport with a girl.

one thing you should know is when to tease (push pull technique, negging etc). they should only be used if ur target is a 7.5 or above (or the girls who think they are 7.5 or above whereas in actual fact they are not). if you were to tease a girl below that rating, you would end of hurting and insulting them. in exclaimer for using negging and teasing is that one should positively validate their target before they negatively validate them. the reason to do it in this way is because one must hook their target in order to get their attention. so after the positive validation (for a set who is +7.5) you negatively validate them (tease, push) in order to put yourself at a higher level than them because at the beginning they are higher than you. the main reason why it is good to use negging is to challenge the ego of a girl of high calibre which is something that a typical afc does not do. and by doing this, it shows that u r a man that has high standards and does not go for just any girl and this will make the girl more interested and it will compel her to work harder to gain your approval because you have showed disinterest in her, told her that she does not fit your standards (negative validation). girls always want the guys that is surrounded by women and guys which are difficult to get, its a challenge for women to go after those guys.

building rapport is a very interesting process. in order to build a great emotional connection one must choose to talk about things which have deep emotional content. it does not matter what the girl does or likes, you can connect with her even if you have dissimilar interests. as you know all occupations and hobbies are completely different in their complexity, principles and structure, but there is one thing which all of them have in common/share "EMOTIONS". one must be empathetic and show a girl that u understand why she chose to do that job or hobbie by expressing the emotions that one feels when doing that activity, it shows that you're really trying to get to know her, and she will think "wow this is a great guy to talk to, he's making an effort to understand me, but wait, i dont know anything about him" and this will compel her to ask you questions and u can freely express yourself how ever much u want as long as u express urself passionately and positively. all the men dont do this at all and do not understand how much empathy is a powerful force and openly allow themselves to be perceived to see a girl superficially. you can use the concept of 'rapport' to ur advantage as well.

in order for you to build greater rapport with her, get used to asking more open-ended questions e.g. "what have you been up to?" or "What did u get up to today?", my one: "What monkey business did u get up to today?". dont use questions like "wats up hun?", thats a closed-ended question which the girl would simply answer and she wont give u much material to work on in order to reach the hook point.

and connect on her answers in a positive way. dont be afraid to tease her as well. dont be afraid to create impact. when telling a girl about a situation that happened to u on that day or in the week, give more details about it, women love details. it is also good to read the local news paper, women are usually very aware what happens in the world, u should as well. u can get her point of view on something in the news (nothing to do with which celebrity had sex with who) e.g. political, environmental, sociological etc and then she would ask you what u think and you can manipulate the conversation which can lead anywhere u want.

another way u can have an "endless conversation" is the principle of "Question, statement, Question, statement, Q, S, Q, S etc". so u ask an open question, receive the answer, and then make a statement about the last thing she said in order to ask a deeper question. this process can go round in a circle, it can go on for ages.

after you have the girl attracted to you and built rapport, here's how to make sure that you can get a definite number close and afterwards ensure a date in the future.

the way to ask a girl out is by 'offering' not asking permission, never ask "Do you want to go out tonight?" or "will you go out with me?" or "so what time are you free tomorrow?". They are all questions which AFCs do. they make a guy sound needy, desperate, dependent on doing something with her.

so before offering a date, let her know how busy and sociable you are. girls want guys who are difficult to get. usually in rapport with girls, to make sure she does not flake on u after the first meeting, there's a pua principle called 'seeding'. this is when u in plant an invitation in the conversation with her but u havent actually invited her. for example, you could say that "im thinking of going to this really cool bar sometime next week which i heard about". now usually when a guy mentions to a girl about going to a bar, club or party that u know, the girl will always expects the guy to automatically invite her. but what you would do is just to mention the party or the bar and continue on the conversation. this will catch the girl off guard and the girl will be thinking "hey, this guy is pretty cool (depending on the attraction and rapport), but he has just mentioned this party but why is he not asking me out?". she will think this and will be more compelled and desperate for you to ask her and she realises that she needs to work in order to get the invitation. women want to go to things that are hard to get into, exclusive and even more if they are told they cant go. people always want to go to things when they have been told they cant go. sounds so forbiden and interesting.

dont be in the position to be waiting for a girl to call you, women are lazy or busy but definitely unreliable. you make the contact. but when u contact, dont sound like you are too eager to see her, bad sign to show that ur desperate. in between texting a girl, act like u dont care if she ever replies back. i know it sounds crazy, but it does not feel good waiting, checking ur phone every so often seeing if the girl replies. have the frame of mind that u dont care about a reply, then u will feel less anxious, and more focused on ur game.

Hope that i have helped. happy gaming dude

Thanks for an awesome reply man!
Just wanted to pick up on this: I totally know what you mean, I was just using it as an example of how it is different. In that situation I would have picked up about the gymnastics and spoken about that for a while and transitioned into something else but for the sake of the example I was making I ignored that to keep it simple

I really enjoyed this post madals and its funny because the other day a thought similar to yours about the intentions crossed my mind as well. ill try and keep this short because i know nobody enjoys reading an essay.

basically when i first started pua i wanted 2 things: 1. to be able to meet random women i encounter in my everyday life. 2. too improve my chances with women that are already in my day to day life (work etc) that i dont already have. so to start i went with routines because they were pretty self explanatory and easy to use. I had very good results from routines, it was a blast to try some goofy magic trick, joke or story on a girl and 99 percent of the time i got a very positive reaction. WHICH WAS GOOD. but this didnt help with my second goal (hooking up with coworkers) because once you use a line, u cant use it twice.

so after i ran out of routines to use but didnt have the success i wanted i decided to look into natural game because all the best ladies men i know are naturals. so for the past 2 months ive really been focusing on just becoming a natural and in this process i had 2 revelations (which youve obviously had)

1: all the naturals i know when talking to a woman simply have an intended reaction they try to get out of the woman during the interaction. they dont just say lines and HOPE she responds positively. they have her reaction already in their head and they just make it come out of the woman. i think this helps to keep you in the moment rather than in your head. this might be super afc but hey, i aint no pua yet.

2: there is alot of calibration in natural game and you can get a decent idea of a womans potential just from the looks she gives you. during my interactions i can usually tell pretty early on who i will only really be able to have a sexual relationship with versus who i can actually spend time with. with routines you dont really calibrate too much besides when to start kino and when to switch routines up.


and to answer your question, now my main intentions right off the get go is to build sexual tension to the point of the woman jumping me haha. unless i think i will actually be able to spend time with the girl a little more first.

in the end it seems like being a natural with women is more of a lifestyle/personality where as routines are more of a formula to try and get A woman.

I would make yet another distinction. First, there are naturals, magicians with women and clueless about PUA. Second, there are natural game PUAs, who do as you guys say above, and who may even try to improve their overall life. Third, there are routine monkeys who memorize a lot of shit to be able to fake what the first two groups offer.

As for the intentions bit, I agree completely. My personal intention coming into this was to be able to boink every girl in my path that turned me on. And while my success rate is not nearly 100%, I have done rather well. Since I've become more successful, I've been trying to forget as much about PU as possible. In field, I now just want to meet people that enrich my life (in and out of bed). On this forum, I entertain myself with what I'll term applied psychology.

A few thoughts:

1. Just how many man/woman situations can you think of? Sure, every situation is unique but there's really no reason to over complicate.

2. Most of what is written in the 'natural section' and what most people in this forum think of as 'natural game' = NO GAME. Instead of coming up with anything creative, most just copy, simplify, and paste pu cliches. "Hi my name is _____, what's your name?" - IS NOT natural game; it's just plain boring and sucky.

3. Not 'planning specific routines' is a good idea as long as you're more creative than an eggplant. Otherwise, plan, plan, plan. Write, write, write. Revise, revise, revise. This is the process that strengthens your abilities. Pick up, whether you call it natural, organic, or vegan, is not knowledge, it's an ability.

4. If you're getting stuck with routines, you haven't OWNED enough of them. Think about #1 above. Seriously, how many different unique situations can you think of? It's not that there are so many different situations, it's just that most guys read a few books and think they've got it. Write more, revise more, practice more.

5. Pay attention in school.

6. This is a pick up forum. The goal is to pick up:
a. Why such the interest in natural game? Why not focus on GETTING THE GIRL first?
b. I don't think I've seen any examples of 'natural game' in this forum. ("Natural" is not a specific game. Some guys beg for sex all the time and get it.- This would be a natural beggar game.)
c. You could own several openers, routines, and closes and have a grand ol time meeting, greeting, befriending, and fucking plenty of girls.
7. And ^this would be the 'natural gay shampoo boy game'. I don't care what you think this is, a dude being interested enough about a girl's bracelet to ask her for a story is the most UNNATURAL thing I've seen in this forum. . . unless you are in fact a gay shampoo boy. . . then this kinda thing I suppose would be pretty natural.

the main advantage of natural game is that it forces you to actually PAY ATTENTION.

About opening and etc. Practicing your abilities as a conversationalist, can solve the "opening" and "transitioning" problems easily.

If you're learning from books by yourself-routines will be useful.

Advantage of routines is that if you have AA problems, you'll feel more comfortable if you have a "magic line' that your "guru" sent you.

And yes I agree that significant part of natural game is when many things you were thinking about become part of who you are. That's when you're a natural.

My list of 4 things every natural shall make part of who he is:

1)Good conversational skills.
2)Good mindset.
3)Good body-language.(often comes from good mindset)
4)Proper escalation.

If you mastered these 4-you're natural.

IMHO

P.S. mickeyjackson21 - awesome reply. Some great tips right there-definitely implementing Q,S,Q,S and open-ended questions. I absolutely forgot about "seeding" as well-thanks a lot!

@1. The point of natural game is that you don't have to think of situations. You don't have to plan. Instead, you just go with it, so whether there are 2, 10, or a million situations, your success rate should not differ. Not the same with routine game.

@2. Correct, that's not creative, but then again: it's not what you say, it's how you say it. I find natural game deemphasizes "what" you say and it all about "how" you say whatever you do say. As for most natural game = no game, that's only true for kids who are plain boring once you subtract their routines. People with actual natural game are funny and creative on the spot.

@3. Totally agree with one caveat: don't plan and write. Go out with nothing in your back pocket. It'll teach you to be fun, creative, and intriguing on the spot.

@4. See 1. Also, I emphasize the practice part of your advice.

@5. ?

@6. But I think ultimately the goal is to get laid for more than running through the manual you've got memorized. I agree that canned game may quickly lead to success, but it begs the question of why not subtract all the smoke and mirrors and own the underlying characteristics at the heart of it. Afterall, no girl will fuck you for that magic trick you did, the hand reading, or whatever else you use. She'll fuck you for what she infers about you from you doing all those things. Just learn to own those things she infers without the magic tricks.

In the end, I endorse natural game over canned game for several reasons. First, I personally find it fun to be myself and spontaneous all the time and to get laid for it. Second, it teaches you interpersonal skills that canned game teaches you to fake. Third, it is more sustainable with people you meet again, since I am not aware of PUA routines for friends, FB, FWB, or LTRs. Fourth, canned game is the type of "scam" that makes women feel betrayed by the PUA and thus gives PUA a bad name.

Can you name any school of pick up that does not advocate these 4 things above?
"It's how you say it" is the mantra of people who have nothing better to say than poorly reworded cliches. People with 'actual natural' game isn't really an issue in this forum because I'd say we're looking at close to 0%. Point me to ONE post created by a natural.
So you're asking people with no experience, no knowledge, and no idea to go out without a plan? This is the formula for failure for not only PU but just about ANYTHING in life.
So go ahead and subtract your smoke and mirrors. How do you plan on demonstrating the "underlying characteristics at the heart of it all"? Go ahead and just name ONE SPECIFIC thing. I'd love to see just how natural you are.

Natural game is the biggest myth ever known to pickup.

PUA's get suggested an idea (or structured model) by instructors, they try it out, keep what works, discards what doesn't. They practice practice practice until they formulate their idea on how human interactions go.

Naturals do the same, only they go through it when hormones take over their body. See hot girl, try something, doesn't work, practice practice practice, he's a natural now. Knows what works but without all the PUA terms attached to it.

It's ALL routines, whether you think about them consciously or not is irrelevant.

_________________
An approach a day keeps the guru away.

i agree with you sir. i think a lot of the labels put on natural game are really just marketing buzz words.

_________________
Happily Married Since 12/30/09

Take what's useful, discards what isn't.

That's what natural game is, except let's say instead of remembering DHV stories or whatever, you see how they're structured and use it in conversation-e.g. comedy:

instead of having bunch of jokes in your head, remember how to joke, and you'll be able to turn any convo into a fun experience.

Principles>material

About 4 things mentioned above. Everybody advocates these things, not everybody teaches them effectively. Trial and error is a good way, but I believe more in putting yourself into situation that requires this skill excessively. E.G. let's say if you have AA you make yourself game hottest girls with the worst outfit, cripple your game as much as you can(you can go to club with buddies and agree to make each other do some shit which will make PU VERY difficult e.g. come up with stupidest lines, make each other do a stupid dance in the middle of the convo-whatever) You'll learn much faster. Trust me.

I was in my college's speech team and was doing STE(speech to entertain-kind of stand-up comedy) I thought I'm gonna shit my pants when I had to perform for the first time. There were bunch of people(10-100-depending on competition), I survived, but sucked. I performed about 30 times last year(in different competitions) and got pretty good at it. After that approaching girls/being in front of many unfamiliar people-doesn't seem like a big deal.

Practice makes good, perfect practice makes perfect.

Coming back to Principles>Material.

The second type of speech that I did (and succeeded the most) was impromptu(improvisational speaking)

There we had to learn so called "outlines" how to construct your speech, how to arrange it, how to keep timing, eye-contact, moving during the speech etc. but never the topics, because every time topics were different and you didn't now what you're going to be talking about before you actually get the paper with the name of the topic on it.

You can't have material for every possible situation, but you can have an "outline" for every possible topic. (Including PU)