OK. I understand some of you guys hate it when someone starts a ethical discussian, but I am just amazed.

The point is as following: As an AFC it is easy to be ethical, you have virtually no options and go with whatever comes along. As a PU, you get more succesful (see below) and you do have options. But if you want to stay an honest guy (important for my inner game) you have to be clear to all "options" and make choices at some point. I find this difficult to do, but trust on my instincts and keep thing honest and make choices.

Just to illustrate: When I started PU at the end of 2008 I was a WBAFC... in 2009 I had 3 kiss closes (a doubling of my lifetime total). In 2010 I had 3 F-closes... and now we are in 2011.

I have already kiss closed 3 girls and F-closed one. THings are speeding up. But that's OK. I'm getting the hang of this PU thing. I find myself in situations I had never ever prepared myself for.

Beginning of January, I had a one nighter, but was totally in love with her. I got AFC and screwed it up. We text sometimes, but it probably won't amount to another meet....

So in january, me and a wing attended a speed date. 20 dates in 3 hours. What counts is your first impression. I noticed I can calmly present myself (mostly thanks to pickup) and be attractive. I had 5 matches, including the two hottest ones. 1 thought I was to young, another was also dating my wing (he saw her first, so she is his), and I dated the other three.

Date nr 1.
Totally not attractive enough. A year or two ago, I would think myself lucky having a date and F- her anyway. But now I noticed I was not attracted and instead of thinking how to get thing comfortable for sex, I was thinking how to make things comfortable enough for rejecting her. Luckily she was also feeling no chemistry, so I could explain it on the mail later and she was grateful for it.

Date nr 2.

The hottest woman of them all in my opinion. She was totally in to me, wich I thought was strange at first. She is of Latina origin, and I needed some time to calibrate (Dutch are not used to such up front signals). But I kiss closed and even deactived a cockblocker that got in the way of my timebridge. This was two weekends ago.

Date nr 2 and 3 Last weekend.

Saturday I dated nr 2 again. Wow she is hot. I took her to a bar and a movie. I know the guys behind the bar, they kept staring at my date's rack and were more quiet then usual. It was a great feeling. I felt super confident.

The movie was a lot more sad then I expected; the tears were rolling over her cheeks and I comforted her... later that night we got to my place and things got really emotional and a little sexy. Sex didn't happen though, but I did feel commited and we talked about it.

Later in the car when I dropped her off at her place, she asked me about the other women. I told her that she was the only one. This wasn't thrue though. I was having a date the next day with the last one of the matches. I lied I guess because I thought that it wouldn't matter anyway, I just wanted to have that other date... and it would probably not work anyway...

Date nr 3.

The next day I met up with number 3. Still having the fresh memories of the night before. The kissing on the couch, the tears on her cheeks... I felt bad about it. But I also noticed I was being super relaxed about being on a date and working my way along Mystery's lines towards the kiss close.... I pulled it off. When we were outside I enjoyed the signals and toying with each other. I kiss closed her and even pushed for a one nighter, but that didn't work.

I honestly explained nr 3 about nr 2. I also told her I was in a "slut" mode and just going from fuck buddy to fuck buddy, until a women would "seduce" me into committing to a relationship.

Monday and yesterday I had some casual contact with both, saying how wonderful it was. I was thinking about what I was doing. One of my pillars of attraction is being honest and outspoken... I felt a powerful seducer on the one side, but a weak liar on the other...

Today I had some contact with numer 3 on the mail, and she is smart. She asked me: "do you want to meet up with me again or are you staying in slut mode? " . I rang her and told her I rather did both. But she clearly stated that she really liked me and could not share me... She was being honest, and I decided to reward her with the same honesty. I told her that nr 2 is my primary choice and she is asking and showing the right commitment, and I am going to go for it, because it feels good.

Nr 3 is going to be at my place next friday, together with a friend of mine and his girlfriend, so then it is officcial I guess.

My point is this. I could have kept lying. And F- close them both. But I decided to be honest and go for just one... I can always re initiate contact with nr 3 it thinks don't work out.

I'm really wondering how you guys out there in the community would have acted on this, and what you think of my actions?

thanx guys.

Bucc.

_________________
I could not tread these perilous paths in safety, if I did not keep a saving sense of humor. -Admiral Horatio Nelson

I voted on the side of being unethical. Why? Because I find that it is important in the initial phases of seduction to have actual options so that you do not become needy. I would rather have both of them and then let one go when I know for certain that the other one is all mine.

When you have more than one, you are in-control to see them whenever you want. You can spend time with one and be away from the other for extended periods of time. I find that when you do this effectively, the girl values you so much because time with you is scarce and limited. She has to. That makes them invest more in you. Then you choose the one you want because she will value you more than she would have if you are only with her (since she will value time with you)....

I did not wish to over-write, but I hope you understand becuase this is so freaking powerful. It is a tool I use to make a girl fall heads-over-heel for me...

_________________
(I LOVE THIS COMMUNITY!)

I read your post, but I still don't understand what this topic is supposed to be about.

Is it about your dating experiences so far in 2011?

Or is it about everyone's ideas on just general things about ethics?

Sorry, I'm lost, but it was a good post!

Maybe edit your original post and put right at the top, what you want people to contribute, this is a subject I've thought a lot about.

Thanx Mack, I re read the post, and her is some clarification.

I'm used to always lose the game, and found it very easy to be ethical about dealing with girls and being honest with them. Now that I am being more succesful I realize that it is very difficult to stay honest and ethical, becuase I have to say no to oppertunities that would not even arise would I still be the AFC I once was.

(that's why I gave such a long intro, I hope this clarifies).

greetz

Bucc.

_________________
I could not tread these perilous paths in safety, if I did not keep a saving sense of humor. -Admiral Horatio Nelson

i'm glad to chip in my two cents, for what it's worth. i will probably bring a distinct perspective to the topic, as i am not a pua, but a mere rafc.

actually, this subject has been on my mind a lot lately. i'll expand on why. when i was younger, i was actually a bit of a natural. but several unfortunate situations in life in addition to a crazy-horrible long term relationship put me into an afc mindframe, of which i am just now escaping in the past month or so.

it's weird because it's like a switch has flipped and i'm a "new person", yet at the same time, i'm the "old me". kind of cool.

ok, ok, on to the ethics, but i thought a little background was necessary. i've got a little bit of an inner turmoil when it comes to the ethics thing. because way i see it, this is pua (pick up artistry), not kha (keep her artistry). i read a lot of posts by people who come here and say "i am going to lose her" or "god, help me get her back" and i'm just not sure that stuff is best addressed on a pickup advice website.

thing about it is, i'm not even certain that i believe in functional monogamous or even long term relationships. so, what does that mean to me? it means that out of the options you posed, one of them was (at least in my mind) likely impossible, and that is to keep one chick.

so, to answer your question, in my mind, that leaves only one valid option left "keep lying and fuck them all", but i say do it WITHOUT a malicious heart and at least try to leave them better than you found them.

i would absolutely love to hear some testimonials or opinions of the actual pua's on this site that use this knowledge and "overall way of being" to keep/maintain a healthy relationship? and what their takes on this is?

it would tie directly into ethics and your original question.

I'm ethical in the way that I am honest with the things I want from her. If I want to fuck her, I'll just look her in the eyes and say damn, I'd fuck you silly. If they're up for it, we both win. And if she's not up for it, both of us also win, as I'm not her type and she's not mine. There's nothing wrong with what I do, and the girls I fuck also seem to appreciate it.

You were a West Bromwich Albion Football Club? What the hell is WBA?

i think keeping it real is ethical and also attractive.

@trixta

haha, WBAFC= Way Below Average Frustrated Chump

_________________
I could not tread these perilous paths in safety, if I did not keep a saving sense of humor. -Admiral Horatio Nelson

Buccaneer,

I have to agree with Lorenzo321. Until you are in a relationship with one of the girls, you are fair game and should be able to keep your options open.

Don't commit to a girl so soon. If you think one of the girls you're talking to is too insecure to accept the fact that there are other prospects in your life, then lie to her. Consider it a white lie, because in the end, you two are both better off because of it. Afterall, if you stick with her, it'll be because you felt she was the correct choice and won't be wondering what could have been with the other girls. She should be happy in knowing that you chose her amidst the competition.

You have the right to be sure.

The Leading Man

You're not cheating. Fuck them both.

If you want a LTR, ditch the other one and be happy.

_________________


"Their compliance is,
'Does she grab your hand?' F*ck you! I want to grab her mind. If I can
grab her mind, she'll be grabbing whatever I want, any way I want her to." - Ross Jeffries

This.

Ethics is a social construct. You are a person, you follow your own rules. Right and wrong is your choice.

_________________
Inner game is the core, outer game is just an expression of it

Okay. It's saturday night 1:21 midnight... I have an interesting update about this:

Nr 2 came over to my place fridaynight. It was a test. My friend was there with his girlfriend, she is much younger, and I wanted to see my HB9 cougers reaction to that.

Things went wrong. Big time. We had a nice evening the 4 of us, around 11 Nr 2 and I were alone. She didn't want to stay at my place so I drove her home like we agreed. In the car she talked about the girlfriend of my friend. Trying to figure out if I wasn't in need of a girl like that. I did not respond. She also was very stressed about some bad things going on in her life. I noticed it, but could not find the words to talk about it.

In front of her building we kissed each other goodnight and just before I drove off, I asked her if she was OK and perhaps some R&R would be in order. She agreed. The seduction game was on!

In her bedroom everything went wrong. She insisted on being insecure and it got to such proportions that she needed to be alone (she decided this during foreplay!) and kicked me out of her room and back into the cold streets at 3:30 AM!

I said nothing and we cancelled the Valentine celebration of saturday (AFC alert) and agreed not to communicate for a while.

Saturday I had a great party with some friends. Did zero game.

Sundaymorning I woke up. And I did the following in the assumption that me and nr 2 were finished.

I texted nr 3... told her cocky funny that I still owe her a date. She reacted furiously.

It was not going anywhere, but I made my offer. I could only wait. So I thought it was wise to send nr 2 a mail about how I felt about the whole thing and the poem I had already wrote her. It was just something to get off my chest. I wasnt beggin or hoping for anything.

Monday:

Nr 3 texts me the date is back on. She was still interested. We agreed to see each other this saturday night.

Wednesday:

Nr 2 texted me. She loved my mail. Was super sorry for what she did, wanted me back and wanted to explain herself. I pushed for seeing each other this fridaynight.

Friday.

Saw nr 2 again. She was hot. But had her period. Things got really intimate, emotional and sexual. The last thing was not planned, but we could not help ourselves. So F-close.

Saturday.

Left nr 2's house around 2:30PM. At 4:00 PM nr 3 arrived at my house. I gave her a little tour around town we had a drink. I was IODing a lot and did zero game. I kept thinking about nr 2 and felt guilty. I'm sorry, but that is just the way it is...

Tonight, we dined and nr 3 gave a heavy IOI about wanting to sleep over. I said no. This is crisis, but also progress. I think being succesful in this field also means you should have options and should sometimes say no.

However. Options are still open with both now. But both now think that I am being exclusive. That is the only thing I don't like about this. I still think being honest is being attractive.

I really feel this is a steep part of my learning curve. Forgive me if things seem AFC, but I would really love any comment one of you guys have on this. I think in my most interesting moments of pickup and self discovery I should share my lessons and ask for advice also.

Thanks again. Goodnight.

Bucc.

_________________
I could not tread these perilous paths in safety, if I did not keep a saving sense of humor. -Admiral Horatio Nelson

To me personally, the question of Ethics is not "Should I be honest at all times and in all circumstances." The question of Ethics is, "What do I think the power relationship should be between myself and my dates at an early point in knowing them?"

I want something out of women, which is sex. I may want other things as well, but I definitely want sex. They want sex too, but unlike guys they tend to confuse it with a lot of psycho-babble about monogamy, security, perceiving themselves to be "wasting their time" with someone, and other sorts of picky Consumerist behaviors. Really it seems like most of the time it's a woman's job to say "No." They spend a lot more time saying "No" than saying "Yes." I don't respect that kind of an attitude towards sex, where the woman actually wants something, but imposes a lot of social drama on her decision making process because she thinks she's going to be "not valuable enough" or "not a good person" if she just goes and has sex. So if a woman is just trying to psych herself out and give herself excuses to say "No," I'd just lie to her and I wouldn't feel bad about it. One kind of honesty is self-honesty, and I don't think all women are honest with themselves about their sexual attitudes and behavior. Rather, they want to control the man, because that's easier than dealing with themselves as sexual beings.

Where I do draw the line, ethically, is if having sex with a woman is going to lead to emotional abuse. i.e. if she's very fragile and just can't handle things right now. "I don't wanna have sex" is an attitude that makes me think, yeah right, sure you don't, you're just giving me shit. "I'm gonna fall apart if this goes the wrong way" is a totally different thing. I'm not basically into taking advantage of people or deeply hurting them. Having sex doesn't mean you're taking advantage. When you deeply hurt someone - doesn't even have to be sex - that's taking advantage.

Basically I'm saying that having sex isn't "hurting people," in and of itself. It's just sex, and people are dishonest with themselves about that. They've heard the sex negative messages all their lives so they think they have to respond to sex that way.

I think I see your dilema. It can be solved easily. Read Chief's outer game(here on the forum) Part about managing expectations. That's what you need to do. In the beginning mention what you actually are looking for. Honestly. If they don't want the same thing, go find someone else.