Thank you, voice of intelligence. The other thing you might be assuming is that a virgin is worth less than a slut. Obviously I don't need to correct that logic.

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31 and still figuring it out.

What is a PUA? Rather, what do PUAs do and what ethics do they (should they) follow?

What a PUA does: Seduce women
Ethics to follow: Leave her better than you found her

A PUA is experienced. He has been with multiple women. A virgin is inexperienced. She has been with no one else before. If a PUA has sex with a virgin, the PUA is her "first." He is very special and dear to her, but the PUA cannot possibly return the same sentiments. He can never see her in the same way she sees him. Does this sound fair?

Those who don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves would pay no heed to any concept of fairness in this matter, but the fact of the matter is that "Leave her better than you found her" is the PUA community's number 1 moral mantra. The saying can be interpreted in many ways, that's true, but seducing a virgin leaves too much room to do more harm than good as a PUA.

Admit it - we're fickle. Sooner or later, we're going to want to move onto the next woman. As pickup artists we're not going to be satisfied with enjoying just one work of art. Moving on is not going to be so easy for the girl who gave her virginity to you. And it's not just a matter of you being her first lover; it's also a matter of the fact that you're the first man who may have made her orgasm and released all that oxytocin in her system. She's never experienced that with anyone else before, and you have no idea what that feels like because we men don't get an oxytocin rush in response to orgasm. I can only assume from past experience that women experience a very deep level of attachment to their first lovers. Sure, some women may want to get rid of their virginities just for the sake of losing their virginities, and may have no initial desire to become attached to the first man they fuck, but their bodies always tell them something different from their conscious intentions. As PUAs we already know this.

It's a lot more trouble than it's worth.

What is a normal person? Well, that can really vary, but generally speaking I would say that a normal person is a serial monogamist, as in, they have LTRs... and they generally aren't too picky about their girlfriends. They "settle" a lot.

I would say that a "normal person" would more often be better qualified for taking a girl's virginity because they do not possess the conscious intention of seducing a plethora of women just to gain exp and level up.

PUAs are players. We play for fun. More often than not, this shit isn't just a game for virgin girls. It's some serious shit. I don't want to take someone else's serious shit and trivialize it for my own selfish physical desires. That's fucked up.

There are plenty of sexually experienced women who view sex as something you can have with no strings attached, or whatever the hell you're looking for as a PUA. Virgins have no idea what the fuck they're doing. Leave the children alone and play on your level.

What you're saying is a PUA will not appreciate a virgin as much as an AFC. I agree with you, for the 2 years I've been here, I've steadily learned to disrespect women and think of them as lesser humans and sometimes even just objects of enjoyment (not just sexual). After realizing I could no longer connect with a female or even be friends with one, I figured out how fucked up reading this kind of shit regularly made me. I took some months off, and I'm better than ever, I'm not just a PUA, I'm fucking Casanova.

It's possible to be skillful and comfortable with women (PUA) and still appreciate and love them (AFC). You've clearly gone full blown womanizer and you need to remember how to appreciate women again. The fact that you're trying to rut your way to a "level up"- for fuck's sake, this isn't Pokemon!- shows how skewed your thinking has become. I'm hoping most of the guys here don't think like you, but I'm not that optimistic.

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31 and still figuring it out.

haha i think someone missed the irony.

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"You don't want girls to think you suck dick at fucking pussy"
-Seth (Superbad)

This is often the opposite of what PU teaches. If you develope those problems it's probably because you either picked very sucky role models or you yourself are still struggling to come to terms with the world.

There is no point attacking Chief for ironicaly using a pokemon analogy his post without any background knowledge shows that he values women and their feelings. Though you still hope that people don't think life chief.... what?

Chiefs post doesn't seem to be about how "PUAs can't appreciate virgins" it was about how PUA's are in a position in thier life from which they with all probability cannot return a virgins feelings, which is a perfectly normal position for a human to be in.

How is not being able to return another human's feelings a perfectly normal human position? In medieval texts, a maiden (virgin) is a person that is "worth" more than other people just because they have an intact hymen. Chief seems to support this barbarian position by saying a girl isn't even worth his time if she's a virgin. Bluntly, as a PUA I enjoy the intimacy of sex. When you say that virgins deserve special SPAM, when you elevate them above "regular" women, you are sending a message that women should not be having sex.

Just to demonstrate how patently ridiculous the logic in this post is, you're saying that if a girl admits that she's a virgin, you'll turn her away like Style saying she deserves a man that will appreciate her more. Okay, so if she goes out and screws the first available man (quite possible if the object of her affections totally rejects her sexual advances) and is no longer a virgin, THEN you'd pursue her? You make virginity sound like an evil curse (which for some men and women, it is).

Pick up DOES teach you not to appreciate women. It teaches you abundance mindset, it teaches you to be "fickle" as Chief says. Mystery, the Jesus of Pick Up was a man child that could not have an adult relationship, who didn't think of women beyond the pleasure they provide. Do you think that's a coincidence? The "good role models" you're talking about are probably posers that haven't been with a lot of women. You have to realize a lot of "MPUA's" are better at seducing desperate men than women. The FACT of economics is, the more you have of something, the less you will value it.

Sorry if I'm hard to follow, I know I'm right I just can't put it concisely. But anyway, the people that understand where I'm coming from are the ones who've probably already quit or maybe my results with pick up were totally unusual, so I'll give it a rest. Thanks for your time anyway.

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31 and still figuring it out.

You should learn to read. Also when someone calls Mystery the jesus of pick, its like a period in a sentence, you know to stop reading.

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"You don't want girls to think you suck dick at fucking pussy"
-Seth (Superbad)

I'm pretty well read, tell me what you think I misunderstood instead of just being insulting. I wasn't clear, Mystery isn't my jesus, but he is jesus in the bible of The Game.

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31 and still figuring it out.

I think what chief meant, or at least what i interpreted was that for a guy taking a girls virginity, just so he can get laid, is selfish and the outcome will be her being way more emotionally invested than the guy. The girl will feel a strong connection and 'love' as its her first time experiencing the rush of oxytonin and dopamine through her body and the fact she hasnt been this intimate with anybody before. The guy will just have had sex and moved on or maybe kept her around as a fuck buddy.

Do you not see the problems in this? who will get hurt when the relationship is cut off?

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"You don't want girls to think you suck dick at fucking pussy"
-Seth (Superbad)

I thoroughly disagree with Chief and you saying that all us PUA's are only out for exp, notches on our belt and fuck buddies. That is not what makes me a PUA. I agree you shouldn't use virgins just for sex or fuck buddies, but that's because I don't think you should USE people PERIOD. Sex is a great past time activity, but if that's all you want, you'd be just as well off playing WOW. One day you'll have women crawling in your bed and you realize all the sex you've had doesn't fill up the emptiness of not being able to meaningfully connect with a woman.

Also, everybody experiences dopamine and oxytocin in relation to sex; not just virgins, so that is an invalid argument.

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31 and still figuring it out.

Carry on

Really? This is what you got out of it? ...
I on the other hand am hoping most of the guys here (i) actually UNDERSTAND what is being said, and (ii) take it into careful consideration.

I was with my boyfriend for a little less than a year when I lost my virginity to him. Despite the comfort I felt with him, despite how much I knew he cared for me, despite the fact that we'd done a great deal of other things that made sex not such a big step, -despite this and a lot more- losing my virginity to him still affected me a great deal, both in the moment it happen, and for a long time afterward.

Girls speak of the disappointment they feel- how sex for the first time isn't at all what they expected... it's short, it hurts, it's awkward, it's anything but romantic, etc. But there's another strand of disappointment there that is rarely mentioned... I saw losing my virginity as some sort of threshold to womanhood. I expected to feel like a "woman" and instead I came out feeling like a little girl- more scared, more vulnerable, and more insecure than I had ever been in my whole life.

How do I explain to you that feeling of loss? I felt as if I was losing myself. And the vulnerability! I think back now at how my boyfriend held me when it was all over- what would have become of me if he had just got up and left? I could take a guy leaving now... but then? Then, in that moment, I would have been ruined.

How do I explain to you the feeling of abandonment? I felt abandoned by my boyfriend when he had to leave to go home that night. Imagine that! I remember I was sensitive to the little things for so long- him not calling me when he said he would, him postponing our plans, him not answering my messages ASAP, him talking to other girls... I overlooked this in the past, but all of a sudden these things seemed to be screaming signs of abandonment.

And how do I explain to you the feeling of attachment? That boy was witness to a very unique moment in my life; it's something I'll never share with anyone again. Sure, I loved him before he took my virginity, but what I felt for him thereafter could almost be classified as obsessive to a certain extent. I depended on him a lot, and for a long time I felt like he held a part of me.


Anyway, I consider myself lucky to have lost "it" with this particular guy. He was patient and reassuring, but more importantly, he stayed with me. I really needed him to stay.

You're a PUA. You enjoy seducing women. You love them, and you appreciate them- there are so many women out there you want, and want to get to know, and you now have some knowledge on how to go about getting them.

You're a PUA. Natrually, you move on... most virgins will need you to stay. Do you see the conflict here? It's not about you not being worthy or less qualified... it's about you wanting to enjoy and experience women, and it's about her needing you to remain dependable and present.


-Roz

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NOTE: I'm taking a break from the site, and hence will not be responding to any messages!

I don't see any problem taking her virginity if your plans are really a LTR. I do see a problem if you just fuck her and then say "Sorry baby we really had a great time let's just leave it like that" Since I already took a girl's virginity I myself know what special care most of them need for a little while. And it's just not fair... You're having sex because it's fun. For a virgin girl it is anything but fun. It's a painful gift she could give to only one guy and are you a PUA or not you must appreciate it. Otherwise you're a douche.
She could think she did something wrong and would totally become insecure about sex. Just don't you see what a mess would you create if she's already confused for losing her virginity and you, the one from whom she expects positive emotions and backup just leaves her? Think about this just a little. I know it's hard as a man but if I could do it then you can too.

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What I like in life is nothing more but living it.

dude ur an ass. Your tottally putting words into Chiefs mouth. His job as a moderator and leader of this forum is to teach guys community ethics, which are NOT barbaric ( is that how you spell that? lol) if you understand them. Its just the truth. If you cant handle it or you disagree fine then you belong on Pua Hate, not on here.

As far as virgins go Roz is right. You need to have a special connection with a girl if you want to take her virginity. Anything but would just be mean and selfish that simple. A womans virginity is a crazy thing emotionally for her. Thanks for clearing it up for us guys here Roz your post definitely informed a lot of guys on this forum.

However I do think there can be exceptions to the LTR comment MynameisFisher talked about. I know 2 friends of mine that had sex and its not weird at all for the girl. This guy is one of her best friends and she really wanted him to do it. I think as long as the girl is happy and she thinks about this decision for some time its like any other life decision ya know? Its going to happen eventually and its not going to be perfect all the time. It also does depend on the girl. But for most of the guys on the site especially the inexperienced guys trying to get better listen to Chief and dont take that step. Its like heroin lol it may sound all cool at first but it will fuck u up later the consequences 90% of the time outweigh the benefits.

Another friend of mine is in an open relationship has LOTS of gfs. He isnt a PUA but he definitely does "leave them better". Girls love this guy he doesnt seem to hurt anybody, hes a real nice down to earth guy. He has good relationships with his exes. Outside of the occasional drama that he experiences in his life with friends ive like never seen him lose it. Never talked shit to anybody guy or girl. Hes just really good with girls. Now this one girl begged him to have sex one night and he just did it not thinking of it at all. She was 20 not drunk but still Big mistake bro. A lot of emotional regret on both sides came later. As succesful as he was with women. So just because your a great Casanova or jesus of pickup and girls love you just don't do it unless you have a very very special bond with her.

-Aiden

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aiden k. baker

"Research shows that during ejaculation, men release a cocktail of brain chemicals, including norepinephrine, serotonin, oxytocin, vasopressin, nitric oxide (NO), and the hormone prolactin." per http://www.livescience.com/mysteries/07 ... sleep.html

"It is during orgasm in both men and women that oxytocin floods through our bloodstream." per http://www.sensualism.com/sex/orgasmic.html

"In humans, oxytocin... is released during sexual orgasm in both men and women." per http://oxytocin.org/oxytoc/index.html

You're on the internet, it is a wonderful research tool, there's no reason you have to pull "facts" out of your ass. If you don't release oxytocin, it is because you have a chemical deficiency and there are SPAM for that. In fact, not releasing oxytocin creates that detachment effect that characterizes most womanizers. IT IS NOT NATURAL, IT IS NOT HEALTHY. Sex without attachment might sound good on paper, but you'll learn that it sucks.

To reiterate my position, AGAIN. I think PUA's are capable of pair bonding and LTR's, therefore I think a PUA can be a dependable partner NOT ONLY for virgins, but non-virgins as well. I can't be any clearer than that. You people act like virgin girls are the only ones who want a guy to stick around, I'm saying that you don't have to subscribe to the tag em and bag em mindset to be a PUA (particularly because your oxytocin will make you resist acting like that). Humans are social creatures, we crave monogamy.

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31 and still figuring it out.